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A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2017, 02:42:45 PM »
AG,


I'm not sure where you got your info as it pertains to bats.  Back in my playing days, metal bats were far far better than wood bats by pretty much any measure.  Lighter, better on off-center hits, ability to go opposite field, distance, etc.  I tried using a wood bat a few times in batting practice and could barely get the ball out of the infield, but with metal bats could regulary hit it deep to every field.


They did change the college bat back in 2011, but they still all use metal bats in the college game.  Its only in a few summer leagues that they have wood bat only rules.

Kalen,
I'm about to tell you more about baseball bats than you probably want (or need) to know.

ALL metal bats that are BBCOR certified at ANY age level have a 3 oz drop in the weight to length ratio.  That number was settled on because the best wood bats are also typically -3, but obviously wood bats are much less uniform in this than metal, and many are only -1 or -2.  What is VERY different is the balance of a metal bat, so that it FEELS lighter in motion.  (You can think swingweight here.)  There is a LOT of weight in the handle of a wood bat; there is very little in the handle of a metal bat.  I could go on, but you get the idea.  Also, quite obviously, the effective hitting area of a metal bat is significantly bigger; the low minor leagues are littered with players who could hit with metal bats, but aren't nearly as good with wood.  Which is why, as I pointed out earlier, really serious baseball players, even at the HS level, tape up the barrel of a wood bat and use it in the cage for BP; better feedback and good practice at really "barreling" the bat and getting it squared up.

As I mentioned earlier, the reason that metal bats came into use in amateur baseball (and softball) many years ago was cost, and NOT performance.  Good wood is in short supply, and professional baseball gets most of it.  As an example, when my son was playing HS baseball in Atlanta, he played in a summer wood bat tournament sponsored by John Smoltz.  Each team was provided 6 brand new Louisville Sluggers at the beginning of the tournament; none of the six made it through the first game.  By the end of that game, all of our players were using their own wood bats, most of which had to be replaced a couple of times a summer.  (My son had a maple bat called a Southern Hammer; it was a monster, and lasted two summers, but it cost us well over $100.)

However, as the technology for metal bats improved, though, problems developed with the speed at which the ball was coming off of the bat; the golf term for this is "smash factor", which is the relationship of swing speed to ball speed.  THAT was what the 2011 rule change to which you refer; the COR of bats was greatly reduced, and EVERY metal bat in use at that point became instantly illegal.  If you go to a game tonight, you'll see the umps inspect the bats in front of both dugouts prior to the game to see what the seal on the bat says and whether or not it is legal.

In short, the "bifurcation" in baseball is NOT about the way the game is played, it's about cost.  And the rules governing metal bats seek have metal bats that mimic wood bats as much as possible, though it is an imperfect match.  Metal bats were "rolled back" for safety reasons, not the way the game is played.  So when the "example" of baseball is trotted out as a justification for bifurcating golf, the analogy leaks water like the Titanic.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2017, 03:19:13 PM »
Methinks you servants of modern technology believe the technology actually benefits you far more than it actually does.

You scream hypocrite when someone uses modern technology, but wishes for an older era of equipment. Guess what, you can't buy older era equipment. No one makes balata wound balls, so where are you going to get them? Old clubs get bent, and can't be bent back to play properly. The heads break off of persimmon drivers and fairway woods so if you want to preserve them, you only take them out once in a great while to play.

I'm getting bored reading your rants.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2017, 06:16:19 PM »
Hypocrisy would be playing a modern driver and wanting an anchoring ban.
I have always putted conventionally yet I think the anchoring ban is ridiculous (legislating against innovation of technique)
IF it were an advantage everyone would do it.
I play a modern driver as I still (attempt) to compete.Playing a wooden driver and balata in a field where no one else is would render me more obsolete than I already am ;D


Whether I think a rollback would help me personally or not is not part of my opposition to poorly regulated technology.
Watching the fields we play on and the great Major courses bastardized is my objection-with NO end in sight.


Playing a modern driver, yet being an advocate of reining in technology does not make anyone a hypocrite anymore than being against the three point rule in basketball, while embracing it as an effective strategy as a coach.
Why wouldn't you embrace a shot that gives 50% more points per successful conversion?
Understanding its role as a weapon doesn't mean you embrace it as good for the game.


I ALWAYS laugh when people say they and others would quit the game if they started hitting it shorter from a rollback.
I teach people EVERY day who say they carry a 7 iron 160 yards and a driver 250 and then Trackman shows them they are off by at least 10-15%-yet none of them quits the game.
People have NO idea how far they hit it and wouldn't even notice unless they were a very good player, and they woud adjust withing 2-3 rounds..... The same as one does when it's cold.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 08:00:17 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2017, 09:02:12 PM »
noun
1.
a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs,principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially aperson whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2.
a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude,especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his orher public statements.
Its pretty simple folks.  Not doing what you say is hypocritical. Lets not try to alter the language while altering golf courses 8) 

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 03:50:09 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2017, 10:20:02 PM »
The year Old Tom Morris was born

Peter Pallotta

Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2017, 10:30:03 PM »
Arbs - to paraphrase a line from Unforgiven:

There are two types of golfers in the world: those who are flat bellies, and those who wish they were flat bellies.

I know which one of those you are 😃
Me? I wasn't a flat belly even when I actually was a flat belly, so for me it's all gravy now - cool Hogan blades or oven mitt ugly titanium. (Oh, and the gravy itself - I love it poured over a basket of chips!)

So I guess there are *three* types of people...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 10:31:59 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2017, 10:58:08 PM »
noun
1.
a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs,principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially aperson whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2.
a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude,especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his orher public statements.
[/size]
[/color]
Its pretty simple folks.  Not doing what you say is hypocritical. Lets not try to alter the language while altering golf courses [/font][/color] 8) 
Ciao[/font][/color]

Which part of they no longer make would balata balls didn't you understand?
???
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2017, 04:31:44 AM »
I teach people EVERY day who say they carry a 7 iron 160 yards and a driver 250 and then Trackman shows them they are off by at least 10-15%-yet none of them quits the game.
People have NO idea how far they hit it and wouldn't even notice unless they were a very good player, and they woud adjust withing 2-3 rounds..... The same as one does when it's cold.
+1
Most folks have no idea how far they actually carry the ball through the air....and that's before variables like ball type, quality of ball striking, heat/cold, wind, humidity, rain, altitude etc etc are taken into consideration.
atb

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2017, 06:49:57 AM »
I teach people EVERY day who say they carry a 7 iron 160 yards and a driver 250 and then Trackman shows them they are off by at least 10-15%-yet none of them quits the game.
People have NO idea how far they hit it and wouldn't even notice unless they were a very good player, and they woud adjust withing 2-3 rounds..... The same as one does when it's cold.
+1
Most folks have no idea how far they actually carry the ball through the air....and that's before variables like ball type, quality of ball striking, heat/cold, wind, humidity, rain, altitude etc etc are taken into consideration.
atb


Good news Thomas,
I've called the Royal and Ancient and the USGA-they're good with me playing alternate forward tees in my next event as long as I play balata balls and wooden woods. (side benefit though I get to use my Eye-2 wedges) They do not want me or anyone else that favors a rollback (or an expansion of bifurcation which already exists-see grooves) to be labeled a hypocrite.


Also, no doubt we have posters on this board that favor Universal health Care, free College for all, subsidized Clean energy, and have voluntarily raised their tax contribution accordingly.
Because not doing so would be incredibly hypocritical from what I've been told by some on this thread.


Playing by a rule while working to have it changed (see Warren Buffet and tax law) is not hypocritical but rather lends credibility as the person is seeking to end a practice they benefit from for the good of the game (or in Buffet's case-the country)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 06:58:03 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2017, 07:11:03 AM »
I teach people EVERY day who say they carry a 7 iron 160 yards and a driver 250 and then Trackman shows them they are off by at least 10-15%-yet none of them quits the game.
People have NO idea how far they hit it and wouldn't even notice unless they were a very good player, and they woud adjust withing 2-3 rounds..... The same as one does when it's cold.
+1
Most folks have no idea how far they actually carry the ball through the air....and that's before variables like ball type, quality of ball striking, heat/cold, wind, humidity, rain, altitude etc etc are taken into consideration.
atb


atb


I think even today a 250 yard carry is a long hit for a club player...nowhere near 25% of golfers carry a drive that far.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2017, 07:16:54 AM »
I teach people EVERY day who say they carry a 7 iron 160 yards and a driver 250 and then Trackman shows them they are off by at least 10-15%-yet none of them quits the game.
People have NO idea how far they hit it and wouldn't even notice unless they were a very good player, and they woud adjust withing 2-3 rounds..... The same as one does when it's cold.
+1
Most folks have no idea how far they actually carry the ball through the air....and that's before variables like ball type, quality of ball striking, heat/cold, wind, humidity, rain, altitude etc etc are taken into consideration.
atb


atb


I think even today a 250 yard carry is a long hit for a club player...nowhere near 25% of golfers carry a drive that far.


Ciao


I'd go with 1-2%
See we agree on something.
Actually we're probably pretty aligned on this issue-expansion of bifurcation is fine with me rather than a rollback.
Ironically, the first noteable bifurcation-Eye 2 wedges-REALLY hurt my game as I had built my wedge game for 30 years around those bounces/design-almost no grooves were left but still not allowed.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2017, 07:32:24 AM »
To be fair Jeff, I the only reason why I don't like the idea of a rollback is because I think courses are already too long...hence I would prefer bifurcation.  Some of my favourite courses would be mucked up with green/tee proximity if a rollback happened.  Its selfish, I know, but I like the closest tee to green course to be centred around a 5600-6200 yards. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2017, 07:44:34 AM »
To be fair Jeff, I the only reason why I don't like the idea of a rollback is because I think courses are already too long...hence I would prefer bifurcation.  Some of my favourite courses would be mucked up with green/tee proximity if a rollback happened.  Its selfish, I know, but I like the closest tee to green course to be centred around a 5600-6200 yards. 

Ciao




More courses could adopt that yardage/configuration with a rollback
i.e less walking back and less sets of tees required/desired
In a WORST case scenario for you, if a rollback occurred and courses were altered again, the walk would at least be forward from the green to the tee, rather than the current backwards so many classic courses here have.
The absolute worst I've ever seen was Gailles links as it was set up for the Open Q final stage.
80-120 yard walkbacks nearly every hole to contrived tiny tees-all for scorecard length
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2017, 08:05:07 AM »
To be fair Jeff, I the only reason why I don't like the idea of a rollback is because I think courses are already too long...hence I would prefer bifurcation.  Some of my favourite courses would be mucked up with green/tee proximity if a rollback happened.  Its selfish, I know, but I like the closest tee to green course to be centred around a 5600-6200 yards. 

Ciao




More courses could adopt that yardage/configuration with a rollback
i.e less walking back and less sets of tees required/desired
In a WORST case scenario for you, if a rollback occurred and courses were altered again, the walk would at least be forward from the green to the tee, rather than the current backwards so many classic courses here have.
The absolute worst I've ever seen was Gailles links as it was set up for the Open Q final stage.
80-120 yard walkbacks nearly every hole to contrived tiny tees-all for scorecard length


Jeff

I don't get it...if a tee is close to the green then the yardage is set.  Rolling back the ball makes that yardage play longer.  I think many courses already have a yardage set where the closest tees from the greens is a long course....especially modern courses.  Yes, walking forward is better than walking back, but its best just to walk 25 yards (at most) to a tee...period.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2017, 01:57:15 PM »

Jeff

I don't get it...if a tee is close to the green then the yardage is set.  Rolling back the ball makes that yardage play longer.  I think many courses already have a yardage set where the closest tees from the greens is a long course....especially modern courses.  Yes, walking forward is better than walking back, but its best just to walk 25 yards (at most) to a tee...period.

Ciao

Perhaps it would be instructive to identify the modern architects that are building the long tees near the previous green. Tom Doak certainly claims to build the standard tees near the previous green.

I have always advocated restoring the spin characteristics of the previous era balls. If you wanted a ball that spins easily, you got a ball that spun a proportional amount off the driver, i.e. high spin. If you wanted a ball that doesn't spin off the driver, you got one that didn't spin off the wedges either. The current balls are over-engineered.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2017, 03:50:06 PM »
Nearness of tees to previous greens.
And then on the next hole you factor in the differential for lady golfers - which per Garlands comment elsewhere was circa 67%
Say tee for men on a 300 yd hole would be set at 300 yds and located close to previous green, the tee for ladies would be 100 yds further up the fairway at the 200 yd mark?
atb

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2017, 06:32:32 PM »
Sean
What courses don't have backwards walks to tees ?
Can hardly think of any golden age or UK courses that don't.
Certainly you would agree that currently walking backwards multiple times is a more onerous than walking forwards...which you eventually do anyway.
Can't imagine a rollback increasing a walk anywhere.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2017, 07:31:26 PM »
I'd be happy with 1935 or 1980. 


More variance in shots for pros and scratch players.  For high handicappers, the ball stays in play more with reduced distance and allows for faster, more enjoyable play. 


But, any forced roll back would frustrate many in the short run and would surely be detrimental to the game.  Just think how angry all of the PXG owners would be.  Also, most young players have built their games around the equipment.  It would be unfair to them. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2017, 08:16:55 PM »
Sean
What courses don't have backwards walks to tees ?
Can hardly think of any golden age or UK courses that don't.
Certainly you would agree that currently walking backwards multiple times is a more onerous than walking forwards...which you eventually do anyway.
Can't imagine a rollback increasing a walk anywhere.

Jeff

A lot of classic courses have a lot of holes without backward walks to the daily tee...or at least walks which are so short the direction is of no consequence. Besides, my point was that the best spot closest to the previous green is set in stone.  If that spot is used for the tee, the yardage of the hole is set in stone.  I can't see how a rollback doesn't make a huge percentage of daily tee holes play longer unless forward tees are built.  I agree, going forward isn't the end of the world, but I think most of us appreciate a flowing course which includes minimal green to tee walks. To me this is one of the biggest problems with large dunes.  Getting tees next to greens is often quite difficult. 

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2017, 08:26:19 PM »
Sean
One advantage of a rollback is distances between back and middle tees could be less but...given a rollback is unlikely ......
Don't you think new courses should have the BACK tees very near the green so No ONE is walking backwards and there's  elasticity for future length  increases
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2017, 08:38:48 PM »
Sean
One advantage of a rollback is distances between back and middle tees could be less but...given a rollback is unlikely ......
Don't you think new courses should have the BACK tees very near the green so No ONE is walking backwards and there's  elasticity for future length  increases

Jeff

No, I am selfish. Back tees should be the walk back.  Why make everybody else walk a long way to the tee when the back tees are for so few?  Elasticity for modern courses is over-rated...the courses are already longer than they need to be. I think sustainability and affordability are the more important aspects of design and this would mean smaller footprint designs are the way to go. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2017, 09:09:43 PM »
Sean
One advantage of a rollback is distances between back and middle tees could be less but...given a rollback is unlikely ......
Don't you think new courses should have the BACK tees very near the green so No ONE is walking backwards and there's  elasticity for future length  increases

Jeff

I think sustainability and affordability are the more important aspects of design and this would mean smaller footprint designs are the way to go. 

Ciao


Bingo
Shrink the scale
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BCowan

Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2017, 10:06:32 PM »
Sean
One advantage of a rollback is distances between back and middle tees could be less but...given a rollback is unlikely ......
Don't you think new courses should have the BACK tees very near the green so No ONE is walking backwards and there's  elasticity for future length  increases

Jeff

I think sustainability and affordability are the more important aspects of design and this would mean smaller footprint designs are the way to go. 

Ciao


Bingo
Shrink the scale


There are a decent amount of 6900 golden age courses on under 150 acres.  We don't need bad golfers deciding where good golfers play, statist.  The condiments in the clubhouse and water to run the dishwasher are more money then to maint the tips tees on golden age 6900 yard course.  These constant BS posts backed by no numbers from any respected keeper.  I have many friends that are keepers and they would laugh at posts like these. It's why so few of them post here outside of the click.  Guys on here jetting around for golf are here talking footprint  ::) ::)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 10:10:21 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2017, 05:23:02 PM »
Sean
One advantage of a rollback is distances between back and middle tees could be less but...given a rollback is unlikely ......
Don't you think new courses should have the BACK tees very near the green so No ONE is walking backwards and there's  elasticity for future length  increases

Jeff

I think sustainability and affordability are the more important aspects of design and this would mean smaller footprint designs are the way to go. 

Ciao


Bingo
Shrink the scale


There are a decent amount of 6900 golden age courses on under 150 acres.  We don't need bad golfers deciding where good golfers play, statist.  The condiments in the clubhouse and water to run the dishwasher are more money then to maint the tips tees on golden age 6900 yard course.  These constant BS posts backed by no numbers from any respected keeper.  I have many friends that are keepers and they would laugh at posts like these. It's why so few of them post here outside of the click.  Guys on here jetting around for golf are here talking footprint  ::) ::)


You and Tiger been hanging out?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BCowan

Re: Equipment & Golf Course Architecture - What is the right year?
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2017, 05:29:17 PM »
Sean
One advantage of a rollback is distances between back and middle tees could be less but...given a rollback is unlikely ......
Don't you think new courses should have the BACK tees very near the green so No ONE is walking backwards and there's  elasticity for future length  increases

Jeff

I think sustainability and affordability are the more important aspects of design and this would mean smaller footprint designs are the way to go. 

Ciao


Bingo
Shrink the scale


There are a decent amount of 6900 golden age courses on under 150 acres.  We don't need bad golfers deciding where good golfers play, statist.  The condiments in the clubhouse and water to run the dishwasher are more money then to maint the tips tees on golden age 6900 yard course.  These constant BS posts backed by no numbers from any respected keeper.  I have many friends that are keepers and they would laugh at posts like these. It's why so few of them post here outside of the click.  Guys on here jetting around for golf are here talking footprint  ::) ::)


You and Tiger been hanging out?


Nice deflection there. U were served. 

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