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V_Halyard

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #125 on: April 03, 2017, 01:44:44 PM »
Bad marks happen in golf and bad calls happen on TV but no other sport allows an armchair troll with an 80inch 4K monitor and a remote control to dial in a penalty post contest. Additionally, this is a sponsor driven revenue for play and broadcast business.  The funding supports the ability to have golf on TV, which I believe is a good thing. This process devalues the product, the players and is a professional disservice to the sponsor ANA who's investment and name association has been trashed by title, word association, click, post, share and graphic replay.

At some point there needs to be change as this is "Grow the game... with Roundup".
Chief Marketing Officers of companies sponsoring the LPGA should be on the phone with a warning... please tell me how this is going to be fixed and avoided during the tournament bearing my company's name.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 02:25:23 PM by V_Halyard »
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #126 on: April 03, 2017, 01:53:46 PM »

From David Fay:


Creative ball-marking and replacement, real or alleged, is extremely rare at the highest levels, but there've been a couple of high-profile players over the years who've been branded -- fairly or not -- as cheaters. Normally it takes a pattern of sloppy marking to be challenged, not an isolated incident. Dave Marr told me a story of playing with Jack Nicklaus and another player for the first two rounds of a tour event. Jack didn't appreciate the manner in which Player No. 3 was marking/replacing his ball on the greens. So after the first round, Jack told the player, "Tomorrow, each time you bend down to mark and replace your ball, you'll see a pair of white golf shoes: mine."

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #127 on: April 03, 2017, 01:56:48 PM »
I understand that at the Masters a member of the club who is on the committee can overrule an official so in this case he or she could tell the rules official not to assess the penalty.  (I was told this was done with Ernie Els a number of years ago.)
And you know what, in this particular case no one would ever be the wiser.

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #128 on: April 03, 2017, 02:07:55 PM »
I understand that at the Masters a member of the club who is on the committee can overrule an official so in this case he or she could tell the rules official not to assess the penalty.  (I was told this was done with Ernie Els a number of years ago.)
And you know what, in this particular case no one would ever be the wiser.


Absolutely agree.
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #129 on: April 03, 2017, 02:14:51 PM »
I understand that at the Masters a member of the club who is on the committee can overrule an official so in this case he or she could tell the rules official not to assess the penalty.  (I was told this was done with Ernie Els a number of years ago.)
And you know what, in this particular case no one would ever be the wiser.

Jerry ,
Will Nicholson was the member in charge of rules who over ruled Ed Hoard on hole #11 with Ernie Els.  It was regarding "piled for removal" and it was well into the left woods on the hole....was an interesting ruling..

looking at this in a different light....imagine if So Yeon Ryu decided to take a flip wedge off the first tee of the play off hole.  We would al know her name today instead of all this rules talk and she would be the hype on that tour for a while...she already had second place money..it was match play at this point and no affect on the rest of the field.. :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #130 on: April 03, 2017, 03:02:57 PM »
So, if no one had called, and The Golf Channel saw the infraction in the course of setting up their recap of the day, and then reported it, are they wrong to do so?
No different than a call in after the fact, and the result would be same. Four shots.


I don't like call ins, simply due to not having every player under same microscope.  However, she is a golf professional who clearly effed  up, intentional or not.


Seems these days if we don't like rules, we trash them and the people enforcing them, rather than following them and working towards equitably making changes

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #131 on: April 03, 2017, 03:32:26 PM »
Watch her feet in the video:  I think I detected a stutter-step.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #132 on: April 03, 2017, 04:02:51 PM »
It looked to me like at the very last second, she moved the ball back towards the coin after her initial placing. Perhaps she was cognizant of her initial clumsiness.


I'd say her action was more careless than malicious, but them's the breaks I guess.

American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Jonathan Mallard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #133 on: April 03, 2017, 04:36:08 PM »
Armando Gallaraga should have his perfect game in 2011 restored.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #134 on: April 03, 2017, 05:12:05 PM »
Quote from: Doug_Feeney link=topic=64332.msg1533441#msg1533441
I think the USGA would be well served to separate a significant breach (kicking the ball out from behind a tree or even dropping in an advantageous location) from a non-significant breach (this) when deciding whether to change the score of a previous round.  Of course this introduces a level of personal judgement that they try to avoid. 


I am not sure moving a ball around a spike mark is any less significant than moving a ball around a tree.


Traditionally golf is a game of honesty that requires players to police themselves in following the rules.


If golfers like Lexi Thompson are caught out cheating, it shouldnt matter when they are caught.  Disqualification and one year ban.


I understand however that the American cultural view of rules is contrary to the scottish traditions of the game, which is reflected in the outcomes and commentary.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #135 on: April 03, 2017, 05:26:36 PM »
A viewer calls/writes on Sunday regarding an infraction on Thursday, which would have caused a player (now playing in the fourth round) to miss the cut.

Now what?

WW

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #136 on: April 03, 2017, 05:27:49 PM »
I just looked at the video on Shack's website.  For me, too hard to tell what really went down.  I do know that "irrefutable" video evidence can be deceiving.  As to all the other issues, I can't add anything to the thoughtful (and some not so thoughtful) comments already posted.

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #137 on: April 03, 2017, 05:36:50 PM »
To all of the comments that seem to imply that some want to ignore that what she did is a rules violation, that is not at all what the issue is about in this case.

If another player had seen her bad replacement and told her to correct it, almost all agree that would have been a correct call.

If the LPGA Rules Official happened to see the bad replacement, while Lexi's 3rd round was in process, informed her of the infraction and of her requirement to add a 2 stroke penalty, almost all agree that too would have been a correct call.

This controversy is about two things ONLY:
1. TV viewers, and other spectators (not part of the tournament in some capacity), getting involved in Rules issues.
2. A penalty being called after the round is fully completed for ALL participants, and the next round is now in progress.

The problem with #1, is that outsiders have no responsibility for fairness to the field.  All of the competitors, and the Rules and Tournament officials, all have obligations to be equally fair to each and every participant in the tournament.  Allowing outsiders to dictate what rules infractions our brought to attention (and possibly which ones are ignored by that outsider), can create inequalities among players.  Therefore, this practice MUST be highly discouraged, and not accepted as much as possible.

There could be exceptions.  First outright deliberate & purposeful cheating deserves to be identified by anyone.  Second, it can be helpful for players and rules officials to obtain facts from some spectators (i.e. where was the ball originally on the green, before another ball struck it and moved).

But, please stop acting like some are trying to ignore the rules just because a possible minor infraction resulted in a severe penalty.
Most will agree, the bad replacement result should be a penalty.  (She is a professional; she knows replacing a ball on the green is critical to be done with absolute precision, and she knows rule infractions can be harsh, but that is part of the game.)

The debate is all about outside referees (lacking ethical responsibilities of fairness to the field), and penalties assessed after ALL play is completed.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 05:40:06 PM by Bill Shamleffer »
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #138 on: April 03, 2017, 05:36:54 PM »
George Pazin said "That marking was THE WORST I've ever seen"   Yes, if you have seen every ball that has been marked in every tournament in super zoomed in mode.....I am going to study some old video of Jack, and zoom in real tight...any infractions will be noted to the USGA....we'll see how well his 18 majors hold up.

Silly isn't it? And so is the USGA and R&A letting people at home ref a golf tournament.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #139 on: April 03, 2017, 05:54:20 PM »
Would it change anyone's mind of the caller/e-mailer were a fan/family of Suzanne Petersen, InBee Park or the girl that won?

What's to stop fan/family from pouring over video in an attempt to find something that could potentially change the outcome in favor of their preferred player?

Regardless how bad the repositioning of the ball was this is becoming a bit ridiculous. 


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #140 on: April 03, 2017, 05:56:25 PM »
Well at least she has 24 more "Majors" this year to get it back.

David Wuthrich

Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #141 on: April 03, 2017, 06:09:55 PM »
One word:  Travesty

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #142 on: April 03, 2017, 06:10:21 PM »
The truth is Comrade Trumpsky and his Communist cohorts sent that email to make sure another American woman doesn't win a big event.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #143 on: April 03, 2017, 06:17:12 PM »
To all of the comments that seem to imply that some want to ignore that what she did is a rules violation, that is not at all what the issue is about in this case.

If another player had seen her bad replacement and told her to correct it, almost all agree that would have been a correct call.

If the LPGA Rules Official happened to see the bad replacement, while Lexi's 3rd round was in process, informed her of the infraction and of her requirement to add a 2 stroke penalty, almost all agree that too would have been a correct call.

This controversy is about two things ONLY:
1. TV viewers, and other spectators (not part of the tournament in some capacity), getting involved in Rules issues.
2. A penalty being called after the round is fully completed for ALL participants, and the next round is now in progress.

The problem with #1, is that outsiders have no responsibility for fairness to the field.  All of the competitors, and the Rules and Tournament officials, all have obligations to be equally fair to each and every participant in the tournament.  Allowing outsiders to dictate what rules infractions our brought to attention (and possibly which ones are ignored by that outsider), can create inequalities among players.  Therefore, this practice MUST be highly discouraged, and not accepted as much as possible.

There could be exceptions.  First outright deliberate & purposeful cheating deserves to be identified by anyone.  Second, it can be helpful for players and rules officials to obtain facts from some spectators (i.e. where was the ball originally on the green, before another ball struck it and moved).

But, please stop acting like some are trying to ignore the rules just because a possible minor infraction resulted in a severe penalty.
Most will agree, the bad replacement result should be a penalty.  (She is a professional; she knows replacing a ball on the green is critical to be done with absolute precision, and she knows rule infractions can be harsh, but that is part of the game.)

The debate is all about outside referees (lacking ethical responsibilities of fairness to the field), and penalties assessed after ALL play is completed.


Bill--All play is completed after the competition is closed--not after a single round of that competition happens to be over. 

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #144 on: April 03, 2017, 06:18:33 PM »
I am hesitant to weigh in, but what the heck, it’s pouring here at my course.
1.  Mike Young is 1000% correct--The LPGA and the Committee in charge of this particular championship can play by whatever set of rules they wish.  They can also choose to enforce or not enforce whatever rule or rules they wish.  It would be chaos but they can do it. 

The PGA and LPGA don’t play by every rule anyway.  For example, the rules of golf allow you to hit practice putts after finishing a hole—the PGA and LPGA prohibit this.  The rules allow you to tee off each hole with a different brand of ball which the PGA and LPGA prohibit.  The rules prohibit “undue delay” and by most anyone’s standards, that is never called—kinda like traveling in basketball I guess.  Hell, a whole new kind of obstruction—temporary immovable obstructions were invented to give “line of play” relief. 

2.  I am not sure what some of you would have expected once this Committee of the LPGA decided to play a championship by the Rules of the USGA and R & A.  Are people really suggesting you change the rules during the competition?  How fair would that be?  Again, to be clear—the LPGA Committee could have absolutely ignored the evidence.  What could the USGA/R & A “do” about it—nothing.  If asked their opinion on the matter they will give it—that’s it.

3.  For those who want a “time limit” in this case, there is one—when the competition is over.  If this breach was discovered after they gave Lexi the trophy, no penalty could be applied unless Lexi admitted that she knew she was in breach of a rule and simply said “so what”—she would literally have to admit to cheating and then, yes, the committee should go grab the trophy from her.  I say “should” because as I pointed out earlier, the committee can do whatever the hell it wants to.

4.  The reason for the four stroke penalty was to keep from having to DQ a player.  This was a rules change to be “fairer”.   

5.  Does anyone here think Lexi would have preferred to win and THEN have this obvious breach pointed out?  She comes out far better in the long run and the good thing is everyone did what they were “supposed” to do.

6.  If your problem is with the rules, don’t play by them.  Oh wait, 99.99% of you don’t anyway.   ;) 

7.  If you think the rule allowing/requiring the Committee to act on all information presented to them (TV call ins too) is bad, what is the solution?  What if the video shows a player clearly and obviously cheating?  What about situations where the video evidence can exonerate a player?  Should video evidence be used if it can overturn a penalty given in error even if it is the next day?

8.  Those that think it’s not “fair” that TV groups get more scrutiny what is that solution?  To be fair should large galleries not be able to search for golf balls?  How many lost balls did Jack Nicklaus or Tiger Woods have in their careers?  Was it fair that large galleries sometimes helped deflect their balls back into play?  Is it fair that a fat golfer can draw casual water easier than a skinny golfer?

9.  Just because there is an official in every group does not mean breaches of this sort are going to be caught.  Do any of you know how close an official would have to be to see infractions like that?  The players already hate the officials anyway and want us as far away from their sight-lines as possible.  We are there to assist when they have questions and help prevent penalties.  We are not there to “hover” and/or look for penalties. 

10.  No doubt the biggest area where players breach the rules is on the greens—when their balls end up in a slight depression or behind a spike mark they will often only need to slide the ball ½ and inch or so to get away from the problem.  That is what I would describe as “cheating”—a player intentionally trying to gain an advantage whereas a breach can be by accident. 

I am not saying that is what happened in the Lexi situation at all as I can’t know what is in her heart or mind.  But since we can’t know that and should not try and guess it, we have to go on a player’s actions and here the ball was not put back in the same place.  She clearly breached the rule. 

For those who say it was insignificant, on a one-foot putt, an inch one way or another is significant.  If you don’t think so you have not played high level golf or been around world class players.  They expect perfect, billiard top like conditions and hate it—hate it, if anything like a scuff, depression or spike mark is in their way.  They feel ENTITLED to perfect conditions to putt on.  Again, I am not speaking to Lexi’s intent just saying that accidental or not, on smooth, fast greens, moving a ball away from an imperfection will affect the roll.

11.  All you guys saying this hurts “grow the game”—UGH.  Really?  That is just a dumb statement.  No one picks up or quits golf based on how they feel about the rules.  Again, 99% of all players and all rounds are not played by the rules to begin with.  Most groups like having some beers, being outside and as long as those in their group agree to whatever way to play among themselves, they are fine.

If you think incidents like this “hurt” the game I disagree.  I think it actually helps show the difference between Golf and other games where cheating is encouraged and even practiced.  Being responsible for your actions and mistakes no matter when or if they are ever caught is a lesson I wish all of us would live by. 

The notion that a sponsor should be ashamed that the sport they associate with holds its players to higher standards than others is silly.  In fact, if I learned a sponsor demanded a ruling body ignore its own rules to get the winner they wanted, I’d avoid that company like the plague.

12.  All golfers are not Bob Jones, in fact, few are or ever were.  With tens of millions of dollars at stake we need to recognize that more and more golfers will cheat.  Our game does not lend itself to referees like other sports in which cheating is an embedded part of the culture of the game.  Football, Baseball, Soccer, Basketball….those sports have a “code” and getting away with as much as you can is how to play those games.  There, referees have a job to “catch” players and if they don’t and the player gains an advantage for the team or themselves, all the better. 

13.  Golf has traditionally expected players to call penalties on themselves.  That mostly worked though the “good old days” were not always so good and probably more players got away with more cheating back then than now (thanks to TV).  Today there is the pressure of millions of dollars on the line and a new ethos whereby players feel entitled to conditions that are close to perfect so they can perform/entertain.  Because of that, subtle things that are breaches of the rules are accepted now more than ever and when a player is in clear but minor violation of a rule the entertainment sports industry rushes to their defense.

14.  This is heresy for a rules nerd but I live “normal” golf every day and spend time on championship golf far less often.  We should bifurcate the rules and bifurcate equipment.  We play nowhere near the same game as the professional and the rules should reflect that fact.  Professional golf is entertainment.

15.  The Committee yesterday acted correctly based on the rules they announced to the players they were going to play by at the start of the event.  They could have said, “to hell with the rules” but I guarantee you, that would have resulted in a legitimate lawsuit.  You can’t tell people these are the rules and later say that you changed your mind about “all” the rules, especially with millions of dollars at stake. 

16.  The rules specifically say that when trying to figure out what happened, testimony of those not involved with the competition (spectators and/or television footage) should be used in order to determine what, in fact, did occur.  The rules also require referees to act upon violations reported to them.

17.  Ignore the rules, change the rules or modify the rules to play whatever game you wish.  Just tell me ahead of time so I know what game we are all supposed to play.  If your answer is that we aren’t sure but will do what’s “fair”, I’ll pass. 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 06:21:30 PM by Chris Cupit »

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #145 on: April 03, 2017, 06:19:35 PM »

Seems these days if we don't like rules, we trash them and the people enforcing them, rather than following them and working towards equitably making changes


I spent all that time writing a bunch of crap where Pat summed it up perfectly in a single sentence.  :)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #146 on: April 03, 2017, 06:22:35 PM »
Maybe all the guys that would have given themselves that putt, and ran to the next tee bitching about slow play, can stop being such drama queens.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #147 on: April 03, 2017, 06:23:02 PM »
The debate is all about outside referees (lacking ethical responsibilities of fairness to the field), and penalties assessed after ALL play is completed.


The burden of proof on intent is also up for debate.  It is apparent that international media and posters on here are wanting to place a much lower threshold for outing her as a deliberate cheater than American posters, media and rules officials.  Which i think is a fair enough hometown bias but relevant to how the penalty should be assessed.


And intent definitely ties in to how penalties are assessed. 


Traditionally if a golfer was caught cheating like this they would be shown the footage and look in to their heart, listen to their concience and disqualify themselves.  This could happen any time before the competitor dies. 


What is fundamentally untenable is the recent Americanised approach to golf where penalties are called on a player by others instead of by themselves.  It as created this unattractive situation where some golfers cheat a lot without being caught and then get caught when under increased scrutiny.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 06:30:19 PM by David_Elvins »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #148 on: April 03, 2017, 06:29:03 PM »
George Pazin said "That marking was THE WORST I've ever seen"   Yes, if you have seen every ball that has been marked in every tournament in super zoomed in mode.....I am going to study some old video of Jack, and zoom in real tight...any infractions will be noted to the USGA....we'll see how well his 18 majors hold up.

Silly isn't it? And so is the USGA and R&A letting people at home ref a golf tournament.


This is a complete misunderstanding of the rules.  After the trophy has been handed out, you can't penalize the player unless the player had knowledge that they broke a rule and never said anything--in other words they were cheating and knew it.


If you could prove Jack Nicklaus KNEW he was cheating and accepted the trophy anyway, hell yes, go grab back some majors! 

Doug_Feeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #149 on: April 03, 2017, 06:48:32 PM »
Quote from: Doug_Feeney link=topic=64332.msg1533441#msg1533441
I think the USGA would be well served to separate a significant breach (kicking the ball out from behind a tree or even dropping in an advantageous location) from a non-significant breach (this) when deciding whether to change the score of a previous round.  Of course this introduces a level of personal judgement that they try to avoid. 


I am not sure moving a ball around a spike mark is any less significant than moving a ball around a tree.



I fully agree that avoiding a spike mark would be significant.  I just don't see one here.  Doesn't look like Lexi gained any real advantage in this situation - psychological maybe but now we are guessing. 


« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 07:38:28 PM by Doug_Feeney »

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