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Mike Schott

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #350 on: April 30, 2017, 10:03:04 AM »
But I have two questions. Erik, are you as sure of your stand on things when you're standing in front of people? If so, how often do you get punched in the nose?
Yes, and never.  :)  Writing lacks tone, as you know. I also suspect I'll never really understand how personally offended some people are by a difference of opinion.

I'm surprised it took this long considering Erik's track record on his own website and forum which he moderates (dictates).


In defense of Erik, and I'm a member of his website, you are being unfair. I don't agree with his take here but he's consistent in his thoughts on the rules of golf. As far as how he runs his site, I've not found him to be unfair or overly critical of posters. When he has to moderate, there's good reason.

Craig Sweet

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #351 on: April 30, 2017, 10:24:49 AM »
I think golfers probably break a rule or two every time they play. Yesterday, one of the old guys at my course, who plays with an every Tuesday group of 20 or so oldies, told me they move the ball whenever they want, rough or fairway.  I see many golfers that are as careless as Lexi when marking their ball, simply tossing the marker down, and plenty that never putt out...giving themselves tap ins, 2 footers...etc.


It's fine if someone wants to be a 100% follower of the rules...but I would never play with them...they're to uptight...to anal.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #352 on: April 30, 2017, 10:54:13 AM »
Agree with you, however that doesn't address the problems as I see them.  Rules authorities can't control if a player calls a penalty on the spot or if indeed a rules official with the group calls a penalty on the spot.  Rules authorities can control when and how tv is used to call penalties and they can control what consequences there are for being guilty of an infraction when called after a card is signed.
It's the responsibility of the players to write down the correct score and to play the game under the Rules of Golf. When they fail to do so, the answer is not "oh well, they got away with it" because they signed their card and because the rules committee was alerted to it by someone who saw it on TV.

What I do dislike is tagging an extra 2 shots for signing an incorrect card when in fact, by the rules, that round isn't closed if penalties can be called the next day.
You're using the phrase "by the rules" improperly. There's no rule covering "when a round is closed." There are rules which state when a scorecard is considered to have been turned in, that scorecards must be signed (and by whom), and there are rules covering what you do when there's an incorrect scorecard. There are no rules covering when a scorecard is "closed."

And again, your solution is… what? To let players get away with known, seen rules infractions just because they weren't spotted and brought to the attention of someone before the player signed their card? Lexi's breach was on 17. Even if someone saw it live and in person, but couldn't get to Lexi within 20 minutes it would have been too late.

The over-riding principle in calling infractions should be the ideals of consistency and equality.
How is it consistent to see and know of a rules infraction that you can't penalize?

And no, I disagree that the "over-riding principle" should be "equality" in the way that you mean it: that some players are on TV more and that's just not fair. The over-riding principle IS that like situations are treated alike. Lexi broke the rules. Two of them. So, to be consistent, she's penalized just like everyone else.

I can't understand why the severity of the penalty is different depending on when an infraction was discovered.
Huh?

Justifying the double penalty by claiming two separate infractions were committed is a poor approach to making rules.
I disagree. If you write down a 4 when you got a 5, you incur a penalty. It's an incorrect scorecard. You're DQed, actually, a very stiff penalty. The rule was softened recently BECAUSE of video call-ins and other sorts of things, to where if you fail in your responsibility to write down the proper score that you shot for each hole, but you did so unknowingly, that you simply get a slap on the wrist two-stroke penalty rather than being DQed outright.

This is the worst possible argument because it justifies those in authority doing anything they wish.  It is the very definition of the rules are good because they are the rules.
If you don't breach the rules, you've got nothing to worry about.
No, it isn't.

The "why" and thoughts and logic behind the rules have been covered many times. At no point have I read anyone say "well, the rules are the rules." Asking players to FOLLOW the rules and pointing out that they can't be penalized extra if they do that is not at all the same thing as saying "the rules are good because they are the rules."
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #353 on: April 30, 2017, 10:58:07 AM »
I think golfers probably break a rule or two every time they play. Yesterday, one of the old guys at my course, who plays with an every Tuesday group of 20 or so oldies, told me they move the ball whenever they want, rough or fairway.  I see many golfers that are as careless as Lexi when marking their ball, simply tossing the marker down, and plenty that never putt out...giving themselves tap ins, 2 footers...etc.


It's fine if someone wants to be a 100% follower of the rules...but I would never play with them...they're to uptight...to anal.
Seriously?  You think that it's a sensible contribution to this discussion, 15 pages in, to compare the behaviour of a professional golfer in a professional tournament, with the way you and your mates play on a weekend?  If you're just out for a knock and don't want to obey the rules, I have no problem with that but if you don't abide by the rules of golf then you aren't playing golf.  The very minimum I expect of my fellow competitors in a club competition, let alone top amateurs or professionals,  is that they obey the rules.


Are you seriously suggesting that if Dustin Johnson gets a bad lie in rough in the final round of the US Open and just moves it a few inches to improve his lie you wouldn't have a problem with that?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #354 on: April 30, 2017, 10:59:35 AM »
It's fine if someone wants to be a 100% follower of the rules...but I would never play with them...they're to uptight...to anal.
"Too", by the way, but I expect you'd feel that people that like correct spelling are too anal, too.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #355 on: April 30, 2017, 01:20:15 PM »
Couple of further things:


 - Let's suppose that you're playing in a tournament and it's on TV. You follow all the rules and you make sure to replace your ball where you picked it up from rather than being "careless". You hit your tee shot into some pine straw. You move some of the pine straw behind the ball and as you reach in to move it, the ball moves. You can't be sure if the ball moved before or after you actually touched anything, so you're not sure if you caused it to move. If you did, you have to add a shot and replace it. If you didn't, you play it as it lies. Given that situation, do you think it's an advantage or a disadvantage to be on TV? I personally think it's an advantage. You are much more likely to be judged fairly in a questionable situation than if you are not on TV.


 - If the rules were changed such that once you have signed a card and handed it in, that card is closed and your score stands, what do you do in the situation where a player signs their card with a 3 on the 12th hole, but they actually took 4. As in they hit it 4 times before it went in the hole. Would you DQ them? Would you let the 3 stand? Why should that differ if a player broke a rule, but didn't include the associated penalty? Should a player be absolved of guilt in that situation because they didn't know that they broke the rule? If a player is in doubt about breaking a rule, should they make sure that is cleared up before they sign their card? If ignorance becomes an excuse and a player is penalised differently for a situation where they didn't know the rule versus knew it and broke it, doesn't that reward ignorance? Is that really a good place to be?


If you're playing tournament golf, learn the rules and follow them. It's that simple. If you're playing with your friends on a weekend, rake away two footers if you like. Move your ball out of divots to your heart's content. Just make sure that everyone is playing the same way if you have anything riding on it.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #356 on: April 30, 2017, 01:42:17 PM »
Couple of further things:


 - Let's suppose that you're playing in a tournament and it's on TV. You follow all the rules and you make sure to replace your ball where you picked it up from rather than being "careless". You hit your tee shot into some pine straw. You move some of the pine straw behind the ball and as you reach in to move it, the ball moves. You can't be sure if the ball moved before or after you actually touched anything, so you're not sure if you caused it to move. If you did, you have to add a shot and replace it. If you didn't, you play it as it lies. Given that situation, do you think it's an advantage or a disadvantage to be on TV? I personally think it's an advantage. You are much more likely to be judged fairly in a questionable situation than if you are not on TV.





Let's take that another step.
You're in the pine straw and you think your ball may have moved(as far as you know, no one else saw it). Being an honorable person, you take the higher ground, call the penalty, and put the ball back where you thought it was before the tiny movement.


The next day, TV shows your ball did NOT move, and you've played your ball from the wrong place(2 shots), because you "replaced" it.and you've signed a wrong scorecard (2 more shots)


More Pandora's box, and another reason to not be quite so dogmatic and sure about this.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #357 on: April 30, 2017, 01:47:48 PM »
Couple of further things:


 - Let's suppose that you're playing in a tournament and it's on TV. You follow all the rules and you make sure to replace your ball where you picked it up from rather than being "careless". You hit your tee shot into some pine straw. You move some of the pine straw behind the ball and as you reach in to move it, the ball moves. You can't be sure if the ball moved before or after you actually touched anything, so you're not sure if you caused it to move. If you did, you have to add a shot and replace it. If you didn't, you play it as it lies. Given that situation, do you think it's an advantage or a disadvantage to be on TV? I personally think it's an advantage. You are much more likely to be judged fairly in a questionable situation than if you are not on TV.





Let's take that another step.
You're in the pine straw and you think your ball may have moved(as far as you know, no one else saw it). Being an honorable person, you take the higher ground, call the penalty, and put the ball back where you thought it was before the tiny movement.


The next day, TV shows your ball did NOT move, and you've played your ball from the wrong place(2 shots), because you "replaced" it.and you've signed a wrong scorecard (2 more shots)


More Pandora's box, and another reason to not be quite so dogmatic and sure about this.


But if that was happening to you, you would call over an official and ask them. They tell you what to do based on the available evidence. Then you're in the clear because you went with what the official told you to do at the time. If you were on TV, they would presumably know that and would be able to look at the feed then to determine what you should do. Then you have no fear of repercussion and can sign your card without the risk that it's wrong.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #358 on: April 30, 2017, 02:09:08 PM »
what if you didn't know you were on TV?
or a knucklehead filmed it on his phone....
and revealed it a day later


« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 02:10:55 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #359 on: April 30, 2017, 03:18:49 PM »
what if you didn't know you were on TV?
or a knucklehead filmed it on his phone....
and revealed it a day later
You're still fine. The official blessed it. It would be a rare situation where the committee would later overturn what the official did. Here's such a case:

If you cheat, you can still be penalized, though. Cheating in this scenario would be telling a rules official "Hey, I think my ball moved, but I didn't touch anything - it moved three inches when I was ten feet away" and then the next day video shows that you walk up, make a face at the ball buried in the pine straw, the ball doesn't move at all, and you call the official over and then replace it so rather than sitting way down in the pine straw, it's sitting right up on top.

That'd earn you a DQ. Rightfully.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #360 on: April 30, 2017, 05:42:23 PM »
Then there's this... from earlier this year.''


Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #361 on: May 01, 2017, 03:36:40 AM »
Pat

I guess we either look at the rules in a manner which gives the player the benefit of the doubt or not.  To me, the rule infraction is clear. What is unclear is why the penalty for breaking that rule is doubled or not depending on when it was discovered/reported/ruled upon (and despite what strict rules disciples say...this is what happens)...especially as the player is forced to sign a card after a round. Some people seem to think the 2 shot penalty is not enough to ensure players remain honest....that to me is a very odd opinion.  TV is playing a major role in outing the flawed rule, but it could also be a vindictive player that would like nothing more than to see 2 shots tacked on to the penalty. IMO, the possibility of this happening or by using random tv interference, leaves the game open to disrepute and fails to protect the field. 

I would have no problem with late calls causing a 2 shot penalty should tv be used consistently and equally to make rulings, though if a system like were in place I can't fathom why a rules infraction would be called the next day (which is the point of a proper system being in place).  I think most players would own to incurring a penalty when a slow mow is shown. 

It makes no sense to me that a 72 hole event is broken down to 18 hole sections for the purposes of some rules, but not other rules. 

Ciao


I understand, but there are two different things here.
1) as a professional, we should know AND play by the rules.  If we don't do either of those, we do know there will be circumstances.


2) some rules are stupid, and may need to be looked at.  This does not preclude a tournament player from being responsible for their own stupidity.


The supposed couch potatoes would be out of business if every professional knew, and played by the rules.  To be upset that some recluse may have called in a blatant transgression, is missing the point that the transgression took place.  I had numerous penalties I called for my ball moving, well over 15 in my career.  It got to the point that every time I saw a bobble, I was freaked.  Maybe I'm the unluckiest guy on the planet, but what do you do?  Call it or never sleep!!

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #362 on: May 01, 2017, 05:37:40 AM »
Pat,


I reckon 15-20 was about my number also including many Dustin Johnson ball moving on the green deals.
I find it hard to imagine its possible to play for as long as we did and not get into double figures. I was as careful as anyone and it still happens.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #363 on: May 01, 2017, 06:26:13 AM »
Pat/Mike,

That's interesting and I suppose obvious that things like this can happen. Not the same scenario as Lexigate but I wonder if the Tour kept records of how many times and for what the pro's called penalties on themselves, and that info was openly available, would it maybe encourage players to be more honest ?

Niall

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #364 on: May 01, 2017, 06:29:30 AM »
Pat

I guess we either look at the rules in a manner which gives the player the benefit of the doubt or not.  To me, the rule infraction is clear. What is unclear is why the penalty for breaking that rule is doubled or not depending on when it was discovered/reported/ruled upon (and despite what strict rules disciples say...this is what happens)...especially as the player is forced to sign a card after a round. Some people seem to think the 2 shot penalty is not enough to ensure players remain honest....that to me is a very odd opinion.  TV is playing a major role in outing the flawed rule, but it could also be a vindictive player that would like nothing more than to see 2 shots tacked on to the penalty. IMO, the possibility of this happening or by using random tv interference, leaves the game open to disrepute and fails to protect the field. 

I would have no problem with late calls causing a 2 shot penalty should tv be used consistently and equally to make rulings, though if a system like were in place I can't fathom why a rules infraction would be called the next day (which is the point of a proper system being in place).  I think most players would own to incurring a penalty when a slow mow is shown. 

It makes no sense to me that a 72 hole event is broken down to 18 hole sections for the purposes of some rules, but not other rules. 

Ciao


I understand, but there are two different things here.
1) as a professional, we should know AND play by the rules.  If we don't do either of those, we do know there will be circumstances.


2) some rules are stupid, and may need to be looked at.  This does not preclude a tournament player from being responsible for their own stupidity.

The supposed couch potatoes would be out of business if every professional knew, and played by the rules. To be upset that some recluse may have called in a blatant transgression, is missing the point that the transgression took place.  I had numerous penalties I called for my ball moving, well over 15 in my career.  It got to the point that every time I saw a bobble, I was freaked.  Maybe I'm the unluckiest guy on the planet, but what do you do?  Call it or never sleep!!

I agree, there should be consequences for breaking rules and I agree there are rules which at the very least are questionable.  One question I ask is the 2 shot penalty rule for signing to an innaccurate card a good rule? For me, the obvious answer is...it depends...which makes me immediately question the value of the rule.   

A second question I ask is should the use of tv be applied consistently and equally to all players?  That is, should all shots be recorded using the same technology and reviewed by tour officials or should the random method used currently continue? Or, should tv not be used at all?  It is quite clear what I think.

Finally, I ask should cards be signed at the end of each round when it isn't clear if the signature has any value if random scrutinization of the round(s) continues for the length of the tournament?  It seems to me that players are being set-up to fail for the sake of signing a card without a clear reason to do so.  If events are 72 holes, why do they require 4 signatures from the player at the risk of all hell breaking loose?  I can understand 4 signatures from markers....just about, but their signatures aren't worth much if a committee can sign a card.

I contend that the rules are that complicated that it would be highly unusual for players to know all the rules for all situations, tournaments, tours and golf associations.  Hence we have rules officials which in and of itself adds a layer of complication.  What has slowly been happening is that more and more players refuse to take drops etc without advice from an official probably as much these days to avoid penalties as controversy.  I further contend that sometimes, even when the rules are understood, players do not know they have broken a rule. Sometimes it is hard to believe players don't realize they have broken a rule (as is the case with Lexi) and sometimes it is not hard to believe. 

I do think the rules need to be overhauled to simplify.  I also think players need to be better versed in the rules.  At the pro level, I don't think it much matters though.  The die is cast, so long as tv is used to call penalties players will use officials to cover their asses.  This of course also adds to the problem of slow play and ultimately, golf becoming less and less watchable for tv audiences.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 06:36:21 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #365 on: May 01, 2017, 07:29:44 AM »
NiallC


Many times the tour wouldn't even know. Most often you just tell your marker to add one.


I guess in the end there are two sorts of players - those who call it and those who don't. You just never hear of the ones who don't - unless they get caught.


Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #366 on: May 01, 2017, 07:56:34 AM »
It's fine if someone wants to be a 100% follower of the rules...but I would never play with them...they're to uptight...to anal.


Funny, Australia is a country where most club members would play 90% or more of their golf in club competitions that are held 3-6 times weekly and where the rules are followed, all putts holed until pickup time if playing stableford or par. Balls not rolled over unless a local rule allows -- if you get a shit lie you deal with it.


Despite that, the game here is the furthest thing from uptight or anal (apart from the few members every club has...) and even on my windy, fairly extreme 7000-yard course we get around in 4h10 without exception.


One thing I have learned in my travels is that golf is a different game from country to country, often from region to region and sometimes even city to city and you should never be too judgemental about applying your own localised version of the game to the game in general.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 07:58:15 AM by Scott Warren »

Jim Nugent

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #367 on: May 01, 2017, 08:46:57 AM »
Suppose it's the third round of a tour event.  The players are out on the course.  The tour learns (from a call-in or by reviewing video) that a golfer just a stroke or two under the cutline -- who is playing now -- actually should have incurred a penalty (like Lexi) during the second round.  The four strokes (or even two strokes) added to his/her score mean this golfer should have missed the cut.

Does the tour pull the golfer off the course during the 3rd round?  Let him or her keep playing, albeit with the extra 2-4 strokes tacked on?  What about the golfers who otherwise would have made the cut, but didn't due to the wrong score/scorecard? 

I think Sean asks a good question.  Since all these scores are subject to review/change in the following days, why is the player's signature so important after each round?

 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #368 on: May 01, 2017, 09:41:48 AM »
Jim


I have a theory on why cards are signed after each round...could be miles off base though.  I think traditonally the signing of the card was about the clerical aspect of golf.  A quick review of the scores, marker and player agree, add the total...then sign the card.  I don't believe the process was intended to withstand scrutiny over 72 holes. Once the card was signed the deal was closed unless somebody piped up in damn hurry that something was inaccurate. Or if the player later thought about what transcribed (likely after some coaching/discussion with other people) they could call a penalty on themselves and essentially DQ themselves.  Does anybody know of an incident pre tv where somebody other than the player called a penalty the next day which resulted in a DQ?


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Pat Burke

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #369 on: May 01, 2017, 12:19:30 PM »
Pat,


I reckon 15-20 was about my number also including many Dustin Johnson ball moving on the green deals.
I find it hard to imagine its possible to play for as long as we did and not get into double figures. I was as careful as anyone and it still happens.


Mike, not surprised at all, especially with the wind and pace of greens we played on....I had two on one green two separate times as well!!  Amazing how many times I set up and putted while not grounding my club due to feeling it was going to move....part of that feeling usually came from having a hard time getting the ball back down in the same place, and it not wanting to stay there.








Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #370 on: May 01, 2017, 03:33:52 PM »
One question I ask is the 2 shot penalty rule for signing to an innaccurate card a good rule?
Yes. Heck, part of me still thinks it should still be a DQ. Follow the damn rules, whatever they are at the time you play. It's your repsonsibility as a player.

A second question I ask is should the use of tv be applied consistently and equally to all players?
It's not possible.

That is, should all shots be recorded using the same technology and reviewed by tour officials or should the random method used currently continue? Or, should tv not be used at all?  It is quite clear what I think.
a) It's not random now.
b) As I previously said somewhere (possibly not here), even if you assigned one cameraman to every player, they still couldn't do it "equally" because they'd have different angles from different parts of the golf course. A tree might block them one time, or a gallery, or the caddie might put the bag in the way for one player on the 12th hole, or the camera men all choose to stand in different places.

You, Sean, are barking up the wrong tree. You're focused on this "equality" thing, but it doesn't matter, because it's simply too impractical to mandate. It's not "equal" that some players play in the morning and others play in the afternoon. It's not "equal" that players get different playing partners. It's not "equal" that the popular players have larger galleries that can deflect or spot balls.

Finally, I ask should cards be signed at the end of each round when it isn't clear if the signature has any value if random scrutinization of the round(s) continues for the length of the tournament? It seems to me that players are being set-up to fail for the sake of signing a card without a clear reason to do so.
It has value. It's the player's affirmation that their score is correct and that they've followed the rules in place at the time. It allows the tournament committee to make cuts, assign groupings, and conduct the tournament. These reasons are pretty clear.

I contend that the rules are that complicated that it would be highly unusual for players to know all the rules for all situations, tournaments, tours and golf associations.
Lexi knows you're supposed to put the ball back on the spot. And rules officials are out there to assist and inform. I know the rules and I'm not in line to make a few hundred thousand bucks each week… why can't they?

What has slowly been happening is that more and more players refuse to take drops etc without advice from an official probably as much these days to avoid penalties as controversy.
I agree with you on this, but if they take a proper drop, they can never be penalized.

I have a theory on why cards are signed after each round...could be miles off base though.  I think traditonally the signing of the card was about the clerical aspect of golf.  A quick review of the scores, marker and player agree, add the total...then sign the card.  I don't believe the process was intended to withstand scrutiny over 72 holes. Once the card was signed the deal was closed unless somebody piped up in damn hurry that something was inaccurate. Or if the player later thought about what transcribed (likely after some coaching/discussion with other people) they could call a penalty on themselves and essentially DQ themselves.  Does anybody know of an incident pre tv where somebody other than the player called a penalty the next day which resulted in a DQ?
Two quick things… first of all, as you probably know, the player isn't responsible for the addition.

To the bigger point… I think it's important to remember that the Rules of Golf apply to all levels of play, not just the PGA or LPGA Tour. Imagine a situation where a player says to another "Yeah, I hit it in the water on 16 yesterday, took my two clublengths, and saved bogey." The other player says "Isn't the hazard on 16 yellow?" and the first player looks into it and ultimately calls it on herself.

Or a player sees another player dropping on the 18th hole in a club championship while he plays the parallel 12th hole. He assumes the player took an unplayable. The next day someone complains about how the guy he was playing with made a birdie on the 18th… and it was that guy. He informs the other player that he saw him dropping and not near a cart path, flower bed, etc. It comes to be known that the guy cheated.

There are plenty of situations one can imagine where information comes to light later on without the aid of TV, and the scorecard is rendered incorrect, and the penalty is as it should be - stiffer than just the original penalty with nothing added. IMO, of course.


Nicklaus went so far as to hover his club in the rough lest the ball move slightly just from addressing it.

I don't think it's asking too much for the modern pros, who have so much to gain by playing the game, that they know and follow the rules, and take that responsibility seriously.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 03:35:36 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #371 on: May 04, 2017, 02:47:54 PM »
Lexi Thompson, ANA 3rd round, seventh hole, after a long putt lips out, at 59 minutes on the video.


Certainly looks like she marked forward. This is 10 holes before the marking that resulted in the ruling.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FimtXYKPqtI


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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #372 on: May 04, 2017, 11:39:37 PM »
Lexi Thompson, ANA 3rd round, seventh hole, after a long putt lips out, at 59 minutes on the video.


Certainly looks like she marked forward. This is 10 holes before the marking that resulted in the ruling.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FimtXYKPqtI


yikes....
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #373 on: May 05, 2017, 03:56:58 AM »
Lexi Thompson, ANA 3rd round, seventh hole, after a long putt lips out, at 59 minutes on the video.
Certainly looks like she marked forward. This is 10 holes before the marking that resulted in the ruling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FimtXYKPqtI
yikes....
+1
atb

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #374 on: May 05, 2017, 05:06:37 AM »
Two things. Firstly should the authorities now go back to Lexi and ask her to explain herself, with a view to judging whether she cheated, and if they decide she did so should they look to get the prize money back ? And secondly, every time she marks the ball from now on she is likely to be scrutinised by players, officials, spectators and TV viewers alike. Not a nice position to be in
 
Niall

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