[Steve Lang]

  Well then, as a traitor to the rules of golf, and bad "inferred INTENT," sounds like Royal treatment is required... OFF WITH HER HEAD!

sorry Lexi, I was rooting for ya to sink that eagle putt at the 72nd hole and end it otherwise!

[Jim_Coleman]

Erik: I agree with almost everything you wrote, except, needless to say, your response to me.  Calling an infraction days later leads to more trouble than it's worth. What if not calling the infraction allowed a player to make the cut? Do you pull the player off the course Sunday afternoon? And what about all the players who would have made the cut had the infraction been called?
   Yes, allowing infractions to be called until the tournament is over is reasonable and can be defended. I just don't think it's the best point to choose.  As I said, bad calls are part of sports.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Therefore, to protect the integrity of the competition, it is essential to minimize this risk of inequality by NOT accepting outsiders to submit rules infractions.

That makes no sense. Even if only 50% of unseen infractions are reported by "viewers," that's 50% of tournaments that are contested closer to what I'll call "the truth" than would otherwise. Restricting viewers from being able to call in means you're willingly overlooking or ignoring rules infractions.

Competitors are required to KNOW and FOLLOW the Rules of Golf. Lexi failed in this, yet people are quick to blame the person who emailed in. The emailer may have been Lexi's biggest fan. I was a Tiger fan in 2013… Maybe they were looking out for the integrity of the game. You have no idea.

Erik:


The reason I do not like the idea of outsiders injecting calls of rules infractions is that outsiders (non competitors or tournament staff) have no obligation to the field as a whole.  If a competitor or tournament official chooses to ignore an infraction by one player, but calls out the same infraction on another player, that individual has not violated their obligation of equity to the field.  And there can be ramification to this behavior, and therefore, these individuals have a stronger sense of duty per their obligation of equity.
Where as the spectators have NO responsibility to the field or the tournament.


If 20 or so people are willing to move a boulder for Tiger, how likely are they to ignore a rules infraction by Tiger, or call out a rules infraction by Tiger's opponent.


I do realize that if a spectator brings to light a rules infraction, the committee likely needs to take some notice and look in to the matter.  However, although the video on this case does look obvious, video is not always so clear, and occasionally the "obvious" on video is actually deceiving.  Therefore, with the LACK OF OBLIGATION OF FAIRNESS TO THE FIELD and due to TV shots are not always as obvious as the viewer believes, I think it would be best to have as absolute procedure that tournaments do not accept phone calls, emails, text messages about the officiating of their events.


And if someone gets pushy, the response might be that all officiating is handled by competitors and tournament staff only due to the intricacies of the rules of golf and of the running of a tournament; and that these groups feel the current process is more than adequate for the fair running of this event.  If the players or staff feel a change is ever needed, the matter will be reconsidered.


Remember, before TV golf, tournament staff and players were always more than adequate at handling all officiating.
Other than a few individual cases out there, about the only real cheating on the PGA Tour and USGA for the past century was sometime some illegal grooves, giving some advice, and playoff contestants agreeing to split the pot.  These are nothings.  Now since golf on TV and as video improves more and more, we have repeated instances of outsiders catching rules infractions, that are all inadvertent (still penalties, but not a problem for the tours overall of any "cheating behaviors").


If almost all of competitors, tournament staffs, and 99% of the general public do not see rules infractions that are only caught by extreme video assistance and appear to be rare events (a few times per year) as issues that should be handled by later penalty assessments rather than ignored as rare one-offs, then why should a few insist that Jack and Phil, and Tiger, and etc. are wrong to want to ignore these situations.


The vital point Jack & Phil made were not ignoring that a rules infraction occurred, rather their most important points were that if this is an ongoing issue by this player, the tours have always best handled these situations in-house.  I think that point is being ignored.


Just like one does not want to make bad law due to one injustice, one does not want to fix a problem that does not exist.  Golf does not have a cheating problem, so why are those not involved in all aspects of tournament golf (and therefore know all of the histories and best practices currently underway) allowed to interfere with what was working just fine.

[Thomas Dai]

The story about Bobby Jones calling a penalty on himself for accidentally (and unwitnessed) moving his ball in the rough has been mentioned above.
Now once upon a time, Jones was party to another interesting happening, for a (gentle)man who had a tied score with Jones had to be persuaded/lent on to compete in a play-off for a major as he didn't want to break a prior commitment to play in a cricket match the next day!
What if the ultimate play-off winner had taken the stance of "Lexi, sometimes the rules are an ass, you really won this tournament, let's forget about the play-off and just go home."?

Atb

[MClutterbuck]

Does anybody have a link to the full video? Does Lexi mark and place her ball prior her stance and then changing her mind, marking and badly placing? Or does she go to her ball and into her stance directly?


Why does she mark the ball? She does not clean it, she does not rotate it to align anything to the hole, she does not even check if it is dirty. She just moves it to the side...


If this were an unpopular player or an unknown Asian or Latin American, I guarantee there would be little support for them. Lexie has never shown any rules problems that I am aware of, so I personally think we should give her the benefit of the doubt, and move on. But the reality is a lesser known player would have been skewered.

[Marc Haring]

Does anybody have a link to the full video? Does Lexi mark and place her ball prior her stance and then changing her mind, marking and badly placing? Or does she go to her ball and into her stance directly?


Why does she mark the ball? She does not clean it, she does not rotate it to align anything to the hole, she does not even check if it is dirty. She just moves it to the side...

She takes her stance then decides to mark the ball, which does seem to suggest that she saw something, a spike mark or something and goes ahead and does the dodgy act. She then remarks her ball again but we don't see that actual replacement just the start of the marking.

[Mark Pearce]

There was nothing inadvertent or sloppy about the ball placement. She cheated.

Thank you for being the first to have the courage to say this.

[Greg Clark]

Does anybody have a link to the full video? Does Lexi mark and place her ball prior her stance and then changing her mind, marking and badly placing? Or does she go to her ball and into her stance directly?


Why does she mark the ball? She does not clean it, she does not rotate it to align anything to the hole, she does not even check if it is dirty. She just moves it to the side...


If this were an unpopular player or an unknown Asian or Latin American, I guarantee there would be little support for them. Lexie has never shown any rules problems that I am aware of, so I personally think we should give her the benefit of the doubt, and move on. But the reality is a lesser known player would have been skewered.

http://www.golfchannel.com/video/lpga-rules-official-breaks-down-thompson-penalty/


This shows most of what you are looking for. 


In regards to a "viewer calling in" this typically is assumed to be a Paul from Peoria watching the event on TV drinking his beer.  I just don't buy this at all.  The LPGA official that was interviewd on the broadcast shortly after the ruling, stated they became aware of an email while Thompson was playing the 7th hole of her final round.  Does anyone really believe that an average Joe would have the ability to get a phone call or an email to the attention of key officials during the playing of the final round of a major?  Come on.  The LPGA has people fielding calls and emails during play?  Doubt it.  There isn't some hotline they are publishing for such things.  And ultimately I think they would be much happier if this was not brought to their attention at all.


IMO this has to have been someone with some stroke and the knowledge of how to get the attention of the right people.  Or someone at ABC/ESPN that noticed it.  We have had several of these "viewer" incidents over the last several years.  I have never seen a follow up story of the guy/gal that "called it in" and subsequently stepped forward to claim their fifteen minutes of fame.  Not once. Maybe I have missed it.  Surely at least one person of all these callers would want to get noticed and defend their saving the honor of the game.


Rather, I think the public is getting a bad rap on this whole thing.  The average Joe wouldn't know how to get the right message through to the right person, and I doubt the Tours would give such a person the time of day.  Color me skeptical.

[Sean_A]

There was nothing inadvertent or sloppy about the ball placement. She cheated.

Thank you for being the first to have the courage to say this.

Its good to be so clear about the intentions of others...I wish I had your powers. 


So we are clear, the rule seems to be that until a winner for a tournament is crowned, anybody from anywhere can raise a rules violation about any of the shots hit over 4 days.  Yep, I think its time this approach to running a tournament should be re-thought. One question though, why stop at when a winner is crowned?  Why can't a victory be potentially stripped from someone a day, a week or a year after the event?  If the issue is getting the correct ruling and time sensitivity is secondary, what is the logic in saying its fine that someone cheated once the cheques are handed out, but not if it was 30 minutes earlier?


Ciao

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Erik, this is incorrect. The Rules of Golf did allow for the two-stroke option since the committee had intervened already. This was not unprecedented and covered by prior decisions.

IIRC they hadn't talked to him. They "intervened" without actually intervening at all. It was all a little fishy. I was the guy who called after his post-round conference and helped ultimately add the extra two shots for playing from a wrong place. David Eger had called while Tiger was still on the course, when the committee supposedly decided his drop was okay. But they never talked to him about it… that was my point. Had they, they might have discovered he deserved the two strokes right away, and so my efforts wouldn't have been needed. As it turned out, he too signed an incorrect scorecard. He got away with it because the committee had supposedly decided (without talking to him about it) that his drop was okay. His post-round comments put them up a creek…

Erik: I agree with almost everything you wrote, except, needless to say, your response to me.  Calling an infraction days later leads to more trouble than it's worth. What if not calling the infraction allowed a player to make the cut? Do you pull the player off the course Sunday afternoon? And what about all the players who would have made the cut had the infraction been called?

I disagree. I believe the truth and the integrity of the competition is most important. The USGA/R&A likely agree, which is why they've never changed this rule since Craig Stadler was DQed over kneeling on a towel in 1987 - 30 years ago.

Yeah, you pull the player. If other players would have made the cut, but instead went home, give 'em the last x places of money divided up equally, credit for making the cut, and call it a day - if they want to blame someone for not getting the chance to move up the leaderboard, they can blame the player who didn't live up to her obligations to know and follow the rules and to write down the proper score.

I believe in getting things as "right" as possible. Regardless of the source of the info. The player still committed a breach of the rules, and deserves to be penalized for it.

The reason I do not like the idea of outsiders injecting calls of rules infractions is that outsiders (non competitors or tournament staff) have no obligation to the field as a whole.

That's feels like an awfully weak excuse, though. An on-site spectator has no obligation to the field as a whole but can report an infraction they witness. So too could a caddie - despite not being able to see "the field as a whole." An off-duty rules official, the same. It's just information, and nobody can "make up" an infraction that leads to a penalty.

If a competitor or tournament official chooses to ignore an infraction by one player, but calls out the same infraction on another player, that individual has not violated their obligation of equity to the field.

Yes they have. You don't get to ignore infractions in stroke play.

If 20 or so people are willing to move a boulder for Tiger, how likely are they to ignore a rules infraction by Tiger, or call out a rules infraction by Tiger's opponent.

I feel as though you're missing the point that it's not like they can just make things up. They can only call out actual infractions.

Don't want to be penalized or called out? Don't breach the rules. You're obligated to know and follow them, and then to attest to the veracity of the score you shot under those rules.

I think it would be best to have as absolute procedure that tournaments do not accept phone calls, emails, text messages about the officiating of their events.

And I think you're nuts. In the nicest way possible! 

I also think, given time to answer, that a player would rather be tagged with four strokes and finish second or third rather than have them win and then have a video surface on Monday that shows them breaching the rules in a way that would have had them finish second.

Remember, before TV golf, tournament staff and players were always more than adequate at handling all officiating.

Now they're more than adequate. They have more sources of information and more capability to get things "right."

Other than a few individual cases out there, about the only real cheating on the PGA Tour and USGA for the past century was sometime some illegal grooves, giving some advice, and playoff contestants agreeing to split the pot.  These are nothings.  Now since golf on TV and as video improves more and more, we have repeated instances of outsiders catching rules infractions, that are all inadvertent (still penalties, but not a problem for the tours overall of any "cheating behaviors").

That's the thing… these people aren't catching non-infractions. You have to breach the rules for the call-in to matter at all.

I disagree with you, Bill. Pure and simple. I'm in favor of maintaining the integrity of a competition as much as possible. That means considering anything, regardless of the source.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Wayne Defrancesco thinks that she cheated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKYkDyWI0QI.


I still think it was a brain fart or something, but… a bit less so than I did on Sunday/Monday.

[Ken Moum]

Wayne Defrancesco thinks that she cheated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKYkDyWI0QI.


I still think it was a brain fart or something, but… a bit less so than I did on Sunday/Monday.

Thank you for  your previous post, it sums up nearly everything I've thought the past couple of days... nearly.


First, I have had it with the idea that in the "Game of Honor," the surest way to branded an asshole is to know the rules and expect people to play by them.


Second, the curtain has finally been pulled back on that charade, as it relates to golf at the highest level. Phil, Jack, Duval and Chamblee all admitted yesterday that cheating wasn't rare, and none of them admitted to any of the culprits being penalized. Hell, Brandel told a story about a guy who mismarked his ball "all day," and that it drove him nuts... but no mention of penalties.


Third, if these f_ckers get their way re. banning call-ins, someday, probably sooner rather than later, someone is going to win a tournament, the video of the infraction is going to go viral and the "Game of Honor," is toast.


Finally, since I believe this crap is all a product of Americans thinking golf is supposed to be fair, I have the PERFECT solution:


Let the pros play EVERY round under lift clean and place, EVERYWHERE... even on the putting green.


K

[Pete_Pittock]

The LPGA video should be watched.  Many of the other videos end showing Lexi's hand moving back down towards the ball. That is poor editing and does not happen when you watch the entire sequence.

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,


There are two separate issues here.  Is it right that any tournament should have its result left susceptible to public interference post-round and whether Thompson deserves all of the g  We're talking about a professionalushings of sympathy she has received.  As to the first, I don't disagree with the majority view.  The uncertainty alone is unacceptable.  Once a round is completed, that should be that.


However, that isn't the most serious issue here.  hen was the last time you incorrectly replaced a ball?  I doubt you've done it in years.  We're taling about a professional who earns her (very substantial) living playing the game.  According to Mickelson he thinks incorrect replacement of the ball is endemic in the men's game.  Let's be clear, this isn't about taking an inch or two off a putt, it's to improve a lie on a green where there may be a spike mark or indentation.  Now maybe the rules should allow replacement within, say, an inch, to enable players to avoid that (I don't think so, others might) but, as the rules are now, replacing your ball in a different spot is a breach of the rules.  Doing so deliberately or with negligence is cheating.

[Thomas Dai]

Perhaps the records should be amended and Brian Watts be given a replica claret jug engraved 1998 Open after the length of time of the Mark O'Meara lost ball incident?
Atb

[Sean_A]

Mark

I agree, there are a few different issues in play.  I am not concerned about the actual infraction.  I am concerned as to where the source witness for the infraction came and more importantly, when the penalty is assessed.  I am for fair rules which are consistently applied.  IMO, it is unacceptable to assess a penalty half way through the next day's round then tack on 2 shots for incorrectly signed card.  This is neither fair nor consistent simply because the source of the info is random and the timing is very late.  If a tourny is going to be seen a legitimately administered, this aspect of random people calling infractions is well out of bounds. 

As I said previously, I would be more in favour of issuing fines (even suspensions) if infractions are caught after the day's play.  Or perhaps if the evidence is shown to the player when available thus leaving it up to the player to call the penalty on him/herself.  This is still a bit of crap shoot because in this case the player was mid-round.  What, are they gonna stop play to discuss what happened the day before?  But I presume that is what happened anyway when the penalty was assessed.  Its nonsense because the clock cannot be turned back.  Things have happened based on what people thought to be the case. 

I have never been in favour of video replay reffing because it removes a human element to sports which is very important...at least it was when and where I grew up, accept the decision and move on.  But this was when decisions were made on the spot...and a no call is a decision so far as I am concerned.  There is a balance to be had between getting the best possible call issued and the underlining of a round in reasonable time. Clearly waiting until mid-round the next day is well beyond the pale.  It isn't logical or consistent to do this, but not be willing to the same thing after the cheques are passed out.  Common sense must prevail at some point. Disagreement and public outcry about calls and no calls is the one consistent aspect of sport. Why golf is trying the impossible of setting itself above this is laughable.

Ciao 

[Niall C]

Sean


I too am not a fan of video refereeing. For instance to my mind there are just as many dodgy decisions in international rugby matches as there used to be, and most made by the TMO. However in golf where you have an obvious breach of the rules, and likely intentional at that, it should matter not a jot who points it out.


For all those saying you should ignore phone in witnesses, I wonder what they think about the TV commentators saying something on air ? Imagine if no one on the ground spots something but the guy in the box does, and comments on it, do you ignore that as well if you are on the rules committee ?


Niall

[Mark Pearce]

The problem is that players seem unwilling to call their competitors.  Why hasn't Mickelson, who acknowledges that it's a problem, spoken to the other players?  If he has and perpetrators continue, has he not called it?  Someone did that to Saltman, why can't players on the PGA/LPGA/European tours do it?


I think we all agree that 'phone in reffing is a terrible thing but, if the players won't police themselves, who will?

[Jon Wiggett]

The problem is that players seem unwilling to call their competitors.  Why hasn't Mickelson, who acknowledges that it's a problem, spoken to the other players?  If he has and perpetrators continue, has he not called it?  Someone did that to Saltman, why can't players on the PGA/LPGA/European tours do it?


I think we all agree that 'phone in reffing is a terrible thing but, if the players won't police themselves, who will?

Mark,


there is the rule where by if players agree to wave a rule in strokeplay that both are disqualified so generally if a player sees an infringement than both players face being thrown out. However, many players are not aware of this and others choose not to look (what I don't see....) The role of honesty needs to be drummed into the players far more than at present.


Jon

[Steve Lang]

   YES, BY ALL MEANS, DRUM IT (the rules) INTO THEM


perhaps just a film... https://youtu.be/0BXbgwS8pDo

[Thomas Dai]

.......I wonder what they think about the TV commentators saying something on air ? Imagine if no one on the ground spots something but the guy in the box does, and comments on it, do you ignore that as well if you are on the rules committee ?

Niall,
This happened at the '98 Open at Birkdale. Fourth round 1st hole, Tiger 'pushes' the ball in from a couple of inches, no backswing, straight 'push'. Peter Alliss spotsted it and rages about it for quite some time live on air. Bugger all happened.
Atb

[Thomas Dai]

The problem is that players seem unwilling to call their competitors.  Why hasn't Mickelson, who acknowledges that it's a problem, spoken to the other players?  If he has and perpetrators continue, has he not called it?  Someone did that to Saltman, why can't players on the PGA/LPGA/European tours do it?
I think we all agree that 'phone in reffing is a terrible thing but, if the players won't police themselves, who will?

I recall Jarmo Sandelin being involved in some kind of 'call' against Mark O'Meara, late 1990's/early 2000's. Bugger all happened penalty wise but Jarmo got roasted by a certain element within the pro ranks and in some sections of the media as well. 'Mark No-nearer' was a phrase that Jarmo's slim number of supporters were using.


I believe there's been a bit of a fued between Tom Watson and Gary Player ever since a TV Skins game back in the 1980's or thereabouts when called an infrigement on Gary.


There was a nice response by Graeme Marsh one time again involving Gary Player. World Matchplay at Wentworth. Gary tees off on the 16th. Marsh then tees one up only for Gary to 'suggest' his ball was in front of the markers. Marsh's response was along the line of "Perhaps you need to tee up another one then Gary, coz I've placed my ball in exactly the same spot you did!"


Atb

[Marc Haring]

Yes Thomas,"the Player/Marsh incident" is shown here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX_jpRdYCp4


Seems that Player is a bit of a recurring theme in such discussions. Wasn't there a lost ball controversy at Lytham in 1974?

[Sean_A]

Sean

For all those saying you should ignore phone in witnesses, I wonder what they think about the TV commentators saying something on air ? Imagine if no one on the ground spots something but the guy in the box does, and comments on it, do you ignore that as well if you are on the rules committee ?

Niall

Niall

Commentators comment on missed calls all the time in other sports...its part of sport.  Golf isn't so special where a commentator shouldn't be allowed to discuss what he believes are penalties, mistakes, misconduct etc etc.  Every fan knows that much goes uncalled or wrongly called in any given game.  Its is golf which has the obsession with this ticky tacky approach to administering the rules...to the detriment of the game and the viewing pleasure.

Ciao

[Carl Nichols]

The problem is that players seem unwilling to call their competitors.  Why hasn't Mickelson, who acknowledges that it's a problem, spoken to the other players?  If he has and perpetrators continue, has he not called it?  Someone did that to Saltman, why can't players on the PGA/LPGA/European tours do it?
I think we all agree that 'phone in reffing is a terrible thing but, if the players won't police themselves, who will?

I recall Jarmo Sandelin being involved in some kind of 'call' against Mark O'Meara, late 1990's/early 2000's. Bugger all happened penalty wise but Jarmo got roasted by a certain element within the pro ranks and in some sections of the media as well. 'Mark No-nearer' was a phrase that Jarmo's slim number of supporters were using.


I believe there's been a bit of a fued between Tom Watson and Gary Player ever since a TV Skins game back in the 1980's or thereabouts when called an infrigement on Gary.


There was a nice response by Graeme Marsh one time again involving Gary Player. World Matchplay at Wentworth. Gary tees off on the 16th. Marsh then tees one up only for Gary to 'suggest' his ball was in front of the markers. Marsh's response was along the line of "Perhaps you need to tee up another one then Gary, coz I've placed my ball in exactly the same spot you did!"


Atb

I just watched the video and it looks like Graeme did the suggesting to Gary.

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