[jeffwarne]

Wouldn't it be a lot more fun and interesting with about 10 less lakes?
Is that a function of "draining the swamp"?

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:


It is indeed a function of draining the swamp.  IIRC, the water in those ponds is pretty much sea level, and they pump it down to -2 feet if they think storms are coming.


Digging a moat around the golf course property enabled Pete to dry up the fairways and roughs without filling them ... so he could save the trees.

[jeffwarne]

Thought so-Thanks
My few rounds there have been peppered by visits of members of our group (me included) to "out of play" ponds.
The sheer number of them increases the odds of visiting them. (we fight the same thing with beautiful native(real native  low lying berries, laurel, bluestem-not wavy photo op fescuein a can) areas on every hole that can dominate the round of a struggling player, especially in a windy elevated environment.


Unfortunately, on courses like that the cool features are often forgotten and overwhelmed by lingering memories of wet/lost ball search disasters.


Muirfield and it's knee high rough/gunch (when I played it) come to mind-the emphasis becomes avoiding off courses disaster rather than cool on-courses features sooner forgotten than we'd like to admit.

[Peter Pallotta]

I get a notion of Pete Dye as Dorian Gray - but instead of a self-portrait in the attic that keeps aging while Dorian himself doesn't, we have Pete's mind remaining always calm, simple and serene while all the clutter and confusion and nerve-wracking drama exists and keeps happening out there, on his golf courses!

Pretty wise of old Pete, I'd say: the ultimate in chuckling all the way to the bank!

[Kalen Braley]

Wouldn't TPC Saw be "out of scale" if you got rid of all the water?

[Tim Gavrich]

TPC Sawgrass' Stadium Course's entire raison d'être is to test the best golfers in the world for one week every year. All other play is incidental to that mission. If any golf course in the world is going to give not a single whit for the high-handicapper, wouldn't it be this course?

[David Davis]

TPC Sawgrass' Stadium Course's entire raison d'être is to test the best golfers in the world for one week every year. All other play is incidental to that mission. If any golf course in the world is going to give not a single whit for the high-handicapper, wouldn't it be this course?

I'll never forget playing the course with a brash New Yorker, maybe he claimed he was an 18 hcp. However, I promise he couldn't of been a 30 hcp and he ended up picking up and dropping and hitting shots over a lot during the round, lost a ton of balls. In all honestly he might not of broke 100 on the front 9. Then his wife joined us, lovely lady, I'd say they were in their mid to late 50's. On the back 9 the presence of his wife and her video camera inspired some kind of super human effort the likes of which I have never again witnessed.


He starts the back; Par, birdie, par, birdie (we are playing the blue tees, not the pro tees (I talked him out of it on the 1st tee), bogie, bogie, bogie, birdie, bogie. For those counting, that's 1 over on 9 holes of one of the hardest courses you ever want to play. On 17, the pin was back up top like 2 meters from the water. He's a lefty and swings with the wrist movement of a squash player but from way inside a bit like Earl Anthony bowling strikes. He snap hooks this 8 iron into the wind that one bounces, hits the pin and drops dead 1 inch from history. It's all on film, every last second of it, even the gloating to all his friends and his tap in. The pros are nothing, he's thinking about playing in the qualifying for the main event. His name gets to go on the board for birdying the hole from the back tees. Caddy and film were witnesses.


I guess I'm just jealous. Jealous that I've yet to meet a lady that could inspire super human performance in me through the flick of a switch for all to enjoy throughout annals of history.


As for the course, I don't think there is an easy hole out there, not even an easy shot. It was really windy and Dye seemed to do a good job of always taking one complete side out of play and then penalizing you heavily for missing on the other side. The approaches to the greens were demanding. Felt like standing in the fairway trying to throw dart to bouncy boards where only the bullseye resulted in a GIR. Some of the recovery shots around the greens allowed you to understand the importance of not short siding yourself. The only problem was that every miss felt like a short side in 6 inch deep bermuda.


I'd go back if I really started playing excellent golf just for the challenge, but it truly would be the masochist in me just to see how up to the test I was. Otherwise I think it's a one off experience kind of thing but not for everyone. Definitely some cool features many of which lie in visual deception and intimidation. On every tee they just thought to themselves think of a really scary horror flick, ok, how would that look as a golf hole...

[George Pazin]

TPC Sawgrass' Stadium Course's entire raison d'être is to test the best golfers in the world for one week every year. All other play is incidental to that mission. If any golf course in the world is going to give not a single whit for the high-handicapper, wouldn't it be this course?

I guess it depends on how you define the word "test". I'd rather test the pros recovery skills than their ability to judge the proper drop area, but I guess I'm weird that way. Having their misses magnified by adding a stroke to some seemingly random selection of misses is beyond silly to me, but again, I guess I'm weird that way.


The Players does annually produce one of the few events I bother to watch anymore, but it's mostly because of the field, not the architecture. Does it select a worthy champion each year? A perusal of the winners over the last 30 years would imply it does, far more often than not. So that's a huge plus, one that suggests I am indeed weird, not that the architecture is lacking in any way. Others may wax philosophic about Pete Dye, I don't. I respect him tremendously, but I don't really care if I ever play another course of his, save possibly The Golf Club.


As an aside, I still preferred the placement earlier in the schedule, as a prelude/build up to The Masters, versus now, when it's just the biggest tourney between The Masters and the US Open. But again, maybe I'm weird that way.

[jeffwarne]

TPC Sawgrass' Stadium Course's entire raison d'être is to test the best golfers in the world for one week every year. All other play is incidental to that mission. If any golf course in the world is going to give not a single whit for the high-handicapper, wouldn't it be this course?

I'll never forget playing the course with a brash New Yorker, maybe he claimed he was an 18 hcp. However, I promise he couldn't of been a 30 hcp and he ended up picking up and dropping and hitting shots over a lot during the round, lost a ton of balls. In all honestly he might not of broke 100 on the front 9. Then his wife joined us, lovely lady, I'd say they were in their mid to late 50's. On the back 9 the presence of his wife and her video camera inspired some kind of super human effort the likes of which I have never again witnessed.


He starts the back; Par, birdie, par, birdie (we are playing the blue tees, not the pro tees (I talked him out of it on the 1st tee), bogie, bogie, bogie, birdie, bogie. For those counting, that's 1 over on 9 holes of one of the hardest courses you ever want to play.

so you say he claimed to be an 18 but was actually a 30?
after what you witnessed you still think he was a 30?

[David Davis]

TPC Sawgrass' Stadium Course's entire raison d'être is to test the best golfers in the world for one week every year. All other play is incidental to that mission. If any golf course in the world is going to give not a single whit for the high-handicapper, wouldn't it be this course?

I'll never forget playing the course with a brash New Yorker, maybe he claimed he was an 18 hcp. However, I promise he couldn't of been a 30 hcp and he ended up picking up and dropping and hitting shots over a lot during the round, lost a ton of balls. In all honestly he might not of broke 100 on the front 9. Then his wife joined us, lovely lady, I'd say they were in their mid to late 50's. On the back 9 the presence of his wife and her video camera inspired some kind of super human effort the likes of which I have never again witnessed.


He starts the back; Par, birdie, par, birdie (we are playing the blue tees, not the pro tees (I talked him out of it on the 1st tee), bogie, bogie, bogie, birdie, bogie. For those counting, that's 1 over on 9 holes of one of the hardest courses you ever want to play.

so you say he claimed to be an 18 but was actually a 30?
after what you witnessed you still think he was a 30?

Jeff, simple answer, yes for sure. He didn't play his hcp of 30 on the day. Golf is played over 18 holes and I doubt his wife is often there with the video to inspire his rise to the occasion. No honestly there is no way he could of been better than that. I'd have to go through the things that happened during this 9 holes for you to even believe it. It's so far fetched I'm not even going to try.


But multiple ricochets off trees, skipping over the water, bouncing off 1 rake, skulls hitting the pin and dropping in. It was 9 holes that lead me to believe in miracles. I'll leave it at that.

[jeffwarne]

Imagine a 30 shooting 37 in a 9 MG match....
The Head Pro would be running for cover.
Net 22

[Carl Rogers]

I am asking my self this question:  Is TPC more Strategic or is it more Penal?  Or is it the other way around?  It seems very very hard for the best in the world to hit recovery shots if that is necessary to deem a course Strategic.

[Tim Gavrich]

TPC Sawgrass' Stadium Course's entire raison d'être is to test the best golfers in the world for one week every year. All other play is incidental to that mission. If any golf course in the world is going to give not a single whit for the high-handicapper, wouldn't it be this course?

I guess it depends on how you define the word "test". I'd rather test the pros recovery skills than their ability to judge the proper drop area, but I guess I'm weird that way. Having their misses magnified by adding a stroke to some seemingly random selection of misses is beyond silly to me, but again, I guess I'm weird that way.


The Players does annually produce one of the few events I bother to watch anymore, but it's mostly because of the field, not the architecture. Does it select a worthy champion each year? A perusal of the winners over the last 30 years would imply it does, far more often than not. So that's a huge plus, one that suggests I am indeed weird, not that the architecture is lacking in any way. Others may wax philosophic about Pete Dye, I don't. I respect him tremendously, but I don't really care if I ever play another course of his, save possibly The Golf Club.


As an aside, I still preferred the placement earlier in the schedule, as a prelude/build up to The Masters, versus now, when it's just the biggest tourney between The Masters and the US Open. But again, maybe I'm weird that way.

George--


Maybe we were watching different feeds, but I saw a ton of compelling recovery shots throughout the tournament, punctuated by Poulter's amazing recovery shot from absolute jail on 18 to make bogey. On Saturday, J.B. Holmes shot a ridiculous 70 despite hitting, what, five fairways? Did you miss his shot on 14 after blowing his tee shot 40 yards right of the fairway and into the pond by 12 green? Did you miss Si Woo Kim's amazing driver off the deck on the same hole after his tee shot bounded 40 yards back down the cart path? Did you miss Kim's up-and-down clinic on Sunday?


The only hole where pros need to "judge the proper drop area" is 17, which is the only hole without the many recovery possibilities that make the rest of the course so compelling. The small size of the greens and the demands Dye places on players off the tee make TPC Sawgrass a place where more exciting recovery shots need to be hit than at most golf courses the Tour visits. There were consequential recovery shots a-plenty this past weekend, so your suggestion that recovery shots weren't a factor when they very plainly were is, indeed, extremely weird.

[George Pazin]

Didn't see Saturday at all. Saw Day, Holmes, many others, dunking balls on Sunday.


The biggest difference between Louie, one of my favorites, and Kim, heretofore not on my radar, was indeed recovery shots that led to shorter putts, which Kim holed and Louie missed. So you have that going for you.


Other than that, my main impression from Sunday was "how many penalty strokes were added on that hole?"


Helluva recovery by Poulter on 18 as well.


I guess that shows how one's impressions are colored by one's preconceptions.

[Josh Tarble]

I think TPC is very strategic and not the hardest course in Florida I've played.  I truly believe if you're playing the proper tees there is room to negotiate your way around.

[George Pazin]

I think TPC is very strategic and not the hardest course in Florida I've played.  I truly believe if you're playing the proper tees there is room to negotiate your way around.

Do you like that? Negotiating your way around?


Not being mean, just curious.

[Josh Tarble]

I think TPC is very strategic and not the hardest course in Florida I've played.  I truly believe if you're playing the proper tees there is room to negotiate your way around.

Do you like that? Negotiating your way around?


Not being mean, just curious.

Not necessarily, but isn't that what strategy is?


I believe that TPC forces players to be strategic.  No one actually fears bunkers or rough, it's just another place their ball ends up.  However, everyone does fear water.  It forces people to change how they play, whether through fear and intimidation or meekness and second-guessing. 


While a bunker isn't going to persuade 99% of golfers to play away from a certain spot, a sleeper-bordered pond definitely will.

[George Pazin]

I believe that TPC forces players to be strategic.  No one actually fears bunkers or rough, it's just another place their ball ends up.  However, everyone does fear water.  It forces people to change how they play, whether through fear and intimidation or meekness and second-guessing. 


While a bunker isn't going to persuade 99% of golfers to play away from a certain spot, a sleeper-bordered pond definitely will.

In theory, I agree with you.


Yet, I'd also be remiss if I didn't note that there are courses out there that manage to force decisions without water.


I'd hate the notion that water is necessary to test the best.

[jeffwarne]

TPC Sawgrass' Stadium Course's entire raison d'être is to test the best golfers in the world for one week every year. All other play is incidental to that mission. If any golf course in the world is going to give not a single whit for the high-handicapper, wouldn't it be this course?

I guess it depends on how you define the word "test". I'd rather test the pros recovery skills than their ability to judge the proper drop area, but I guess I'm weird that way. Having their misses magnified by adding a stroke to some seemingly random selection of misses is beyond silly to me, but again, I guess I'm weird that way.


The Players does annually produce one of the few events I bother to watch anymore, but it's mostly because of the field, not the architecture. Does it select a worthy champion each year? A perusal of the winners over the last 30 years would imply it does, far more often than not. So that's a huge plus, one that suggests I am indeed weird, not that the architecture is lacking in any way. Others may wax philosophic about Pete Dye, I don't. I respect him tremendously, but I don't really care if I ever play another course of his, save possibly The Golf Club.


As an aside, I still preferred the placement earlier in the schedule, as a prelude/build up to The Masters, versus now, when it's just the biggest tourney between The Masters and the US Open. But again, maybe I'm weird that way.

George--


Maybe we were watching different feeds, but I saw a ton of compelling recovery shots throughout the tournament, punctuated by Poulter's amazing recovery shot from absolute jail on 18 to make bogey. On Saturday, J.B. Holmes shot a ridiculous 70 despite hitting, what, five fairways? Did you miss his shot on 14 after blowing his tee shot 40 yards right of the fairway and into the pond by 12 green? Did you miss Si Woo Kim's amazing driver off the deck on the same hole after his tee shot bounded 40 yards back down the cart path? Did you miss Kim's up-and-down clinic on Sunday?


The only hole where pros need to "judge the proper drop area" is 17, which is the only hole without the many recovery possibilities that make the rest of the course so compelling. The small size of the greens and the demands Dye places on players off the tee make TPC Sawgrass a place where more exciting recovery shots need to be hit than at most golf courses the Tour visits. There were consequential recovery shots a-plenty this past weekend, so your suggestion that recovery shots weren't a factor when they very plainly were is, indeed, extremely weird.

Good post Tim.
Rethinking my position.
I see George's point as well.
Big world theory I guess

[noonan]

I thought Sawgrass was penal

[Jason Topp]

On my visit, I was surprised at how little of a factor water was on the course - particularly when compared to other Florida courses. 

Before the recent changes to 12, I think 18 and 4 were the only par 4's with water really closely in play.  The par 5's have water but each one provides a safe option of an iron layup and a wedge approach.  Neither of the front nine par 3's have water in play.  13 offers plenty of bailout room and 17 is a 131 yard hole that provides a thrill. 

I think watching the tournament on television gives a false impression because of the focus on 17 and 18.  Anyone who can carry a ball 120 yards can get around TPC Sawgrass and enjoy the experience. 

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