[Bob Montle]

My club’s pro claims that it is easier to hole shots (over 100 yards) from the fairway than from the tee at par threes.
He says that the fairway on many par 4s or par 5s have “sweet spots” where it is easier to funnel balls to certain pin locations.  But architects design their par 3s to make hole in ones more difficult.

I had never heard of this.  The conversation came up after I holed a 9 iron from 120 yards.  This is my 4th fairway hole-out in the past four years, but I am zero for 60 years at getting a hole-in-one.

Shouldn’t it be easier to hole your shot from a teed up ball on level ground than from a sloping fairway?

And, is it possible to design the par 3's to make it harder to hole shots (from over 100 yards?)

[MClutterbuck]

You play up to 14 shots to par 4s and 5s per round and only 4 to par 3s...


I have never heard this claim before, plus it is all about pin placement at the end of the day, is it not?


For example, the par 3 contest at the Masters. There was a huge amount of hole in 1s last year. My recollection is that it is not necessarily an easy par 3 course. But pins appear to be placed where balls tend to funnel to.

[Thomas Dai]

I've long thought that greens on most par-3's are better defended than those on most par-4's and par-5's generally are.
Imagine sticking a Harry Colt knob-to-knob type par-3 green on the end of a relatively standard medium/long par-4/5. I reckon there'd be a whole bunch of bogies/doubles made and few up-n-downs achieved.
I could be wrong though.
Atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

Bob,


It sounds as if your club pro has never had a hole in one, either!   

[Kris Spence]

Never crossed my mind either way on any project.  Just not a criteria I consider.  The 16th at Sedgefield has a horseshoe green that provides the best collection area for an ace I have ever seen.  I never felt it should be used for a hole location and was more of an internal swale hazard on the green.  Any ball entering the bowl will skirt the one small placement area. 


 I need to play there more often when they stick the hole there having never scored an ace!!!

[A.G._Crockett]

Never crossed my mind either way on any project.  Just not a criteria I consider.  The 16th at Sedgefield has a horseshoe green that provides the best collection area for an ace I have ever seen.  I never felt it should be used for a hole location and was more of an internal swale hazard on the green.  Any ball entering the bowl will skirt the one small placement area. 


 I need to play there more often when they stick the hole there having never scored an ace!!!

Kris Spence,
Thanks for this reply, which is what I would have suspected.  An ace is such a serendipitous thing that I don't know how you'd do it anyway.

I was a member of a club for 15 years that had five par threes, none longer than 160 from the back tees; probably played close to 2000 rounds there, and never had an ace.  Then I was a member of a club for another 7 years that also had very short par 3's, and probably played 1000 rounds there; one hole-in-one there, with a pitching wedge.  The greens at both clubs were relatively flat and relatively straightforward.

Here's the catch:  I have five aces in my lifetime, so four of them have been away from the courses I know best and play the most.  Not only that, but the other four have been with a four iron, a five iron, and (years later) with four and five hybrids.  In other words, happy accidents from far, far away in which the hole got in the way of my ball.  Literally... 

So I don't think there would be much need to figure out ways to defend against an ace by the likes of me, since there's no rhyme or reason to it anyway.  I know terrific golfers who are MUCH better than I who have zero aces in their lifetime.  The whole thing is sort of an accident of time and space anyway.

[Steve Lang]

So I don't think there would be much need to figure out ways to defend against an ace by the likes of me, since there's no rhyme or reason to it anyway.  I know terrific golfers who are MUCH better than I who have zero aces in their lifetime.  The whole thing is sort of an accident of time and space anyway.

I like that "..accident of time and space anyway."   Made me think of Leon Russel, "Master of Space & Time", and pretty sure he never had a hole-in-one either


Since one-shotters are supposed to all be about accuracy, I trust that all that have ever gotten a birdie are still trying to get a hole-in one!  It's such a great moment in golf.  I'm still trying for my second, Ms Sheila going for her 8th...

[Jason Thurman]

Regardless of whether they do or not, it would be an interesting question to solve...


The average golfer plays roughly 3-3.5x as many non-par 3s as they do par 3s. To simplify, let's say 3x as many since not every par 4 or par 5 is approached with a full swing.


Let's do a quick straw poll in this thread:


1. How many times have you holed out a shot from over 100 yards on a par 3? (for purposes of this exercise, let's not count aces on holes of less than 100 yards. My tune would be different if my ball hadn't stopped an inch short on the 2nd at Colorado Golf Club's short course last summer...)


2. How many times have you holed out a shot from over 100 yards on a par 4 or 5?


My answers:


1. 0
2. 1


If the ratio of responses to question 1 vs question 2 comes out to about 1:3 or higher, we can probably say that there's nothing specifically more difficult about acing a par 3 than holing out on a par 4 or 5, on balance. If it's lower, then maybe the pro in the original post has a point.

[A.G._Crockett]

Regardless of whether they do or not, it would be an interesting question to solve...


The average golfer plays roughly 3-3.5x as many non-par 3s as they do par 3s. To simplify, let's say 3x as many since not every par 4 or par 5 is approached with a full swing.


Let's do a quick straw poll in this thread:


1. How many times have you holed out a shot from over 100 yards on a par 3? (for purposes of this exercise, let's not count aces on holes of less than 100 yards. My tune would be different if my ball hadn't stopped an inch short on the 2nd at Colorado Golf Club's short course last summer...)


2. How many times have you holed out a shot from over 100 yards on a par 4 or 5?


My answers:


1. 0
2. 1


If the ratio of responses to question 1 vs question 2 comes out to about 1:3 or higher, we can probably say that there's nothing specifically more difficult about acing a par 3 than holing out on a par 4 or 5, on balance. If it's lower, then maybe the pro in the original post has a point.

I think holing out on a 4 or 5 from similar distance to a par three is MUCH more difficult, if only because of being able to tee the ball up.  It is a lot easier to be accurate when you give yourself a "preferred lie" by rolling the ball in your fairway, right?  To say nothing of putting the ball on a tee...

Think of it this way:  If you could tee up EVERY shot thru the green, how many strokes would it deduct from your scores over a period of years?  I suspect the answer is a pretty high number.

[Bob Montle]

Bob,


It sounds as if your club pro has never had a hole in one, either!   

His "score" is 2 hole-in-ones
            vs        17 hole-outs for eagles or double eagles.

[MClutterbuck]

Bob,


It sounds as if your club pro has never had a hole in one, either!   

His "score" is 2 hole-in-ones
            vs        17 hole-outs for eagles or double eagles.

1. 0
2. circa 20

[Adrian_Stiff]

In design, sometimes I think about creating a hole in one position. Have never had the thought about trying making an ace impossible.

1. 4 proper ones (14 more on the par 3 course, most under 100 yards)
2. 18 other holed shots from the fairway but never a double eagle , 4 iron, 7 iron, 8 iron couple of 9 irons but mainly nearly all are just holed wedges.

[Lyndell Young]

I think pin placement plays more of a role in hole outs either for a ace or eagle or albatross. One other factor for par 4s and 5s you can position your upcoming approach angle to have a more favorable shot. Or you can just hit a perfect shot as I did on the Eden hole at Old Mac this past week at the Kings Putter! What a blast!

[Duncan Cheslett]

1.  2 holes in one


2.  0 hole-outs from over 150 yards.  A couple from around 100 yards.

[Thomas Dai]

It probably helps if you are a longer hitter........you ain't gonna have an eagle on a par-4 unless you can reach the green in two!


By the way, isn't Ben Hogan supposed not to have had a hole-in-one. Maybe even Seve as well?
I wonder how many full-shot hole-outs from the fairway each had?


atb

[archie_struthers]

 




In a word , no! 


I don't think any architect sets out to build greens differently on par three holes , not if he or she is any good. What architects do think  of  is the type of shot most likely to be played to a hole , and the distance for all their customers.


As to making shot from the fairway its a math exercise , as stated earlier.

[Jeff_Brauer]

40th year as a golf architect and can attest that thought never once crossed my mind.


And, I even designed a miniature golf course once!

[Rich Goodale]

My history:


1.  7 (all 150-170, three on the same hole of which one "normal", one banked off a right slope, one banked off a back slope).  One NLE (old 8th Dornoch Struie).


2.  4 that I can remember (two 200+ one 1985 (Half Moon Bay), one 2015 (Longniddry)), two 100+ (Half Moon Bay 1986, Portsalon 2005)


Getting back on topic, sort of....


.....Any confirmation of the meme that the most "aced" golf hole is the blind Dell at Lahinch in that the many caddies move good shots into the hole in order to increase tips?

[Rich Goodale]

To add...


My elder sister (age 70+ and 4' 11") made her first ever hole in one in February.  She made her second hole in one in March, with a front/front tee of 70 yards.  The 70 yard shot was uphill over a deep bunker to a strong right to left green.  I was there.  You could put the entire field at Augusta on that tee with 100 balls each and none of them would get a hole in one.  IMHO.

[Tony Ristola]

Just the opposite... I've created a hole with a specific ace possibility, and funny enough was the first to ace the hole. I don't think a lot of aces have been made there, probably. It's a ying/yang thing, as to make it ace friendly you need contours to feed the ball to the hole, like 16 at Augusta on Sunday. You don't hit it in the right spot and you could be facing a tough up'n in.

[Thomas Dai]

Robert Trent Jones, 4th hole Baltusroll
Atb

[Matthew Petersen]

Nearly 30 years of playing golf

1. Never had an ace
2. Holed out from fairway 3 times

[Terry Lavin]

Regardless of whether they do or not, it would be an interesting question to solve...


The average golfer plays roughly 3-3.5x as many non-par 3s as they do par 3s. To simplify, let's say 3x as many since not every par 4 or par 5 is approached with a full swing.


Let's do a quick straw poll in this thread:


1. How many times have you holed out a shot from over 100 yards on a par 3? (for purposes of this exercise, let's not count aces on holes of less than 100 yards. My tune would be different if my ball hadn't stopped an inch short on the 2nd at Colorado Golf Club's short course last summer...)


2. How many times have you holed out a shot from over 100 yards on a par 4 or 5?


My answers:


1. 0
2. 1

1.  4.5 I've had four aces.  (And a hole in three at Dunes Club for the .5). 
2.  3 (3-wood from 222 at Beverly, 5-wood from 200 at Friar's Head, 9-iron from 125 at Champion's Gate).

As for the underlying question, I had an interesting experience while doing hole locations on hole 13 (#4 in Open rotation) on day 3 of the 2003 US Open at Olympia.  They settled on a middle right hole location that offered a couple different meandering methods for a ball to go in the hole.  Tom Meeks declared, "might see a couple aces here today."  He uttered this purposefully and matter-of-factly.  I shut my mouth, but it irritated the shit out of me.  As a member, I wanted these guys to have difficulty, even on one of our easier holes.  I sure as shit didn't want them to select a hole location that was conducive to holes-in-one.  But that is what they do every year at the Masters.  That's why they have so many aces there on the final round.  I think it's contrary to a major setup, but I'm no genius on setup, that's for sure.  The USGA guys found spots on many greens that I had never putted to and couldn't really read the putt after it was selected.  Maybe they get tired of screwing with the pros and threw that one cookie at 'em.

[Tom_Doak]

I was once told that Augusta has maps of the greens down to each square foot, and scoring records for every precise hole location, so they know that a foot to the left makes the hole a bit harder than right here.  And that they use their info to help dial in a winning score ... if the 36-hole scoring is low, you can expect to see them move the pins the extra foot, or vice versa.  That would certainly affect the odds of holes in one at Augusta, too.


I don't know of any other course with that kind of data, although presumably any regular Tour stop could do it if they wanted.


I have never thought of trying to minimize holes in one ... I have thought on occasion that a particular green will create more opportunities with shots off a backstop.


As soon as Marcos Clutterbuck posted his response, I smiled, because I realized I've been silly to pride myself on my four hole-outs for eagle as being rare for someone who's never had a hole in one.  I'm certain he is right that it's all about the number of opportunities you have for each.

[Thomas Dai]

As soon as Marcos Clutterbuck posted his response, I smiled, because I realized I've been silly to pride myself on my four hole-outs for eagle as being rare for someone who's never had a hole in one.  I'm certain he is right that it's all about the number of opportunities you have for each.

Go along with opportunities.
I'm on 4 x hole-in-ones but have only ever holed 1 full shot from the fairway for an eagle.....less opportunities for shorter hitters who can't reach some par-4's in regulation (and have no way of reaching a par-5 in only two shots for a 1 putt eagle).
Atb

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