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James Bennett

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2017, 08:33:03 AM »
I'm with Kyle re RM West - #1 is the least best hole.

I still want to play it, and try to deal with the illusion of distance.
That green is always 25 metres further away than your eye will tell you on the second shot.

The quality of the least best hole says a lot about the overall quality of RM West.

James B

Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Jim Hoak

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2017, 11:47:10 AM »
This reminds me of a 19th Hole game I thought was fun.  After playing a great course with a bunch of friends, take a scorecard for everyone.  Have everyone write beside every hole a 1 through 18 for the best hole through the worst hole on the course, a  number for each hole.  When you compare the results, the better the course the more variation in results you will see--which leads to a great discussion and good arguments.

Anthony Fowler

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2017, 12:39:32 PM »
I haven't played #18 at Cypress, but Paul might have given us the most compelling answer. Among the 8 courses on Tom's list that I've played, there's a clear winner, and it's not even close.


#11 at Merion!


This may be a controversial claim, but hear me out. For me, the hole requires something like a 4 iron off the tee and then perhaps a gap wedge to the green. The smallish green is effectively an island--if you miss in any direction or if don't have enough spin on your approach, you're completely screwed. The bunker is probably the best place to miss, and even then, you could make a big number. But you are hitting a wedge into the green, so maybe that's not so bad. Except the rough is so thick that if you miss the fairway, you have no hope and are probably better off chipping out. That's an odd feeling--being say 115 yards away from the hole with no obscured view but nonetheless chipping sideways, haha. Okay, you say, but you're hitting a 4 iron off the tee, so you should be able to hit the fairway. But the fairway is blind from the tee and tiny, and if you haven't played the course in a year or more, there's a good chance they've moved the fairway since you saw it last!


Even if this hole weren't so silly, contrived, and devoid of strategy, it doesn't really fit with the rest of the course aesthetically. The rock wall and the water works just don't really fit with the rest of the course. If we were at Butler or Medinah, sure, but Merion?


And I can't believe that 5 other holes from Merion have been mentioned on this thread but not 11. 2, 4, 7, 12, and 18 are all really good holes (although I see the aesthetic point about the chain link fence on 7), and one might argue that 4, 12, and 18 are great holes. Overall, Merion is a fantastic course with such a unique look and feel, which is one of the reasons that 11 is so disappointing.


The real reason, I suspect, that nobody has mentioned 11 is its historical significance. Sure, Bobby Jones clinched the grand slam on that hole. That's pretty cool. So put up the plaque and call it what it is--the worst hole on an otherwise magnificent course! I wish I could have seen the pre-1930 version of the hole when they teed off from across the road and the green was short of the creek. Maybe that was a neat hole. At the very least, it probably wasn't so contrived and it probably fit in better with the rest of the course.


Of course, I'm probably exaggerating for the sake of a fun argument. We are talking about the best courses in the world, and the 10s are, by definition, not supposed to have a weak hole. "Nearly perfect; if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something worth seeing." So who wants to take me on and argue that 11 is not, in fact, a weak hole?

Terry Lavin

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2017, 01:35:25 PM »
18 on Cypress is a bit of an atrocity. If it were in the middle of the course and a necessary connector hole I suppose it could be forgiven.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tom_Doak

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2017, 02:24:35 PM »
So who wants to take me on and argue that 11 is not, in fact, a weak hole?


In its present form, your description of the hole is on the mark.


In 1930, that blind fairway was 60 yards wide ... you really shouldn't ever have missed it, but where you drove it mattered, depending on what angle you wanted to have along / over the creek to its tiny green.


So I would say that there's nothing, architecturally, wrong with it ... they just mow it wrong because they have some modern standard for width in their heads.


As for #18, what's so great about a long par-4 where hardly anyone can sort out a way to keep a second shot on the green?

Blake Conant

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2017, 02:40:42 PM »
I would say in defense of 17 at Sand Hills, it's a good match play hole, and isn't an all or nothing miss like John says, there's a hierarchy of where you should miss and a good player would certainly take into consideration where to miss given the pin position.  It also connects two of the best holes on the property, and does so in a simple and elegant way.


9 is probably the weakest hole out there.  I get that you have to get back to Ben's Porch, and it does a decent job of that, but the strategy is awkward.  I haven't played that hole too many times with the wind in my face, and I think into the wind makes the carry off the tee more strategic, which opens up more options into the green. 

Anthony Fowler

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2017, 04:04:30 PM »
In its present form, your description of the hole [Merion #11] is on the mark.


In 1930, that blind fairway was 60 yards wide ... you really shouldn't ever have missed it, but where you drove it mattered, depending on what angle you wanted to have along / over the creek to its tiny green.


So I would say that there's nothing, architecturally, wrong with it ... they just mow it wrong because they have some modern standard for width in their heads.
That's a fair point Tom. In 1930, the fairway was wider, the rough was probably lighter, and it was probably easier to hold the fairway and green. And you can see the hole location from the tee box, so with a wider fairway, the hole offers interesting, strategic choices.


As for #18 [at Merion], what's so great about a long par-4 where hardly anyone can sort out a way to keep a second shot on the green?
That's a good point as well. It's certainly a difficult hole. I suppose I could offer the same kind of defense. In 1930, the hole was less than 500 yards, the fairway was probably wider, and the green was probably more receptive (even if the greens were firm, they were slower). In 1950, Ben Hogan held a 1 iron on the green, which would be nearly impossible today (although we're talking about a loftier 1 iron, a spinnier balata golf ball, and slower greens).


Even in its current form, however, I still think it's a very good hole. If you're not Jason Day, Dusin Johnson, etc. you have to either tee it forward or figure out how to bounce the ball into the green to have any hope of holding it. You may want to play a low runner that lands short of the false front. And unlike #11, if you fail, you're not going to lose your ball and you'll have a fun recovery shot.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2017, 05:14:37 PM »

I've not played it. Is there repair that could be done to the atrocity, like trimming back trees or something of that ilk?


RM



18 on Cypress is a bit of an atrocity. If it were in the middle of the course and a necessary connector hole I suppose it could be forgiven.
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~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2017, 05:39:02 PM »

Pacific Dunes: 8



You're due another rebuttal here.  If that's the least compelling hole at Pacific Dunes, then it's right up there with Pine Valley for not having any bad holes.


I remember your expressions of fondness for this hole, and I am not surprised to see you chime in. 8 is a good hole, so ai agree that it's selection speaks to the overall high quality of the golf course. If not 8, I would be forced to go with 1 or 9 to the lower green.


Of all your courses that I have played, I think Ballyneal may have the best worst hole and you only rated it a 9. ;)
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Neil Regan

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2017, 11:07:18 PM »
...17 at Sand Hills ... connects two of the best holes on the property, and does so in a simple and elegant way.


  I think one of the most remarkable things about Sand Hills is that every hole does that.
 :)
Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

MClutterbuck

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2017, 01:08:22 PM »

I've not played it. Is there repair that could be done to the atrocity, like trimming back trees or something of that ilk?


RM

18 on Cypress is a bit of an atrocity. If it were in the middle of the course and a necessary connector hole I suppose it could be forgiven.




I would support 18 being the least good hole on a 10, and would go as far as stating this is a poor hole and even worse as a finisher following 15 (my favorite), 16, 17.


I would bet MacKenzie would change this hole today. Tree clearing would help, but setting environmental issues aside, I believe there is space to change the hole completely and have a spectacular last hole.

Niall C

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2017, 01:28:29 PM »
MC


You may be right about 18th Cypress Point however given the courses architectural pedigree; the esteem it is held in; and how the club value that, is it not now in the same category as 9th TOC in that no matter how many people advocate making significant changes the course is now in the realms of being untouchable to any significant degree ?


Niall

MClutterbuck

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2017, 01:42:09 PM »
MC


You may be right about 18th Cypress Point however given the courses architectural pedigree; the esteem it is held in; and how the club value that, is it not now in the same category as 9th TOC in that no matter how many people advocate making significant changes the course is now in the realms of being untouchable to any significant degree ?


Niall


You are probably right.


The other risk is that a change in 18 leads to other changes and that would be a shame. I have not played a better more enjoyable course, and would rather see 18 stay as is than see other tweaks made to the rest of the course.




Tom_Doak

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2017, 01:56:45 PM »
Listening to all of my fellow experts here finding flaws in the best courses reminded me of something ... the idea that art should contain a deliberate mistake.


My first Google search turned this up as an Arabic tradition, but further reading also provides examples in the Buddhist [Japanese] and Navajo traditions.  All of them believe, in one form or another, that such an imperfection is the way to let God [or spirits] into and out of the work.


Golf tends to appeal to perfectionists, but the more one works in golf architecture, the sillier that concept becomes.

Niall C

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2017, 02:09:08 PM »
If you accept design as an art form, which at one level most of us probably would, then can you get perfection in golf course design ? I mean, to me the concept of perfection suggests flawless which in turn suggests looking for preconceived set outcome. I'm conscious I'm straying into Peter Pallotta territory here   ;D  so let me just say I still think the 9th at TOC could do with more than a makeover.


Niall

Peter Pallotta

Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2017, 02:18:11 PM »
You called, sir?  :)
Yes, I've read that the Navajos would purposely weave one mistake into their otherwise beautifully perfect blankets, so as to let the Evil Spirit out.
I've come to believe that the evil spirit was/is the prideful perfectionism of the human ego.
Peter

MClutterbuck

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2017, 02:22:25 PM »
Listening to all of my fellow experts here finding flaws in the best courses reminded me of something ... the idea that art should contain a deliberate mistake.


My first Google search turned this up as an Arabic tradition, but further reading also provides examples in the Buddhist [Japanese] and Navajo traditions.  All of them believe, in one form or another, that such an imperfection is the way to let God [or spirits] into and out of the work.


Golf tends to appeal to perfectionists, but the more one works in golf architecture, the sillier that concept becomes.


The thread has this objective, right? Find a weaker hole...


It is all subjective and relative anyway, comparing 18 at CPC to the other 17 holes is probably unfair. Maybe singling out any one hole on any course is a bit unfair.


When I read the word "flaw" in your post I thought it was too strong, and I went back to my own post and I used the word "poor". I think I can defend the choice of "poor" as relative to the other 17 holes.


I would not go as far as using the word "flaw". For example, I think of the land on 18 and the era it was built. Probably what can be visualized today as an alternative routing to that hole was not possible or logical at that time. Would AM have considered bringing in a D6 for work on 18 today?

Anton

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2017, 02:22:50 PM »

I have not played many on the list but my take away of 'least good hole on course with CG rating of 10' would be:::
  • Merion - 6th = because the first 5 and last 12 are so stinkin good, this hole just always stands out to me as ordinary and unappealing. 
  • PVGC - all are good but when compared to the other 17, the 12th seems to be the lackluster sibling.  Good birdie opportunity though and a fun hole, just not as high caliber as the rest.
  • Pinehurst - always cringe at holes 6 + 7.  The green on 6 is just a nightmare and balls funnel off to the right bunker too easily when the pin is cut there.  The tee shot on 7 allows too many balls to run through the fairway into trees and scrub.  Although it is my understanding the 90 degree turn has been shaped nicer since the restoration. 
“I've spent most of my life golfing - the rest I've just wasted”

Thomas Dai

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2017, 02:51:48 PM »
Begs a question to me - "If a minor disaster was to befall and trash an allegedly poor/weak/flawed hole on a DS-10 course would the hole in question be rebuilt as it originally was or would it be rebuilt very differently?
Atb

Mark Pearce

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #69 on: March 20, 2017, 02:59:10 PM »

Of those I have played, my votes for the least compelling holes are:

Cypress Point: 1
I thought I might be the only person in the world who thought the first was CPC's weakest hole!
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MClutterbuck

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #70 on: March 20, 2017, 03:04:46 PM »

Of those I have played, my votes for the least compelling holes are:

Cypress Point: 1
I thought I might be the only person in the world who thought the first was CPC's weakest hole!


That gets fixed by playing Pebble Beach the day before...

James Boon

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #71 on: March 20, 2017, 03:10:50 PM »
The only Doak 10 I know well enough to comment is Royal Dornoch.


Most people have mentioned either 7 or 16...


The 7th tee is one of my favourite spots on the hole course, thanks to the view back to the right and behind you. I like the change in flow that the hole brings, there are some pretty cool little undulations in the fairway and the green is one of my favorites. I think its a very good hole and will miss it when they mess about with it. Change for changes sake?


The 16th tee is perhaps my second favourite spot, right by the beach. The drive is a good one as well, going left brings the fall away to that side and the quarry more into things but up the right the bank at driving distance is steeper and leaves a trickier second if you dont get far enough up... However, the approach and the green on 16, with the man made mounds is the real weak point for me! So the approach and green on 16 are the "least good half hole on a Doak 10!"  ::)


Cheers,


James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

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Tom_Doak

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #72 on: March 20, 2017, 03:29:06 PM »
Begs a question to me - "If a minor disaster was to befall and trash an allegedly poor/weak/flawed hole on a DS-10 course would the hole in question be rebuilt as it originally was or would it be rebuilt very differently?



That would depend on the club, and its consulting architect.


Royal Dornoch is one where the consultants have recommended changes to the existing course, without a disaster as cause.


I'm the consultant to two of the 10's ... Royal Melbourne and Crystal Downs.  [Well, I guess three, if you count Pacific Dunes.]  FWIW, if the 1st at RM or the 17th at Crystal Downs were destroyed by flash flood, I would suggest putting them back as they'd been.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #73 on: March 20, 2017, 03:32:29 PM »
Thread Category: Splitting of Hairs
SubCategory: The art of angering through Semantics
UnderSubCategory: Is least good still good?


Given this, we understand that no action will be taken as a result of opinions expressed within.


I always enjoy the minor branches that lead from trunks of good threads on this site. This one has them.
Coming in 2024
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~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Clyde Johnson

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Re: Least good hole on course with CG rating of 10 ?
« Reply #74 on: March 20, 2017, 06:18:30 PM »

Begs a question to me - "If a minor disaster was to befall and trash an allegedly poor/weak/flawed hole on a DS-10 course would the hole in question be rebuilt as it originally was or would it be rebuilt very differently?
Atb
I was reading Tom Simpson's chapters in The Lonsdale Library: The Game of Golf today, and thought of this thread. He had this to say: “An ideal course would not be ideal did it not contain at least one really bad hole, such, for example, as the tenth hole at St. Andrews – but it would be a crime in such circumstances to improve it."


He goes on: “It is not individually great holes that make a great golf course. It is rather the relationship that exists between one hole and another, which can only be properly appreciated by the expert.”

Pretty wise advice, and I'd say most of the
holes being (somewhat) dismissed in this thread are better than they are given credit for, especially when looked in this light!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 03:43:22 AM by Clyde Johnson »

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