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Tom_Doak

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Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« on: May 22, 2017, 08:49:08 AM »
I was in Florida on Saturday night for the Donald Ross Award dinner to honor Alice Dye.  Many thanks to Ian Andrew for passing on my request to attend to the ASGCA board, and to them for letting me in the door.


Mrs. Dye is still sharp as a tack, and her brief remarks were very warmly received by a large contingent, which included Jack and Barbara Nicklaus, and Herb and Natalie Kohler who flew in for the evening.


Mrs. Dye receives great credit for her efforts to make the game more playable for women golfers, and for educating all of the rest of us on how to do likewise -- it's not exaggerating to say that she did it almost single-handedly.  But I don't think she gets nearly the credit she should for the role she played on Pete's courses.  That first summer I worked for them on the construction crew at Long Cove, there was a palpable sense among the crew that, as one co-worker put it, "Nothing is really finished until Miss Allie likes it."


One of the hardest things to do in golf course design -- especially for those of us who work out in the dirt and make it up as we go along -- is to maintain a sense of the course as a whole.  Is it too easy, or too hard, or as it should be?  When we are working in the dirt, we're not out playing and seeing other courses very much, and it's very easy to lose perspective.  What's more, when our friends come to visit, they're generally enthusiastic, and urging us to make it even stronger or wilder, which is usually the last thing architects need, especially if they are good players themselves.  Mr. Dye liked to toe the fine line between difficult and "too difficult," and Mrs. Dye was the one person he relied on to tell him if he was going too far, or alternatively, not far enough.


There would be a lot more great golf architects today if only they had someone like Alice to keep them in line.  Sadly for us, she is one of a kind.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2017, 08:59:43 AM »
P.S.  I think it goes without saying, but I should have said directly that I believe Mrs. Dye was perhaps the most deserving recipient of the award, ever.


Who was the least deserving winner?  Well, the only other year I attended the meeting, when Mr. and Mrs. Dye brought me along even though I was just shy of 23, was in Palm Springs when Dinah Shore was given the award.  Hearing her break into song [softly] during her speech was very memorable, but I'm still not sure what she had to do with promoting the art of golf architecture.


Nevertheless, in reading back the list of winners, I got stuck on James Rhodes, who won the award in 1981.  Nobody at my table knew who he was.  I checked the ASGCA site yesterday, and he's listed as "governor of Ohio," so I went to his Wikipedia bio to see what he'd done for golf.  But most of it was about his sending the National Guard into Kent State.  :o

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2017, 09:55:39 AM »
Good post Tom, thank you.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2017, 10:12:55 AM »
TD,
Sounds like Governor Rhodes acquired the dirt needed for Wilson to elevate the Ross greens at Scioto.  I'm sure there is more...here is a link regarding the greens:  https://books.google.com/books?id=MRyvpKPoiQkC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=james+rhodes+golf&source=bl&ots=YXbmbq5dbI&sig=eceAEIQEPRt6T-TVPpbdRgxpEuE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDia7J1YPUAhVh4YMKHQjTBtMQ6AEIYDAN#v=onepage&q=james%20rhodes%20golf&f=false
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2017, 10:43:09 AM »
TD,
Sounds like Governor Rhodes acquired the dirt needed for Wilson to elevate the Ross greens at Scioto. 


Mike:


You know better than anybody, that the ASGCA is not giving out its big award for helping Dick Wilson !!   ;)

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2017, 10:52:28 AM »
Very astute. I missed that.  I'm really curious now..are you sure he was the James Rhodes they honored?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2017, 10:54:15 AM »
Very astute. I missed that.  I'm really curious now..are you sure he was the James Rhodes they honored?


Their own web site listed him as governor of Ohio, otherwise I would have thought I was mistaken.


EDIT:  I looked up the list of past presidents, since they often have influence on such decisions, and see that Jack Kidwell [Mike Hurdzan's former partner and mentor] was ASGCA pres. the year before the award.  He was based in Columbus, and worked on several state park golf courses.  So I guess Governor Rhodes was good for Jack Kidwell, and that must be good for golf course architecture in general.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 11:01:28 AM by Tom_Doak »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2017, 11:12:39 AM »
Yep and he was also president of the AAU.   :) :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2017, 11:23:34 AM »
It's neat to think: if we lived in an oral culture/tradition instead of a written one, almost the entire history/wisdom of golf course architecture would still available to practitioners today. Alice could share what Pete had shared about what Ross had shared of his memories of  Dornoch, when Old Tom Morris was sharing his thoughts about the early days.

Peter




 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2017, 11:27:37 AM »
It's neat to think: if we lived in an oral culture/tradition instead of a written one, almost the entire history/wisdom of golf course architecture would still available to practitioners today. Alice could share what Pete had shared about what Ross had shared of his memories of  Dornoch, when Old Tom Morris was sharing his thoughts about the early days.



Peter:


I'm not sure that Tom Morris ever spent more than a day in Dornoch, and Donald Ross wouldn't have been very old then.


But Ross DID work in Tom Morris's shop in St. Andrews as an apprentice, so he would have had some valuable memories to share.  I don't know with whom he shared them.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2017, 11:33:19 AM »
T - if I tried to highlight other/parallel traditions in gca (e.g. the CBM line or the Thompson line) I'd probably get the details there wrong too; but I can't think of another profession/creative field - other than maybe jazz - where today's top practitioners are so closely linked to the past via the words of the living. 
P

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2017, 03:18:50 PM »
It's always worthwhile to hear the thoughts of those personally connected to others, as it lends a perspective not otherwise considered.


Having said that, I have tremendously mixed feelings about Pete Dye, and by extension, Alice Dye. And it all gets back to my own personal (mis)conceptions of how the game is played, versus the ideas of those in the know. It seems to me, with the small number of PD courses I've played and the few that are on the tube, that his courses overly emphasize discrete options. I personally believe the game of golf is a non-discrete game. I realize most will dismiss that as beard pulling, but I think it has real meaning as to how the game is enjoyed. I will someday start a thread addressing this more directly, but it's worth mentioning here, I think.


My limited experience with Pete Dye is that shots are either black or white, there is very little gray. You either in good shape, or you're dead, trying to determine your drop. And call me crazy, but I just don't think that's how the game is meant to be played or enjoyed.


I do think PD (and AD) understand the pro game in a way I never can or could. But I cannot escape the feeling that I understand the way most people play golf better than either as well. And I shudder to think that AD is a moderating influence on PD. Yikes. What does that say about Mystic Rock, Pete Dye Golf Club and The Ocean Course?


Feel free to tell me I'm crazy or biased, but please at least offer some sort of evidence. PD's autobiography is one of the things that drove me to think about architecture, and in a personal sense, I want to love the guy. But in my limited experience, well...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2017, 03:57:28 PM »
Note to Tom and Bob Crosby -


Volume Two of Tom's Little Red Book Mau well feature a sentence or two from the opening post of this thread.


Matthew
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2017, 04:20:09 PM »
Note to Tom and Bob Crosby -


Volume Two of Tom's Little Red Book Mau well feature a sentence or two from the opening post of this thread.


Matthew


Well, it's being printed as we speak, so, not really.  But I've written previous thoughts about Mrs. Dye's influence on Pete, which are included, and are fairly similar to what I wrote above.


Meanwhile, everyone should pile on Geoff Shackelford's site to see how he disagrees with me.  Fun stuff !

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2017, 04:32:38 PM »
I think Geoff is right on his main point that it did improve a previously awkward hole.


As for Pete's approval, I'm guessing the Tour didn't need it and only kept him in the loop as a courtesy.  But isn't this true of any course?  Once you're "done" with a project does the designer ever get contractual say after that?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2017, 04:45:41 PM »
I think Geoff is right on his main point that it did improve a previously awkward hole.


As for Pete's approval, I'm guessing the Tour didn't need it and only kept him in the loop as a courtesy.  But isn't this true of any course?  Once you're "done" with a project does the designer ever get contractual say after that?


A few of the Tour pros have it in their contracts that the developer is not allowed to change a course for x years without their permission, if they want to keep the brand name on it.


Mr. Dye never had a contract like that, as far as I know; he was never going to sue anybody for anything.  He figured it was better to maintain a good relationship with the clients and try to defend his work that way.  He did that at the TPC for 30+ years, but when he couldn't do so any more, they made this change.  Geoff insists that they were respectful about it, but Mrs. Dye's comments seem to contradict that, and Geoff does have more reasons to side with the Tour than with the Dyes.


I don't disagree that the hole was "previously awkward".  I believe that was the very intent of the design, and they've turned it into just another focus-group-tested drivable par-4, a type all too common in the modern era.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2017, 05:00:50 PM »
Seems to be a fair rebuttal Tom,


If awkward was the design intent, then the change was certainly a failure.


P.S.  Do any non-tour players such as yourself or others ever get those kind of stipulations in your design contract?  As much as I hate to see a owner change things afterwards, the fact remains that the course is the property of the owner to do with as they please....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2017, 05:11:32 PM »
Do any non-tour players such as yourself or others ever get those kind of stipulations in your design contract?  As much as I hate to see a owner change things afterwards, the fact remains that the course is the property of the owner to do with as they please....


Kalen:


I'm well aware of the latter; I learned all I needed to about that from my very first project, and adjusted my attitude accordingly.


I've never put such a clause in one of my contracts.  Friends [and attorneys] have suggested it, but I try to think about it from the client's perspective, and if I was the client I would never sign something like that.  At the same time that it's a show of strength in power negotiations, it's kind of a sign of weakness to even put it in there, as the architect.  I agree with Mr. Dye that it's better to stay involved, and I haven't had too many bad experiences with that since High Pointe.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2017, 05:26:12 PM »


Meanwhile, everyone should pile on Geoff Shackelford's site to see how he disagrees with me.  Fun stuff !



You seem to be holding your own in the fight but it looks like the fix is in.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2017, 06:15:23 PM »
My bet is no architect other than an employee of the tour or a member of the Dye organization would have taken the job to change the hole.  The fact in this is that it's a Pete Dye course.  The design of the hole is just varying opinions. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2017, 06:52:28 PM »
I don't get why everyone is trashing the old 12th as a bad hole. Maybe the fact that it offered a blind half wedge made it unpopular? I would take the old 12th any day of the week over the new 12th.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2017, 07:00:00 PM »
My bet is no architect other than an employee of the tour or a member of the Dye organization would have taken the job to change the hole.  The fact in this is that it's a Pete Dye course.  The design of the hole is just varying opinions.


Mike:


Well, no one in "the Dye organization" is going to do it when they know it's not his style and Alice objects to the idea.


I think you're wrong though that nobody from the outside would have taken the job.  There are lots of guys who would love to get a hole on TV and would have no qualms about stepping on another architect's toes.  Even Mr. Dye's.

Mark Kiely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2017, 07:07:23 PM »
Great, interesting post about Alice, Tom! Cool she was honored that way.


Maybe a moderator can splice off the "New 12th at TPC Sawgrass" discussion into its own thread as to not detract from the original point. (?)
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2017, 11:08:27 PM »
My bet is no architect other than an employee of the tour or a member of the Dye organization would have taken the job to change the hole.  The fact in this is that it's a Pete Dye course.  The design of the hole is just varying opinions.


Mike:


Well, no one in "the Dye organization" is going to do it when they know it's not his style and Alice objects to the idea.


I think you're wrong though that nobody from the outside would have taken the job.  There are lots of guys who would love to get a hole on TV and would have no qualms about stepping on another architect's toes.  Even Mr. Dye's.

I was assuming they would do it working under PD whether he was involved or not. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alice Dye receives the Donald Ross Award
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2017, 09:43:21 AM »

Sorry I had to miss the meeting, which was basically a way to honor Pete and Alice in their home town to make it easy for them to get to, with his health issues.  My son got married, and some things take precedence over ASGCA, even for me......


I heard it was one of the best attended ASGCA meetings ever, and a good time was had by all.


BTW, agree with TD on the Dinah Shore Ross Award. It (and the governor Rhodes) awards stirred a bit of soul searching as to how to pick recipients. It was a bit lax/sporadic back in those days, and probably diminished the impact of the award, something we have tried to correct with better choices.  But, there was also a bit less press scrutiny back in those days, too.  Maybe Dinah was really all about getting publicity for the award so it could move forward with more importance, even if it was the old "no such thing as bad publicity" mentality.


As to Alice still being sharp, I don't disagree, but was told she informed everyone to introduce themselves by name.  Doesn't mean a thing.  After 35 years of membership, I find myself looking at name tags of new guys more and more.......


BTW, and way OT, but about right this minute as I type, is my 40th anniversary of my first day at Killian and Nugent as a full time, albeit, green as peas, golf course architect.  I drew a grassing plan for Kemper Lakes that day.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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