[Padraig Dooley]

Golf is different to nearly every other sport in that when a play is finished the next play is completely independent of the previous one. Whether the hole is played badly or well, what score is taken, the next hole is a fresh start, adding penalties after the event doesn't mean the hole would have been played from a different different distance or angle.

Other sports adding a penalty after the event would mean subsequent plays would have to be replayed, this is not required in golf. Why not have a sport where the idea is not to gain an advantage by cheating the referee? This is accepted in many sports. Ignoring video evidence is to say you can get away with breaching a rule if no one sees it. I don't like that idea. Do you?

[John Kavanaugh]

Other sports do not change the outcome of the game but they do penalize players either monetarily or with suspensions. A suspension may have been a more severe penalty.


Either way this is one more instance that it makes it difficult for amateurs to play by the rules. It's just not reasonable to replace your ball in the exact spot it comes to rest on 99% of the greens we play.


Look for someone to get injured or killed in a junior tournament very soon. We can't play best camera wins.

[John Connolly]

I think she got exposed and that's what probably bothers her the most. Chances were pretty high she would have made the putt had she just banged it when she first lined it up. Such silliness to re-mark it (and move it) so as to avoid whatever defect she saw - or thought she saw.

[Doug_Feeney]

Other sports do not change the outcome of the game but they do penalize players either monetarily or with suspensions. A suspension may have been a more severe penalty.


Either way this is one more instance that it makes it difficult for amateurs to play by the rules. It's just not reasonable to replace your ball in the exact spot it comes to rest on 99% of the greens we play.


Look for someone to get injured or killed in a junior tournament very soon. We can't play best camera wins.

I think the USGA would be well served to separate a significant breach (kicking the ball out from behind a tree or even dropping in an advantageous location) from a non-significant breach (this) when deciding whether to change the score of a previous round.  Of course this introduces a level of personal judgement that they try to avoid. 


And while I cannot know her intention, it is really hard for me to believe she was not aware of what she did at the time.  I've played hundreds of competitive rounds and replaced thousands of balls on greens of varying condition...what she did was extremely unusual.

[BCowan]

Golf is different to nearly every other sport in that when a play is finished the next play is completely independent of the previous one. Whether the hole is played badly or well, what score is taken, the next hole is a fresh start, adding penalties after the event doesn't mean the hole would have been played from a different different distance or angle.

Other sports adding a penalty after the event would mean subsequent plays would have to be replayed, this is not required in golf. Why not have a sport where the idea is not to gain an advantage by cheating the referee? This is accepted in many sports. Ignoring video evidence is to say you can get away with breaching a rule if no one sees it. I don't like that idea. Do you?

Players in their group need to police their group.  I remember in Hartford back in the day Greg Norman refused to sign Mark McCumber's Scorecard for a rules violation he saw.  Those were the good ole days when we had real competitors.  Now all the participates are so wrapped up in their routines they forgot the ethos of the game. 

[corey miller]

I work for one of the major sports leagues in an officiating capacity.  The league uses replay which I abhor for any situation.  I do wonder though (and perhaps it is societal) about the need to be "perfect" or "right"? 

Why in the major team sports with replay are we always told it is most important to "get the call right" regardless of consequences?  Isn't this just the logical extension of that?

The other thing we have learned from replay in sports are all the unintended consequences.  What would the LPGA do if they got a few thousand emailed in rules infractions after every round?  Spend all night reviewing tape? 

[George Pazin]

I can't say I feel sorry for Lexi, other than in a general sense of being sorry that she was so careless (and that's being charitable).


That marking was THE WORST I've ever seen (though admittedly, I don't gamble on the course, so I'm sure people will say they've seen worse). Calling that like a 16 handicapper is ridiculous. I've never seen an absolute beginner mark a ball so poorly. My son took a series of beginner lessons last summer that included competitions. If I had seen a kid mark like that, I would politely explain to him what he did wrong. It almost looked like she was doing it intentionally. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she was just being careless, but not calling that out would be making an absolute mockery of everyone who has diligently marked his or her ball throughout the history of golf.


I don't like the idea of call ins, or emails, but this problem is 100% of her own making, as are most of these situations. This wasn't something that required a microscopic analysis like DJ's last year or Paddy Harrington's a few years ago. Her caddy should have caught it, her playing partner should have caught it, the rules official should have caught it, the announcers should have caught it - all live, when it happened. I don't like a call-in affecting play either, but the fault lies entirely with her. But I like even less just shrugging my shoulders and saying, whatever, who cares, it didn't matter.


The competition was still open. I'd say a decent analogy would be video evidence showing a guy on the Tour de France shortcutting a hairpin turn when nobody was looking, and somebody catching it later. It should have been caught live, but I'm not at all ok with letting it stand because it was missed at the time.


So I guess I'm one of the few on here who stands with Padraig!

[JESII]

Ben Cowan,


I'm far from a wordsmith but could you please spell the word "participants" correctly if you're going to keep using it. When you say "participates" I have to go back and see who is participating...and in what...

[Niall C]

I didn’t see the incident but let me make a couple of general points;
 
The motivation of the person phoning in isn’t the issue here but rather the intention or motivation of the player. Did the player deliberately place the ball down somewhere other than where it had been ? If so you would have to say the player was cheating which should incur more than just a 2 shot penalty. If the player has simply been careless and clearly replaced the ball in the wrong position then a 2 shot penalty is appropriate. This is after all a sport that prides itself on the integrity of the participants.
 
The second point I’d make is that with short putts, in some instances moving a ball a little to the side could make a big difference, at least psychologically, in making the putt appear easier especially where the green has been ruffed up a bit. The distance isn’t the issue.
 
Niall


edit - wish I'd seen George's post above. That would have saved me some typing

[Josh Bills]

I don't see how this works unless there are cameras on every golfer all the time, or else only those in the lead are exposed.  You can't apply the video rule uniformly because the broadcast is incapable of showing all the shots.  At least with hockey, soccer, basketball you are only dealing with one object in play.  Golf makes it almost impossible to capture all the players all the time.  So we are back to relying on the players to police themselves or if you really dislike someone, follow them around and record everything, turning them in with your cell phone if you see something. Just what we need.  Wait until someone alters a video of an opponent to help their player.  It's not that hard to imagine.  Unless someone has a solution to recording every golfer, Lexi says she didn't mean to do it, and even if she did it, I think we have to rely on her or anyone else as to their intent as no one has shown she gained an advantage. Her competitor and the officials are there to protect the field, not an outside agency.  I think this will spur changes, or at least hope it does, because what happened yesterday was no good for the game in my opinion.   


 

[jeffwarne]

I don't see how this works unless there are cameras on every golfer all the time, or else only those in the lead are exposed.  You can't apply the video rule uniformly because the broadcast is incapable of showing all the shots.  At least with hockey, soccer, basketball you are only dealing with one object in play.  Golf makes it almost impossible to capture all the players all the time.  So we are back to relying on the players to police themselves or if you really dislike someone, follow them around and record everything, turning them in with your cell phone if you see something. Just what we need.  Wait until someone alters a video of an opponent to help their player.  It's not that hard to imagine.  Unless someone has a solution to recording every golfer, Lexi says she didn't mean to do it, and even if she did it, I think we have to rely on her or anyone else as to their intent as no one has shown she gained an advantage. Her competitor and the officials are there to protect the field, not an outside agency.  I think this will spur changes, or at least hope it does, because what happened yesterday was no good for the game in my opinion.   


 

+1
Those who think she cheated should be outraged she was not disqualified and barred from further events.


I go the other way-she was so focused on the stupid cheater line lining up with the hole, she inadvertantly didn't put the ball back properlyin relation to her manhole cover of a marker.
It wasn't spotted by those who matter--HER, her fellow competitors, and the WALKING OFFICIAL.
Case closed.No penalty, play on.

[Sean_A]

Taking all this back to what should be absolute prime objectives of any rules; they should be consistent and applied equally.  Either video replay is for all or none.  Not being a fan of video replay period unless there is an element of a challenge involved which can be costly if you are mistaken, I would obviously say no video replay at any time.  Allow players and officials to police the matches.  If it ever becomes the case where video policing can be administered consistently and equally in golf, maybe I would rethink my position.


IMO, this is more petty crap which drags the game through the mud.  Even if the 2 shot penalty is administered, how in the hell can a player be docked 2 more shots for signing an incorrect score that nobody in the group knew about?  Absolutely stupid that is. At some point a line has to be drawn under a round.  If that point is a moving target then what is the point of a signature?


Ciao

[Jerry Kluger]

I heard a very convincing point so far as I am concerned:


So someone outside of the event can determine its outcome.  That person can decide not to call and there is no penalty.  They can call before the end of the round and it is a two stroke penalty. Or they can wait until after the scorecard is signed and there is a four stroke penalty.  That is absurd but true. 


BTW: In the Nordquist situation I commented to the person I was watching with at the time that from behind it appeared that she had grounded her club on her backswing.  The TV coverage after the violation was being discussed only showed it from the side which made it appear less significant.

[SL_Solow]

A few points.  First, to my knowledge, the USGA was not involved in making this decision.  The LPGA staff made the call,  The USGA did promulgate the rule.  The additional 2 stroke penalty was a substitution for the prior rule which would have required disqualification. Unless one adopts the rule proposed by several here, that once a scorecard is signed all violations are forgiven, this penalty is more lenient.  The question is, should we forgive penalties while the tournament is ongoing?  Since unlike other sports, golfers are supposed to call their own penalties and gamesmanship (e.g. flopping, phantom tags and the like) are not tolerated, there is no good reason to forgive penalties during a competition.  However, at some point the tournament must end, hence the rule that once all cards are signed and the result is announced, the results are final.  Not entirely consistent but a result of necessity.

What to do about call - ins is a different problem.  Putting aside the easy case (the unseen kicked or dropped ball) I tend to agree that we should exclude the officious intermeddler who uses replay to inject himself into the action.  There are too many variables.  But I understand the desire to get things right; I am just not certain that we really do so.   The clear variation in enforcement between those on camera and those who are not leads me to believe that we would be better off ignoring  the calls in all but the most extreme cases.  I suppose it is like the R&A ignoring Locke's mistake in equity.

Finally, I continue to be amused by those who think that changing the rules will have a significant impact on pace of play or participation by the retail golfer.  Since observance and/or knowledge of the rules is rare , nothing suggests that changes will make a difference.  I favor many of the proposed changes as improvements for those of us who play by the rules and for tournaments.  But I do not expect rules changes to impact on the larger economic issues facing the game.

[David_Tepper]

For those who have not seen a video of the incident, you can view it here:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2017/4/3/poll-and-quick-wrap-lexis-infraction-at-the-ana.html

[Jim Hoak]

I think this has been covered but let me make two points--
This is not the USGA!!!  Stop blaming them for everything.  The LPGA made the ruling.
The new USGA rules will hopefully stop all this stupidity.  It will require reliance on the reasonable judgment of the player.  Unless there is a clear lack of judgment--or intentional cheating--it will not be a penalty.
On a related mater--everyone with any interest in the rules--and that means all on this site--should go onto USGA.org and fill out the survey on the new, proposed rules.  It only takes 3-5 minutes.  The USGA is interested in golfers' opinions before August 1 of this year--and the rules will be enacted later this year.  Worth the effort.

[Marc Haring]

Here it is in glorious close up and slo-mo. Have to say it looks a trifle suspect to me, I mean the ball doesn't even get more than three inches in the air but it goes down to the side and closer!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee8vQ2DSkY4

[JESII]

Can someone explain to me how the proposed rule changes will eliminate this from being a violation?

[Matthew Essig]

They need to take Mike Davis out and see how close he remarks his ball in a short skirt.

Okay, that made me laugh a bit.

[SL_Solow]

Jim;  It won't

[MClutterbuck]

I agree that after the scorecards are signed the score should be final- having emails or phone calls change the outcome is BS.


I don't know if she was consciously cheating but how can you excuse a mark like that when she obviously misplaces the ball after only a second and after only lifting the ball an inch or so. Very strange.  It sure looks like the intent of her "marking" was to move the ball.

+1

[Jim Hoak]

Jim and SL--I think it will change things.  The action taken by the player will stand unless it can clearly be shown it was unreasonable or illegal.  It's like the burden of proof in court.  It shifts the weight to the side of the player.
Don't be cynical.  Maybe you're right; I hope not.

[Thomas Dai]

Lawyers and courtrooms and judges and arbitration panals get involved in rulings in some sports, such as motor racing, surprisingly often. How long before they get involved in golf rulings or the after effects of such rulings? Perhaps not an edifying thought, but..........
Atb

[Bob Montle]

The way I see it, is that she placed her marker improperly off towards the side of the ball.  When she replaced the ball she correctly positioned it in the direct line from coin to cup.   I think she just got sloppy placing the marker.

Okay, the ball was moved about 1/4"
I do not have a problem with her being penalized there.

However, since NO PENALTY was assessed by her, her competitors, the officials or the LPGA at the time she signed her card, I believe a penalty for signing incorrectly is ridiculous.

[MClutterbuck]

1. I agree we need to end call-ins. It is unfair to those on camera all the time.
2. The major tours should have at least one official with every group and they and other officials walking the course should be sole recourse.
3. Co competitors should enforce violations and if they dont they should receive some kind of warning or penalty after.
4. There is nothing worse than accusing somebody of cheating without proof, and there is no proof here and it seems like an isolated entity. We should all take her word for what happened. Lexie must feel horrible enough and it seems she handled herself very well after.
5. Having said this, the violation is gross and looks even worse because she came out of her stance to re mark her ball. It has the appearance of improving her lie to avoid a spike mark. I am not saying this is what happened. Does somebody know if this was the second or first time she marked her ball in that spot?
6. The violation is so gross that we kicked out a player from our club recently due to repeated instances of the same violation.
7. She would have been disqualified a few years ago.
8. The USGA is not responsible for the decision, but should improve the rules.
9. Infractions caught on video after the fact should be dealt with through warnings, suspensions, monetary penalties.
10. The new rules might well help in similar situations, but to me this violation was too clear for the proposed new rules to get her off.

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