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Jim Hoak

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #200 on: April 04, 2017, 11:46:42 AM »
Jim, I don't agree.  There is some mystery in marking/placing.  It will never be literally exact.  Is off by .01 cm ok?  How about .02 cm?  You get the idea.
Remember that Tiger's drop at Augusta on #15 which needed to be as near as possible where he had played from was judged ok (at a foot-and-a-half) until he ran his mouth off at the press conference.
What does it mean to say that a player or caddie can't stand "on or near" the line of his player/partner.  What does "near" mean?  One foot?  Two feet?
I read the proposed USGA rule as allowing reasonable judgment in all these matters.  But as I said, we'll see.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 11:48:29 AM by Jim Hoak »

George Pazin

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #201 on: April 04, 2017, 12:17:20 PM »
That's interesting. I can't imagine a less appealing standard for any sports rule than "reasonable judgment". That would make me want to quit officiating, were I an official. To me, that's the Pandora's box of any rules discussion.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #202 on: April 04, 2017, 12:36:30 PM »
George, that standard is used everyday in the courts of law.  It basically just means, where does the presumption lie.  Absent other evidence, the judgment of the player prevails.  Not perfect, maybe--but what rule of law or sports is?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #203 on: April 04, 2017, 12:59:45 PM »
Jim,


Tiger didn't miss his spot by a foot and a half. He moved back up the hill several yards to get away from the in-between shot he just had. That could never be considered "as near as possible". The other "as near as possible" scenarios make that clear.


Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #204 on: April 04, 2017, 01:01:00 PM »
George


I'm with you.


Am I right in saying that the player was never asked to explain her action and was simply judged not to have done it deliberately ?


Pat B


If one of your competitors was prone to doing that back in your day, do you really think the occasional penalty shot would be enough ? As I said, haven't seen the incident but if it is anything like the other LPG player someone posted a link to then it was clearly a deliberate attempt to cheat. Do you think penalty strokes is enough of a punishment ?


Niall

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #205 on: April 04, 2017, 01:02:11 PM »
Jim,


Tiger didn't miss his spot by a foot and a half. He moved back up the hill several yards to get away from the in-between shot he just had. That could never be considered "as near as possible". The other "as near as possible" scenarios make that clear.


It wasn't a foot and a half. It also wasn't several yards. Those are exaggerations. It was about a yard and a half to two yards off.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Chris Roselle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #206 on: April 04, 2017, 01:02:38 PM »
I still believe--hope--that the new "reasonable judgment" standard in the proposed USGA rules would cause a different outcome in the future.  That's what Golf Digest thinks.  We'll see.


Jim,


That proposed revision cannot possibly include the act of replacing a ball on the putting green. It's clearly intending to address reasonable attempts (yet still wrong) to judge where a ball entered a hazard or where the nearest point of relief from GUR or an obstruction is. Those items are occasionally unprovable...marking and replacing a ball on the green is hardly a mystery.

Jim, the proposed revision would apply in this situation and this is directly from the USGA's recent statement on the incident...

"As part of their Rules Modernization initiative, the USGA and The R&A have been discussing the use of video evidence and have developed a proposed new standard to limit its use when a player is estimating or measuring a spot, point, line, area or distance. Proposed new Rule 1.3a(2) provides that ”so long as the player does all that can be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate estimation or measurement, the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if later shown to be wrong by other information (such as video technology).” When the proposed new Rules take effect in 2019, the committee would apply this new standard in determining whether there would be any penalty in this type of situation."

Proposed Rule: Under new Rule 1.3a(2), whenever required to estimate or measure a spot, point, line, area or distance, the player’s reasonable judgment would be accepted if:

The player did all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make a prompt and accurate estimation or measurement.

This means that the player’s reasonable judgment would be upheld even if later shown to be wrong by other information (such as video technology).

Reasons for Change:

The Rules generally rely on the integrity of the player, and this is a natural and appropriate extension of this trust in the player.

There are many times when the Rules require a player to estimate or measure a spot, point, line, area or distance, such as when the player:
•Uses a ball-marker to mark a ball’s spot, and then replace the ball, or
•Needs to find a reference point or reference line for taking relief (such as the nearest point of complete relief or the line from the hole through the spot of an unplayable ball), or to determine the extent of a relief area (such as measuring a fixed distance from a reference point or reference line).


 Such judgments need to be made promptly, and players often cannot be precise in doing so.

So long as the player did all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances:
•The player gets no penalty for any small inaccuracies, irrespective of any advantage gained.


 Accepting a player’s reasonable judgment would limit “second-guessing” that can arise from the use of enhanced technology (such as video review when golf is televised).

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #207 on: April 04, 2017, 01:43:27 PM »
Chris, are you suggesting that Lexi did "all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances"? Or are you saying the rules will not allow anyone to question the player with respect to things like this?


Jim Hoak - my apologies. I can't believe the USGA would write this revision this way.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #208 on: April 04, 2017, 01:53:55 PM »
9 pages and you'all (I think) missed the biggest point coming out of this Charlie Foxtrot (Cluster F@ck for all of those of you who couldn't figure that one out and were worrying about 1mm or 1 cm movement of a ball on a tap in):


The LPGA received more press and ink on this CF of the "rules" than the event itself....and the LPGA needs all the attention and press it can muster; be it good or bad.  The MOTM (Men of the Masters), given the same situation, would likely have convened a meeting and made a decision - MOTM do have president for doing these things if the rules get a bit sticky and if people don't like the rules they make, those folks don't have to play or broadcast their annual event.


What marketing genius and it didn't cost the LPGA a dime!!!! Except for poor Lexi who lost $155,000 and will likely make it up with sponsor requests after handling the situation so well.


The flip side to all of this great press coverage is that even more people (at least the American public who seems to be paying for most of this with advertising on US TV) will think golf even more stupid of a game and tune out more....growing interest in the game isn't achieved by having Rules mavens watching video reply on HDTV and calling in violations.


How many of us think we could have called a better 2nd half of last nights NCAA Final than those 3 blind mice calling ticky tack fouls and missing a guy clearly out of bounds in the last minute of the game; or you lads on the other side of the pond that always agree with the guy wearing the black shorts blowing whistle , who even if wrong, is always correct when Chelsea pays Arsenal, ManU plays City or Celtic plays Rangers.



Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #209 on: April 04, 2017, 02:10:23 PM »
Chris, are you suggesting that Lexi did "all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances"? Or are you saying the rules will not allow anyone to question the player with respect to things like this?


Jim Hoak - my apologies. I can't believe the USGA would write this revision this way.


Not at all.  I would say Lexi was sloppy and certainly did not place the ball back in the "right place" as I would judge it.  If a rules official saw this in real time, they would have correctly asked her to correct her mistake and replace the ball directly in front of her mark.  Once she putted from a wrong place, it was two strokes.


In this case, intent is not relevant and there would be no need to question Lexi.  In this specific case, her intent would have only mattered if this breach was brought to the committee after the competition had closed. 


(OK--a bit of a hedge here:  I guess an official could question a player's inent if they really feel they were trying to "cheat" so they could determine if there was a 33-7 issue so severe that it would warrant a DQ--but I can't imagine that happening at the professional level and certainly not based on what I saw).  Now if she moved her ball on the green 8 inches closer........


Once she signed her (wrong) card it used to be a DQ but now is two more additional strokes and she can keep playing.


Not to open a can of worms, but this ruling has absolutely nothing to do with the Tiger Woods situation other than both players failed to get their golf balls back on the course where the rules required them to.


In general, I would expect a person replacing a marked ball with their hand to do a much better job of getting it on the spot correctly versus a golfer trying to hit an exact spot after an estimation and then a drop from shoulder height. 

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #210 on: April 04, 2017, 02:14:23 PM »
Maybe to settle the sub-question of the impact the new USGA rules might have on this situation--the USGA is saying this morning that the reasonable judgment rule would have been relevant when enacted, but they do not intend to speed up their process.  They will take comments till Aug. 1, then take action late this year, early next, and be effective 1/1/19.
To repeat an earlier post--the USGA wants comments on the proposed new rules from a survey you can take on USGA.org until August 1.  I encourage everyone to go there.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #211 on: April 04, 2017, 02:14:49 PM »
Have you been watching the PGA Tour and the deliberate actions of players which Peter Kostis has made no secret of that he views it as cheating.  A player's ball is on the green and another player is playing a shot from off the green and the ball on the green could assist the player who is playing from off the green.  It seems that quite often the player whose ball is on the green does not mark and lift his ball before the shot is played from off the green, thereby possibly assisting his fellow competitor and not protecting the rest of the field.

Chris Roselle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #212 on: April 04, 2017, 02:17:49 PM »
Chris, are you suggesting that Lexi did "all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances"? Or are you saying the rules will not allow anyone to question the player with respect to things like this?


Jim Hoak - my apologies. I can't believe the USGA would write this revision this way.

I concur with Chris Cupit...

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #213 on: April 04, 2017, 02:23:28 PM »
Lexi was amazing.  Playing thatbweel with all that emotion is pretty impressive.


She did replace the ball horribly.
Don't like call in penalties at all, but that was carelessly off by a mile.


Crap finish, was hoping she'd get it done in the PO


Agree completely, it would be easy to argue that she was trying to gain some advantage by marking the ball on the side and replacing it in in front of the coin.

Mark Kiely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #214 on: April 04, 2017, 02:24:31 PM »
Quote

Anyone saying video shouldn't be allowed to make this type of ruling is essentially saying players should be able to get away with this type of infraction. A player's fellow competitors are concentrating on his/her own putts and can't be looking like hawks to ensure everyone is replacing his/her ball in the right spot. Neither can officials be expected to do so, especially if they are prohibited from "going to the video" to confirm what they think they saw.

       This way of thinking is so ass backwards.  Players these days and people in general have been conditioned not to self police things and rely on others.  It is fellow competitors job to pay attention to their fellow players in a tournament.  The modern pro is too self absorbed in their game then 30 years ago.  So no need for a walking official, the people have USGA rules books.  So players watching to make sure fellow players are playing by the rules is bad, but a police state of cameras all over is okay?  Big brother has everything under control.  Sheeple.  No one or few are saying to prohibit video if a rules official or player sees it right away.  They aren't 3rd parties and it isn't 24 hrs later.


It's not about being averse to self policing. What I'm saying is this: Think about how closely an official or a competitor would need to be standing near Lexi to have seen this happen and be confident that they saw an infraction. Think about how observant they would need to be to really notice exactly where the ball was replaced. If we prohibit outside video, people are going to get away with this, or rounds are going to take even longer than they do now due to making sure an official is watching every time a ball is marked or replaced.


I guess I just don't see what's wrong with enforcing the rules even if an infraction isn't caught by an official or a fellow competitor. Just because those select few people didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #215 on: April 04, 2017, 02:54:19 PM »
Quote

Anyone saying video shouldn't be allowed to make this type of ruling is essentially saying players should be able to get away with this type of infraction. A player's fellow competitors are concentrating on his/her own putts and can't be looking like hawks to ensure everyone is replacing his/her ball in the right spot. Neither can officials be expected to do so, especially if they are prohibited from "going to the video" to confirm what they think they saw.

       This way of thinking is so ass backwards.  Players these days and people in general have been conditioned not to self police things and rely on others.  It is fellow competitors job to pay attention to their fellow players in a tournament.  The modern pro is too self absorbed in their game then 30 years ago.  So no need for a walking official, the people have USGA rules books.  So players watching to make sure fellow players are playing by the rules is bad, but a police state of cameras all over is okay?  Big brother has everything under control.  Sheeple.  No one or few are saying to prohibit video if a rules official or player sees it right away.  They aren't 3rd parties and it isn't 24 hrs later.


It's not about being averse to self policing. What I'm saying is this: Think about how closely an official or a competitor would need to be standing near Lexi to have seen this happen and be confident that they saw an infraction. Think about how observant they would need to be to really notice exactly where the ball was replaced. If we prohibit outside video, people are going to get away with this, or rounds are going to take even longer than they do now due to making sure an official is watching every time a ball is marked or replaced.


I guess I just don't see what's wrong with enforcing the rules even if an infraction isn't caught by an official or a fellow competitor. Just because those select few people didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.


OR....
We could just continue with it being a game of honor.


Will someone occasionally get away with an inadvertant minor mismark or even an intentional one?
Yes.Somehow Jones, Hogan, Wright, Berg, Nicklaus could soldier on without an outside force arbitrarily calling in when it suits them.


I'm guessing you used to remind the teacher that she hadn't collected the homework.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #216 on: April 04, 2017, 03:04:46 PM »
Chris, are you suggesting that Lexi did "all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances"? Or are you saying the rules will not allow anyone to question the player with respect to things like this?


Jim Hoak - my apologies. I can't believe the USGA would write this revision this way.


Not at all.  I would say Lexi was sloppy and certainly did not place the ball back in the "right place" as I would judge it.  If a rules official saw this in real time, they would have correctly asked her to correct her mistake and replace the ball directly in front of her mark.  Once she putted from a wrong place, it was two strokes.





Chris',


How can you give her two strokes if she says she tried to / thought she did return the ball to the same spot?

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #217 on: April 04, 2017, 03:38:00 PM »
Chris, are you suggesting that Lexi did "all that could be reasonably expected under the circumstances"? Or are you saying the rules will not allow anyone to question the player with respect to things like this?


Jim Hoak - my apologies. I can't believe the USGA would write this revision this way.


Not at all.  I would say Lexi was sloppy and certainly did not place the ball back in the "right place" as I would judge it.  If a rules official saw this in real time, they would have correctly asked her to correct her mistake and replace the ball directly in front of her mark.  Once she putted from a wrong place, it was two strokes.





Chris',


How can you give her two strokes if she says she tried to / thought she did return the ball to the same spot?


She would get two strokes for playing from the wrong place if she in fact did not put the ball back correctly irrespective of her intentions.  She didn't "try hard enough"  ;)   An extreme example would be a player putting their ball on another player's ball mark that looked like theirs and was for some reason a few inches away.  In both cases, the player didn't put the ball back properly.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 03:40:21 PM by Chris Cupit »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #218 on: April 04, 2017, 03:43:50 PM »
I'm confused...if video isn't used, how is this determined?

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #219 on: April 04, 2017, 03:53:16 PM »
Jim, I don't agree.  There is some mystery in marking/placing.  It will never be literally exact.  Is off by .01 cm ok?  How about .02 cm?  You get the idea.
Remember that Tiger's drop at Augusta on #15 which needed to be as near as possible where he had played from was judged ok (at a foot-and-a-half) until he ran his mouth off at the press conference.
What does it mean to say that a player or caddie can't stand "on or near" the line of his player/partner.  What does "near" mean?  One foot?  Two feet?
I read the proposed USGA rule as allowing reasonable judgment in all these matters.  But as I said, we'll see.

The Tiger drop had less to do with his drop being off and more to do with his misunderstanding of which rule to apply. His "way-off" drop was a consequence of that misunderstanding. This error compounded itself when a rules official -- note to earlier comment in thread: an ANGC member -- made a unilateral decision that Tiger's drop was fine.

This appears different from the Thompson situation. Although in both cases the technology was a factor, in Tiger's case the issue had more to do with a technology broadcasting the coverage for all to see, rather than, as in Thompson's case (and DJ's at the USO), the technology being used to determine a small difference (raising the question of materiality).

The error in Tiger's drop was visible to the unaided eye.
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MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #220 on: April 04, 2017, 05:16:50 PM »
Phil Mickelson just stated bad marking is a problem on tour and players do it to avoid a bad spot on the green.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 05:19:16 PM by MClutterbuck »

Padraig Dooley

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #221 on: April 04, 2017, 05:22:01 PM »
A big long thread all because a pro golfer failed in the simple act of replacing a ball correctly. If she replaces correctly, no thread.

What would you have done in this situation?

This is what I would have done, on hearing the penalty I would have asked to see it before commenting, as soon as I saw it, I would have been extremely embarrassed, said what kind of idiot am I to make such a simple mistake, accept the penalty and say how lucky was I, that I wasn't disqualified.
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Mike Feeney

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #222 on: April 04, 2017, 06:08:05 PM »
Mr. Dooley, was the only poster to answer the question I posed (WWYD -- What Would You Do?)

And, in my humble opinion, he answered it wonderfully & honorably -- that is, as I would want my competitors to do.


Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #223 on: April 04, 2017, 06:24:51 PM »
Padraig


Exactly.It was incredibly careless - at best.
What is sad is So Yeon's win will always be questioned - when no one knows how the cards would have played out if there had been no penalty or a 2 shot penalty. (which would have been reasonable)
Who can anyone say for sure how Lexi would have managed the last few holes under a much different kind of pressure? Everyone had given The Masters to Jordan after 11 holes last year.
The player who really was thrown was Pettersen - and that's twice she had been unfairly affected by young Americans not knowing following proper procedure.


So Yeon didn't know the exact situation - the 4 shots - until she was on 18 and saw a leaderboard.
Her caddy (a friend of mine) first told her Lexi had a slow play warning - after a cameraman told them both on 15 of the penalty. She didn't understand what he meant and Tom told her it was a slow play warning - 'because I knew she would panic if she realised she was in the lead.'
Then when a tour official confirmed it on 16 Tom told her it wasn't certain and it was going to be reviewed.


That's knowing your player and great caddying.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 06:28:42 PM by Mike_Clayton »

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #224 on: April 04, 2017, 06:29:15 PM »
A big long thread all because a pro golfer failed in the simple act of replacing a ball correctly. If she replaces correctly, no thread.

What would you have done in this situation?

This is what I would have done, on hearing the penalty I would have asked to see it before commenting, as soon as I saw it, I would have been extremely embarrassed, said what kind of idiot am I to make such a simple mistake, accept the penalty and say how lucky was I, that I wasn't disqualified.


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