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Pat Burke

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #225 on: April 04, 2017, 07:10:16 PM »
George


I'm with you.


Am I right in saying that the player was never asked to explain her action and was simply judged not to have done it deliberately ?


Pat B


If one of your competitors was prone to doing that back in your day, do you really think the occasional penalty shot would be enough ? As I said, haven't seen the incident but if it is anything like the other LPG player someone posted a link to then it was clearly a deliberate attempt to cheat. Do you think penalty strokes is enough of a punishment ?


Niall


I know one pretty well known player from back then that pulled a guy aside and basically told him to start marking his ball properly or there'd be a huge problem


I asked caddies and players in my group to watch a couple players when I thought I saw something sketchy, but we never saw a mark as bad as what I saw this week

BCowan

Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #226 on: April 04, 2017, 07:52:32 PM »
Pat and or Mike C,

    Do you think pro's policed the game better during Jack Nicklaus days?  Could today's players be too self absorbed in their practice routines ect.  Jack Nicklaus and others handled these issues like real men.  Are today's players out to lunch? 

Mark Pavy

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #227 on: April 04, 2017, 07:53:44 PM »
A big long thread all because a pro golfer failed in the simple act of replacing a ball correctly. If she replaces correctly, no thread.

What would you have done in this situation?

This is what I would have done, on hearing the penalty I would have asked to see it before commenting, as soon as I saw it, I would have been extremely embarrassed, said what kind of idiot am I to make such a simple mistake, accept the penalty and say how lucky was I, that I wasn't disqualified.


So if you were a Professional Golfer with a responsibility to uphold the integrity of the game, TV cameras everywhere and a complete understanding of the Rules of Golf, you're telling me that there is even a slight chance you could do what she did? I doubt that.


This has occurred because she thought what she did was acceptable, Phil's statement confirms that it's a widespread problem. She cheated, all the other Tour Pros who prefer their ball on the green are cheating and the Tour Pros who come out in support of Lexi also need to have their integrity questioned.

Padraig Dooley

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #228 on: April 04, 2017, 08:05:39 PM »
A big long thread all because a pro golfer failed in the simple act of replacing a ball correctly. If she replaces correctly, no thread.

What would you have done in this situation?

This is what I would have done, on hearing the penalty I would have asked to see it before commenting, as soon as I saw it, I would have been extremely embarrassed, said what kind of idiot am I to make such a simple mistake, accept the penalty and say how lucky was I, that I wasn't disqualified.


So if you were a Professional Golfer with a responsibility to uphold the integrity of the game, TV cameras everywhere and a complete understanding of the Rules of Golf, you're telling me that there is even a slight chance you could do what she did? I doubt that.


This has occurred because she thought what she did was acceptable, Phil's statement confirms that it's a widespread problem. She cheated, all the other Tour Pros who prefer their ball on the green are cheating and the Tour Pros who come out in support of Lexi also need to have their integrity questioned.

You're right I wouldn't have done that but on the off chance I was distracted and had a complete blank that's how I would react.
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Mike_Young

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #229 on: April 04, 2017, 08:17:17 PM »
Watch her feet in the video:  I think I detected a stutter-step.

Bogey
I saw that....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JMEvensky

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #230 on: April 04, 2017, 08:29:48 PM »



I know one pretty well known player from back then that pulled a guy aside and basically told him to start marking his ball properly or there'd be a huge problem







Wouldn't self policing by the players be the easiest way to resolve an issue like this? I thought that was the way it was done back in the day.

Mike_Young

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #231 on: April 04, 2017, 08:51:22 PM »
Bad marks happen in golf and bad calls happen on TV but no other sport allows an armchair troll with an 80inch 4K monitor and a remote control to dial in a penalty post contest. Additionally, this is a sponsor driven revenue for play and broadcast business.  The funding supports the ability to have golf on TV, which I believe is a good thing. This process devalues the product, the players and is a professional disservice to the sponsor ANA who's investment and name association has been trashed by title, word association, click, post, share and graphic replay.

At some point there needs to be change as this is "Grow the game... with Roundup".
Chief Marketing Officers of companies sponsoring the LPGA should be on the phone with a warning... please tell me how this is going to be fixed and avoided during the tournament bearing my company's name.


IMHO , the above is the big thing here.  Example...A large advertiser with NBC/GC tells the producer, who sits in the trailer and chooses the video on the screen, not to show any close ups of their main player etc.. OR  producer has it in for another player and decides to make an effort to " lose-up" the guy whenever he can....  I don't like the rule but today it is the rule...but there is no arguing that those not connected with the competition can actually screw the field more than protect it...
It's possible TV or Vegas or whomever could affect the outcome with video.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Clayton

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #232 on: April 04, 2017, 08:56:32 PM »
Ben,


It shows when we see today's pros leaving the ball by the hole when their playing partner is chipping - and they could easily mark it. It's 'cheating' if you consider helping one player to the detriment of the rest of the field is a definition of 'cheating'


We all knew who the dodgy guys were in Europe but calling it was tough because it was always one word against another. Gordon Brand Jnr and Paul Way called a Spanish player in Madrid in 1983 and they were the ones castigated - when all the players knew they were in the right.

Mike Schott

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #233 on: April 04, 2017, 09:12:52 PM »
   The fact that the caller may have an ulterior motive seems irrelevant to me. A violation is a violation. But why have the end of the tournament be the arbitrary cut off time? The day of the infraction makes more sense. If the violation is discovered later, so be it. Bad calls occur in all sports.


The NBA regularly comments on bad calls by officials. They don't change the outcome of games though. Rulings like this one are the reason that the casual golf fan thinks the game is snobby and out of touch. I watch the LPGA and a lot of golf and think making a ruling a day later based on an email is insanely stupid. Of course Thompson didn't realize she made the mistake of may have called it on herself but isn't there a rules official with each group?

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #234 on: April 04, 2017, 10:00:18 PM »
Building on Phil's comment today;
 how many Rules officials on this site, if they saw Lexi's mark, but were too late stop her from putting out, would have given her a warning vs. informing her that she needed to add 2 penalty strokes?
And I say this beacause if the ball replacement was witnessed onsite, it probably looked borderline, as opposed to how it looks with the extreme zoom-in TV shot.


Same question for those who have competed at upper levels.
Do you give a "friendly warning"; and would you feel comfortable that was adequate?  (Consider this is the 1st time you have seen this issue by the player in question.)
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Mike_Clayton

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #235 on: April 04, 2017, 10:09:12 PM »
Bill,


I can say I only saw it once in 20 years on the tour and it was in Asia.
Peter Thomson had the best attitude to cheating and once told someone who complained about it 'Don't worry about those guys - they are easy to beat. Worry about the blokes who can play.'

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #236 on: April 04, 2017, 11:01:34 PM »
Back in the day, this putt would not have been marked by pros and just putted in the hole. Today, the ball has to aligned "correctly" before putting. However,  needless to say, the " call in" or "email in" possible violations should be eliminated entirely and let the players call out possible violations or bring in  a Rules official if one is not following the group. IMHO, a Rules official should be following each group in major championships.  It's just not fair since TV does not follow each group for every hole in any tour or USGA championship event.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

jeffwarne

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #237 on: April 05, 2017, 12:16:32 AM »


 Tour Pros who come out in support of Lexi also need to have their integrity questioned.


Wow!
I'd be more concerned about the people who automatically assumed she was cheating-they say it takes one to know one.
Looked to me like she was too busy aiming her line on the ball while looking at the hole....
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David_Elvins

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #238 on: April 05, 2017, 01:44:54 AM »
IMHO, a Rules official should be following each group in major championships.  It's just not fair since TV does not follow each group for every hole in any tour or USGA championship event.


Steve,


Rules are not there for the purpose of doling out fair and equitable punishments.  They are about influencing behaviour.  People follow rules because of the threat of possibly being caught out.  Everyone knows that the threat of being caught is random in nature and not based on any idea of fairness, whether it's a speeding ticket or a golf rules infraction. 


I guarantee you that not one player at the Masters this week will incorrectly mark their ball. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #239 on: April 05, 2017, 02:03:37 AM »
David,


Nevertheless, the "optics" to the golfing world, for the most part, do not look good for the USGA  and R&A. Golf is the only sport that can apply a retroactive decision during the course of competition. Other sports make decisions immediately via "instant replay."Other sports, even Euro/FIFA football,  can issue an apology if the "instant replay" was wrongly decided.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #240 on: April 05, 2017, 04:07:52 AM »



Looked to me like she was too busy aiming her line on the ball while looking at the hole....


Don't think the lines on the ball were lined up with the hole after the marking.


Personally I think if it was unintentional then she is an habitual cheat because that is one dodgy move.


Video here again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSIXlwHRR7M

Sean_A

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #241 on: April 05, 2017, 04:24:18 AM »

Steve,

People follow rules because of the threat of possibly being caught out. 


I am not convinced this is an accurate statement for a large percentage of the population who play golf.

It is my belief that I have rarely seen a person break the rules to gain an advantage.  Usually it is a matter of ignorance or carelessness.  Shit, I rarely watch people for rules stuff, my main goal is to watch where the ball goes so its easier to find.  So for me to catch a person misplacing their ball, taking a dodgy drop etc would be a miracle. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #242 on: April 05, 2017, 06:35:02 AM »
Sean


The funniest cheating story I've heard is from a schoolboy tournament I played in the very early 70s


One kid's father was caught hitting a shot for his son from deep in the trees.

Bruce Katona

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George Pazin

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #244 on: April 05, 2017, 10:43:12 AM »
   The fact that the caller may have an ulterior motive seems irrelevant to me. A violation is a violation. But why have the end of the tournament be the arbitrary cut off time? The day of the infraction makes more sense. If the violation is discovered later, so be it. Bad calls occur in all sports.


The NBA regularly comments on bad calls by officials. They don't change the outcome of games though. Rulings like this one are the reason that the casual golf fan thinks the game is snobby and out of touch. I watch the LPGA and a lot of golf and think making a ruling a day later based on an email is insanely stupid. Of course Thompson didn't realize she made the mistake of may have called it on herself but isn't there a rules official with each group?


Those NBA games are over. In golf, if this had been discovered after the competition had been closed, there would have been no penalty (though I would hope someone would discuss the matter with the golfer). Furthermore, the ruling was not based on the email, the ruling was based on video evidence. What prompted them to look is completely immaterial to the facts of the case. Once notified, they have an obligation to look. Once they look, they have an obligation to take action.


It's amazing to me that people are asking rules officials to ignore evidence. I get that people don't like the call ins and emails, but certainly the call ins are not coming from armchair fans - would anyone out there know what number to call? The email may have come in 5 minutes after the incident, but it took awhile for someone to discover it. Does the timing of the email affect the facts of the case?


Phil's response is simply mind-boggling; sure, guys cheat all the time. We need to call them on it, but when it's called on Lexi because of an email that prompted a video review, that's just wrong. WTF?


There are plenty of sports where people outside of the action influence events. Commissioners in sports vacate titles all the time, based on drug tests or other evidence of cheating, sometimes months or even years after the fact.


I'm sorry, but the logic of those outraged by this incident - the ruling, not the actions of the careless player - is just weak, shoddy thinking. That's my opinion, I could certainly be wrong, but it's my opinion nevertheless. You're entitled to your outrage of how it was handled, but the ruling is pretty straightforward to me, and it's all due to one golfer's inability to simply and easily mark a very short putt - at best.


-----


Mike Young, ignoring visual evidence because you're worried about things such as you describe seems a bit excessive to me.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Chris Cupit

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #245 on: April 05, 2017, 11:10:02 AM »
Back in the day, this putt would not have been marked by pros and just putted in the hole. Today, the ball has to aligned "correctly" before putting. However,  needless to say, the " call in" or "email in" possible violations should be eliminated entirely and let the players call out possible violations or bring in  a Rules official if one is not following the group. IMHO, a Rules official should be following each group in major championships.  It's just not fair since TV does not follow each group for every hole in any tour or USGA championship event.


FWIW, I have officiated at professional majors and at the players' urging the practice of officials being with every group is stopping. In the past there WAS an official walking with every group of the US Open, US Senior Open and the US Women's Open. This year for all the Opens the USGA will utilize zone officials and/or hole officials who remain stationary.  Again, this is because the players do not want to feel like people are hovering over them and I do understand this.  I think some officials in the past had become "officious" and while I think that I was great at not being so  ;D , I get why the players don't want an "entourage" following them down the fairway.

But the notion that an official with every group could stop breaches like this doesn't understand where officials try and position themselves.  For years now at the US Open officials were asked to walk the "rope line" which is a considerable distance away.  We are never to initiate a conversation with a player or caddie and even if spoken to, we should try and "get away" as soon as possible without being rude.  We look down a lot at our shoes when on the teeing ground :)  .

After being introduced at the first tee I literally try and be invisible and only when I anticipate a possible situation will I "emerge" and look for eye contact or a sign a player wants my help.  This is 99% non verbal and I can usually tell when I am needed.  It is extremely rare for me to be near a green and we are cautioned to never walk on a green unless its absolutely necessary.

The only way to spot issues like Lexi's would be for a fellow competitor, caddie, drone or TV to "catch" the event.  I am going to guess that the players' unions will come out strongly against drones even though they could be easily used, out of sight and used on every hole.  You could watch an aerial view of the breaking putts which would be cool--imagine some of the views of this weeks putts!!  I will say the civil libertarian in me thinks this would be a tad creepy too!  It is a shame to even think this way I guess but IF the goal was to be able to "fairly and completely" when viewing everything so that all are treated the same, this is a solution.  But I also understand this: lawyers don't like suing lawyers, doctors don't like contradicting other doctors, players don't like calling penalties on other players and society hates snitches.

As an official I view my job as to help the players avoid any penalty, protect them at times from gallery distractions and be as unnoticed as possible.  A great day is when absolutely nothing happens other than lots of good golf.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 11:14:10 AM by Chris Cupit »

Marc Haring

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #246 on: April 05, 2017, 11:22:12 AM »

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #247 on: April 05, 2017, 12:13:09 PM »
The rules are supposed to be applied fairly to all participants. Since all participants are not on TV you cant apply a video decision exclusively to one participant. If her partner calls it who is supposed to protect the field then the penalty should apply until the next hole is started or round is completed.
Equity is not fairness, no. You'll never get "fairness" - more popular players have larger crowds that can spot or deflect balls headed OB, players play under different weather conditions because of tee times, etc.

How lousy would it be for a person seen to be breaking the rules, not be penalized because of some rule y'all want to create out of emotion right now, and then go on to win by one anyway?

Anyone saying video shouldn't be allowed to make this type of ruling is essentially saying players should be able to get away with this type of infraction. A player's fellow competitors are concentrating on his/her own putts and can't be looking like hawks to ensure everyone is replacing his/her ball in the right spot. Neither can officials be expected to do so, especially if they are prohibited from "going to the video" to confirm what they think they saw.
And to those arguing that the caller/emailer might have an agenda other than the pure protection of the rules, it's not as if he/she made the definitive call on it. The LPGA received the email, examined the evidence and agreed with what was emailed, and then instituted the penalty. If the content of the email wasn't proven true, there wouldn't have been an issue.
Yes.

So if a player is not on TV they can mark their ball anywhere and their playing partner has no responsibility to protect the field. Not a chance in hell.
That's not what he said.

My solution would be the following:
Unless the committee is convinced that the act was done intentionally and to gain an advantage over the field, any rules violation detected after the round is completed shall not be assessed a penalty.
No thank you. The rules are breached whether you intended to or not, and whether you gain an advantage or not. The rules are best when they look at the actions taken by the player, not the intent. Intent is only a part of a few rules for this reason (like in making a stroke, when it's usually pretty clear.)

Golfdigest think that the proposed rules would have allowed the rules committee could avoid giving Lexi a penalty under a 'reasonable judgement standard'.
I don't think it would. I know the proposed rule explanation says marking the ball, but you're not estimating or measuring anything there, and even if they expand it to include that, she didn't do a good job of putting it on the right spot. Her spot was not reasonable.

The fact that the caller may have an ulterior motive seems irrelevant to me. A violation is a violation. But why have the end of the tournament be the arbitrary cut off time? The day of the infraction makes more sense. If the violation is discovered later, so be it. Bad calls occur in all sports.
Because it's a 72-hole event, and the things that occur throughout that 72 holes "add up" to the final result. The close of the competition is as good a point as any to stop considering these types of disputes. Actually, the best spot.

Therefore, to protect the integrity of the competition, it is essential to minimize this risk of inequality by NOT accepting outsiders to submit rules infractions.
That makes no sense. Even if only 50% of unseen infractions are reported by "viewers," that's 50% of tournaments that are contested closer to what I'll call "the truth" than would otherwise. Restricting viewers from being able to call in means you're willingly overlooking or ignoring rules infractions.

Competitors are required to KNOW and FOLLOW the Rules of Golf. Lexi failed in this, yet people are quick to blame the person who emailed in. The emailer may have been Lexi's biggest fan. I was a Tiger fan in 2013… Maybe they were looking out for the integrity of the game. You have no idea.

It is fellow competitors job to pay attention to their fellow players in a tournament.
No, it isn't. It's the player's responsibility to know and follow the rules themselves. It's the player's responsibility to report rules violations they SEE, but they don't have to follow each other around the course and watch like hawks. That's not at all their "job."

I still believe--hope--that the new "reasonable judgment" standard in the proposed USGA rules would cause a different outcome in the future.  That's what Golf Digest thinks.  We'll see.
I think they're wrong. Her replacement wasn't reasonable.

As a player, and assuming we no longer accepted call ins, if you were in shape for a high finish and then it was revealed after a round and before the competition was over that you were in breach and should have been penalized what do you do?  There are so many implications at the professional level and I wonder if a player who may have benefited from a missed call may not really benefit in the long run at all.  Wouldn't there be lots of pressure to WD?
There were calls for Tiger to WD since he "should" have been DQed from the Masters in 2013… except that the "committee" had apparently already ruled, without talking to him, that his drop was "okay," only to reverse their decision after I contacted some people after Tiger's post-round interview. :-P But anyway, there were still people asking for Tiger to "do the right thing" and WD since he really should have been DQed (under the rules then there was no two-stroke option).
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 12:16:34 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #248 on: April 05, 2017, 12:32:00 PM »
Having now seen the incident, I really don't think she has any defence. Just because others do it and her playing partners didn't see it doesn't mean she wasn't guilty of infringing the rules. What I'd be interested to know is whether any official questioned her on her intent.


Calling someone a cheat isn't nice but sometimes that's what needs to be done if the rules are to retain any integrity. In this instance I think she would struggle to say she wasn't deliberately giving herself a better lie.


One things for sure, irrespective of what people think, I'll bet most amateur golfers will be a lot more careful next time they tee it up in a comp.


Niall

MClutterbuck

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #249 on: April 05, 2017, 01:32:50 PM »

There were calls for Tiger to WD since he "should" have been DQed from the Masters in 2013… except that the "committee" had apparently already ruled, without talking to him, that his drop was "okay," only to reverse their decision after I contacted some people after Tiger's post-round interview. :-P But anyway, there were still people asking for Tiger to "do the right thing" and WD since he really should have been DQed (under the rules then there was no two-stroke option).


Erik, this is incorrect. The Rules of Golf did allow for the two-stroke option since the committee had intervened already. This was not unprecedented and covered by prior decisions.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 01:59:29 PM by MClutterbuck »

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