[Matt Kardash]

Based on this week's coverage (or perhaps some here have played the new hole) which version of the 12th hole at TPS Sawgrass do you guys prefer?
As a side topic, how do you feel about the new look Sawgrass? A lot more short grass, less green contour, some bunker changes, a new lake.

[jeffwarne]

Based on this week's coverage (or perhaps some here have played the new hole) which version of the 12th hole at TPS Sawgrass do you guys prefer?
As a side topic, how do you feel about the new look Sawgrass? A lot more short grass, less green contour, some bunker changes, a new lake.

One thing's for sure.
In 100 years it won't be a classic course because by then they'll be on their 25th differnt iteration of the course.
Never was much of a fan other than as a curiousity-and it hasn't really improved.
Kind've like AGNC-always folowing trends towards homogonization-which is interesting given both WERE somethig different when they opened.

[Josh Stevens]

I don't get the applause for the 12th . Yes its driveable, buy why on earth would you try?  It seems to be based on the flawed premise that driveable is good, without considering that there needs to be a bit more to it, like angles, shades of grey and half shot penalties.

seems a bit black and white to me

[Thomas Dai]

Nice use of the word curiousity Jeff.
Atb

[BHoover]

I like the new 12th hole for the tournament. I also like the course overall.

[Tim Gavrich]

80/20 layup/go percentage is not necessarily bad, is it? If the Tour would prefer 50/50, I'd just recommend they either incrementally reduce the banking on the left edge of the green or widen the green (and move the pot bunker) a tiny bit on the right, until they get the results they want.


In any case, my impression was that the hole location put off most players from going for the green, since the prospects of getting up and down after bailing out right were not good. A hole closer to the left edge and/or front edge will probably be more enticing, no?


It is a bit of a bummer that the Tour has reduced the slopes on the greens, but that's more because pros tend to be coddled babies than anything else.

[Steve_Lovett]

80/20 layup/go percentage is not necessarily bad, is it? If the Tour would prefer 50/50, I'd just recommend they either incrementally reduce the banking on the left edge of the green or widen the green (and move the pot bunker) a tiny bit on the right, until they get the results they want.


In any case, my impression was that the hole location put off most players from going for the green, since the prospects of getting up and down after bailing out right were not good. A hole closer to the left edge and/or front edge will probably be more enticing, no?


It is a bit of a bummer that the Tour has reduced the slopes on the greens, but that's more because pros tend to be coddled babies than anything else.

Yesterday the tees were up and the hole was back right. I attended the tournament and very few attacked the hole. Lots of 4-irons off the tee. Not a ton of birdies either. If the hole location is more accessible for a recovery shot I suspect we'll see more players taking a run at the green from the tee.


They weren't in use, but there are a few additional tees back and left of the tournament tee marked at 302 yards. If they want to, it looks like the hole could be stretched close to 340-350. I wonder if it will.

[Evan_Green]

Faldo made an interesting comment on the broadcast yesterday that he felt the layup was too easy and driving the green too hard (too much danger to justify the risk) - the other way around might have enticed more to go for the green.

[Josh Tarble]

An interesting point was also made that players going for it made birdie a significant amount more than laying up.  almost 2 to 1 advantage I believe.  I think the hole fits the course perfectly.  I also think the course doesn't get nearly the credit it deserves. It's fantastic and far more playable than most would have you believe.

[Tom_Doak]

An interesting point was also made that players going for it made birdie a significant amount more than laying up.  almost 2 to 1 advantage I believe.  I think the hole fits the course perfectly.  I also think the course doesn't get nearly the credit it deserves. It's fantastic and far more playable than most would have you believe.

If the hole fit the course perfectly, Pete Dye would have built it in the first place.

[Rees Milikin]

An interesting point was also made that players going for it made birdie a significant amount more than laying up.  almost 2 to 1 advantage I believe.  I think the hole fits the course perfectly.  I also think the course doesn't get nearly the credit it deserves. It's fantastic and far more playable than most would have you believe.

If the hole fit the course perfectly, Pete Dye would have built it in the first place.

Nobody bats 1000%

[Josh Tarble]

An interesting point was also made that players going for it made birdie a significant amount more than laying up.  almost 2 to 1 advantage I believe.  I think the hole fits the course perfectly.  I also think the course doesn't get nearly the credit it deserves. It's fantastic and far more playable than most would have you believe.

If the hole fit the course perfectly, Pete Dye would have built it in the first place.

Honest question, are there many actual Dye course with a true driveable par 4?  The only one I can think of is Brickyard Crossing.  Every single other one I've played, his short 4 is in the drive-and-pitch yardage. A la the original 12th.

[Tom_Doak]

Honest question, are there many actual Dye course with a true driveable par 4?  The only one I can think of is Brickyard Crossing.  Every single other one I've played, his short 4 is in the drive-and-pitch yardage. A la the original 12th.

Yes, that's the main reason I don't like the change.  [I haven't been watching how it plays this week.]  It just doesn't seem in keeping with Pete's work and style.


I was not on site when the original hole was built - I started working for Mr. Dye a year or two after that - but I believe his original idea was to build a short 4 with a blind second shot, and Commissioner Beman nixed the idea.  Which is how Long Cove [Pete's next course, which I did work on] came to have its 5th hole.

[Josh Tarble]

That's a fair critique, I've got no rebuttal other than the 12th was a bad hole and I don't think it fit in any better than the new 12th.  There was no "edge" to the hole, nothing to make you consider any option other than bash it down and flip a short wedge in.

[Eric LeFante]

I think with pin on the right yesterday it was smart to lay-up since bailing right off the tee if you went for it left a difficult second shot. It will be interesting to see how the hole plays for the week with 4 different pins. I would say if they don't get 40% or so of players to go for the green I would try not shaving the bank to the left of the green so low and let it grow to a first cut of rough. That is a much cheaper option than leveling the green on the left side. By letting the grass grow to first cut height, a well played shot that hits the green but rolls off to the left will stay up, which I think is fair.


I think sometimes shaved banks that lead to a hazard can be a bit unfair. I would not mind seeing 10 at Riviera with the grass grown a little higher around the green so well executed bunker shots don't roll through the green into the opposite bunker.

[Bill Crane]

In the "Confidential Guide" (s) Tom Doak points out many great courses that evolved over time, such as Merion where Flynn and Wilson really added most of bunkers several years later after seeing the course being played, or Woking that was worked on progressively. 


However, it seems to me the changes at TPC now are just watering down (dumming down?) the features to make scoring easier.  This benefits the owners (the Tour)  since the course is less likely to make the pros look foolish - a process that started when the course was built.


Having only played it once, I remember thinking the 12th was an interesting hole with unusual angles, and one of the more unique greens.  Wish they could have kept the green.


Several of the most interesting greens were softened, and just from watching about 45 minutes these included #8, #9, #12 and probably others that I haven't focused on.  #8 and #9 were really interesting greens. 

[Matthew Essig]

Keegan Bradley just hit the green with an iron. I think it should be a 50/50 go for it - lay-up ratio, but some of these players are too chicken.

[Tom_Doak]

In the "Confidential Guide" (s) Tom Doak points out many great courses that evolved over time, such as Merion where Flynn and Wilson really added most of bunkers several years later after seeing the course being played, or Woking that was worked on progressively. 


However, it seems to me the changes at TPC now are just watering down (dumming down?) the features to make scoring easier.  This benefits the owners (the Tour)  since the course is less likely to make the pros look foolish - a process that started when the course was built.


Having only played it once, I remember thinking the 12th was an interesting hole with unusual angles, and one of the more unique greens.  Wish they could have kept the green.


Several of the most interesting greens were softened, and just from watching about 45 minutes these included #8, #9, #12 and probably others that I haven't focused on.  #8 and #9 were really interesting greens.

Nearly ALL of the greens have been softened / watered down from the original course that opened in 1981.


The difference between the TPC and Merion or Woking is that the changes over the years have been made based on political consensus, instead of by the designer due to outside influences [traffic on Ardmore Ave.], or a couple of interested hobbyists making a boring course better [Woking].  Refinements can be for the better, but the better the course you start with, the less likely that's going to happen.

[Tim Gavrich]

Wasn't Pete Dye (along with Bobby Weed) involved in the creation of the 15th at TPC River Highlands, which is the new Sawgrass 12th's clear forebear?

[Derek_Duncan]

That's a fair critique, I've got no rebuttal other than the 12th was a bad hole and I don't think it fit in any better than the new 12th.  There was no "edge" to the hole, nothing to make you consider any option other than bash it down and flip a short wedge in.

I thought the old 12th was a fine hole. For the handicap player, by the time you got to it you'd typically been stung a few times and hitting driver there was far from a given. And if you didn't get your iron or metal wood far enough down the fairway you'd have an obscured 2nd over the hill.


Like Augusta National, most if not all the changes at Sawgrass are made with tournament golf in mind. In that light the old 12th had become dull like you said, and the new hole is better for that reason. But in a bubble I doubt it helps enhances course.


Losing green contour as has been reported is a damn shame.

[Tom_Doak]

Wasn't Pete Dye (along with Bobby Weed) involved in the creation of the 15th at TPC River Highlands, which is the new Sawgrass 12th's clear forebear?

I don't know how involved Mr. Dye was with Bobby's revamp of the old TPC of Connecticut.  On Pete's first version of the course, that hole was not a drivable par-4.

[Matthew Rose]

Seems too short to me. I don't hate the concept, but it bothers me if somebody can reach with an iron. You might as well build a par three.

[Matt Kardash]

On the Golf channel they claimed that Dye was asked what he thought of the hole and he said he isn't a fan of driveable par 3s. Alice Dye said the new hole is basically a hole for television.

[Ben Malach]

I mean I get why they wanted a driveable 4 par on the TPC course. It can provide some excitement into a round of golf and force an obvious decision that can be talked about and then quantified in stats. Making it one of the better holes to talk about planning decision making and how architecture influence a round of golf. But what the 12th hole is currently judging from watching play over the past couple days is a meaty par 3 with a boring lay up to a wedge. This is a shame because of the nature of the site, the tour and the consulting architect could have come up with something super cool. But I feel the major issue with this type of project is that the hole would have to pass through so many people by the time it reaches the ground it will lack and flavor or quirk that make the great short par 4's work.   

[Rich Goodale]

Nobody bats 1000%



Obviously you have not read one of my favorite books when I was 7 years olfd....


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kid_Who_Batted_1.000

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