[Niall C]

I’ve deliberately not said worst hole or bad hole because in theory they shouldn’t be bad and I do want to discuss holes that aren’t necessarily bad but are, in your opinion, the 18^th best on the course.
 
So what is your least good hole on a course with a Confidential Guide rating of 10 ? Bearing in mind the definition for a 10 as being “Nearly perfect; if you skipped even one hole you would miss something worth seeing”, do you think that hole is worth seeing ?
 
Niall

[Ryan Farrow]

Not a whole lot going on with #16 at Crystal Downs.

[John Kavanaugh]

For those of us not suffering from OHSUTDA how about listing the courses under consideration.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Ballybunion has a few to choose from. Wasn't so impressed with 4th, 5th and 18th. Not terrible holes, but certainly pretty ordinary when compared with some of the best holes.


I don't think there is any course out there that is anywhere near "nearly perfect". Any course that has 5-6 world class holes, 5-6 very good holes and the remainder comprising good/OK holes is probably as close to a 10 as you'll get.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Not crazy about 17&18 at Royal County Down.

[Tom_Doak]

Not crazy about 17&18 at Royal County Down.

Neither am I, one reason County Down is a 9 in my book [although two of my co-authors gave it a 10].


The 10's, according to me:


Royal Dornoch
St. Andrews
Muirfield
Ballybunion


Shinnecock Hills
NGLA
Pine Valley
Merion


Pinehurst #2
Crystal Downs
Sand Hills
Cypress Point
Pacific Dunes


*Royal Melbourne (West)


* based on previous editions.  I haven't rated it again yet, but it's not going to change 

[Brad Tufts]

#8 on the old course?  Mid to short iron to a HUGE double green that is relatively flat if I remember correctly.

[Tom_Doak]

#8 on the old course?  Mid to short iron to a HUGE double green that is relatively flat if I remember correctly.

Yes.  And how do you get it close to the hole when it's behind the front-center bunker, playing downwind?  [That's the prevailing wind.]  That hole LOOKS boring, but it is not as easy as it looks.

[Carl Nichols]

Assuming one of the authors has Seminole as a 10, how about #7?

[Tom_Doak]

Assuming one of the authors has Seminole as a 10, how about #7?

Actually it is rated 9 9 8 8   [that's according to me, Ran, Masa and Darius in that order]


And if #7 is the worst hole there, it's pretty darned good.

[Carl Nichols]

Assuming one of the authors has Seminole as a 10, how about #7?

Actually it is rated 9 9 8 8   [that's according to me, Ran, Masa and Darius in that order]


And if #7 is the worst hole there, it's pretty darned good.

Tom--
What do you think is the worst out there?  I thought that 7-8 (and maybe even 7-8-9) weren't that inspiring, but seems like you disagree about 7.

[Tom_Doak]

Not a whole lot going on with #16 at Crystal Downs.

This critique is common, and any member of the place would dismiss it as insanity.


There are no fairway bunkers ... the rough is the hazard.  All you've got to do is hit it into a curving fairway, twice in a row, and far enough to give you a reasonable third shot on a hole that's 590 yards, uphill, and often into the wind.  And then it's got a tough green where you need to stay below the hole, often with a long club in your hands.  A fairway bunker would be totally pointless [and if it was on the second shot, it would also be blind]. 

[Niall C]

Tom
 
Thanks for listing the CG 10’s (great name for a band btw).
 
Donal
 
I suspect when Tom wrote the first edition of the CG, however many years ago that was, I doubt he was thinking that it would be as widely read, and the contents parsed over on something called the “internet” several decades later. If he did he might have been a bit more exacting in his definitions, or then again maybe not. Either way, “nearly perfect” gives a handy out but then you have the bit about skipping a hole and missing something worth seeing. Would you be happy to miss those holes at Ballybunion ?
 
Brad
 
Like you I thought of the 8^th at TOC and indeed the 9^th. They aren’t bad holes as such but if it wasn’t for the 11^th you might be tempted to step off the 7^th green and move straight to the 12^th tee. That and the fact that you’ve likely stumped up a small fortune for the green fee.
 
Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Tom--
What do you think is the worst out there?  I thought that 7-8 (and maybe even 7-8-9) weren't that inspiring, but seems like you disagree about 7.

If I had to pick a least favorite hole, it would probably be the 9th, which is unappealingly flat.  Though I must say, they've cleaned it up a bunch in recent years ... it used to feel kind of swampy, but they've cut back a lot of the vegetation that made it feel crowded in.


Holes 1, 9, 10 and 14 were the only ones not to get an ! next to them in my write-up for The Gourmet's Choice.  I was maybe a bit stingy on #14, at that.

[Tom_Doak]

Donal
 
I suspect when Tom wrote the first edition of the CG, however many years ago that was, I doubt he was thinking that it would be as widely read, and the contents parsed over on something called the “internet” several decades later. If he did he might have been a bit more exacting in his definitions, or then again maybe not. Either way, “nearly perfect” gives a handy out but then you have the bit about skipping a hole and missing something worth seeing. Would you be happy to miss those holes at Ballybunion ?
 
Brad
 
Like you I thought of the 8^th at TOC and indeed the 9^th. They aren’t bad holes as such but if it wasn’t for the 11^th you might be tempted to step off the 7^th green and move straight to the 12^th tee. That and the fact that you’ve likely stumped up a small fortune for the green fee.

To your last point, the fact that golfers like to have some chances at birdies on a famous course, probably is the biggest reason not to skip the end of the course [aka "The Loop" ... wow, I never thought til now that we inadvertently named our new course after something on The Old Course].


To the previous point, no, even with a year at M.I.T., I did not anticipate the internet.  I said here a few years ago that was a bit poorly worded, that I should have said that even the worst hole added something to the course ... it might not necessarily be noteworthy, but it added something to the flow of play and the experience. 


I guess you could rationalize that last bit about any course you loved, if you wanted to, but I'll give an example.  The last two holes at County Down keep it from being a 10 in my book.  In reality, they're not much worse holes than 4 & 5 at Ballybunion [though they do include a POND] ... but having them right at the end is a big letdown.  Ironically, up until about 1970, the clubhouse was at the other end of Ballybunion, and today's 4th and 5th WERE the finishing holes ... and if I'd played it that way, I might not have given it a 10 on the Doak Scale.

[Brad Tufts]

Let's see...I have played all of these except for Sand Hills and Royal Melbourne...

Dornoch...#7, not a bad hole, just a long, not terribly exciting hole.  I know there are plans afoot to someday move this hole closer to the edge of the cliff and clear the gorse on the right...this may improve it, but its a big change for a hole that's been there for a long time.  #1 is also not awe-inspiring.

Muirfield....#1?  Minimal hazards, just keep it out of the long grass.

Ballybunion...has to be one of 4-5-6....inland, against the cottages...#6 would seem to fit with the odd OB jutting in, but it has an ocean backdrop.

Shinny...#8 is the best I can come up with.

NGLA...Really struggled here as I just love each hole...maybe #1 or #11?

Merion...#7?  Hard by the chainlink fence and the backyards...#12 gets weird when the green is too fast.

Pinehurst #2...For me it's the third hole, as I think it's too long to be drivable for 99% of players, so it just a benign drive-and-pitch, and unfortunately the only short par four on the course.

Crystal Downs...#11 because the green may be too severe for the speed...but otherwise #16.

Cypress...#4...again not a bad hole, just "least great."

Pac Dunes...another major struggle...8/12/15 are the candidates perhaps?...my one weekend there was almost 11 years ago!

[BCowan]

Pinehurst #2, The 3rd holes is probably the best drive and pitch hole I've ever played.  It is one of the best if not the best hole on the course IMO. 

[Thomas Dai]

Dornoch - 16th?
Ballybunion - 4th, 5th, (not 6th, awkward/nice green), 18th - interesting comment about where the Clubhouse used to be - was the development of The Cashen course one of the reasons for re-siting the Clubhouse?
Atb

[Niall C]

Tom
 
Absolutely. Really what I think you are talking about is context. Rather than judge the hole in isolation, judge it as part of the round. In that regard I don’t know about 8^th and 9^th TOC necessarily being obvious birdie opportunities relative to the other holes but I suppose you could argue they are breather holes after the pitch and roll of the earlier holes.
 
However if you took the whole course out of the context of being the most famous in the world etc etc and imagined if you can that it was transported to further up the coast to some quiet fishing town like Fraserburgh, or Lossiemouth for example and you were a local going out for a few holes in the evening, would you be too bothered about missing out “the loop” ?
 
Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Ballybunion -  was the development of The Cashen course one of the reasons for re-siting the Clubhouse?

No.  The old clubhouse was very small, and when they decided to build something nicer - a previous building on the site of today's clubhouse - they decided to move it.  Presumably they didn't want to go without in an interim phase; I don't know who thought of where to move it, or whether the "weak finish" played a role in their thinking.


The Cashen was never a thought until they started raising money to fight coastal erosion, and wound up raising a lot more than they expected ... or so I was told.  It's possible that someone in the club had the idea in the back of their mind, but it's certainly not the official narrative.

[Brad Tufts]

Pinehurst #2, The 3rd holes is probably the best drive and pitch hole I've ever played.  It is one of the best if not the best hole on the course IMO.

Awesome, so what is your "least great hole" at #2?

Other options at #2 might be #8 as a par five...but I still love that green complex...#10 is on the benign side of things, and doesn't have a severe green like most other holes.

As for the third hole, the "best drive-and-pitch you have played?"  You need to get out more!    Like many of the others I mentioned above, #3 is not a bad hole, just the "least great" for me at #2.  Without the "drive the green" option you might get by putting the tees way up for a round in the US Open, it's just a layup to miss the fairway bunkers, and a short iron.

[John Kirk]

I'd vote for the 9th hole at St. Andrews, but I liked it a lot.  It's plain, but fun.

I still think 17th hole at Crystal Downs is, at a minimum, strange.

[Jason Topp]

I like the topic.  My picks from the courses I have played:

Royal Dornoch - 16 - an uphill slog.  I have been told there is some subtlety to the hole but I have not experienced it.

St. Andrews - probably 9, although I like the hole

Ballybunion - 18 left me a bit disappointed.

Pinehurst #2 - In one play, I found it difficult to see the holes from the tee and difficult to differentiate between them in my memory.  This seems like a course that would require five rounds to really have a sense of how the holes play.  I will need to pass on naming a hole there.

Crystal Downs - 12 would be the leading candidate for me. 

Sand Hills - I do not think there is a candidate.  I might name the first par 3 on the back but I think that is a really good, albeit tough, hole.

Pacific Dunes - 9 gets my vote.  A relatively straightforward way to get from 8 to 10.  Primary memory is the tee shot over the hill and figuring out which green was in play that day.

*Royal Melbourne (West)  - 11 or 15.  11 is a fun short par 4 but relies on quick firm green for interest.  They were not quick or that firm when I played.  15 seems a bit crammed into a limited space.  Strip of native 50 yards short of the green is not my favorite feature.

[Tom_Doak]

*Royal Melbourne (West)  - 11 or 15.  11 is a fun short par 4 but relies on quick firm green for interest.  They were not quick or that firm when I played.  15 seems a bit crammed into a limited space.  Strip of native 50 yards short of the green is not my favorite feature.

The 11th is not a short par-4 ... it's the downhill-around-the-corner, back uphill par 4.  The 10th is the short par-4 up and to the left, which is one of the most iconic holes in Australia.  If you really mean that one, you may not be allowed back in the country ever again ...

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

If Pebble is considered a 10... Where do you start....I can think of at least five mediocre holes...which is why to me it us so overrated.




Sorry did not see the Confidential Guide criteria...apologies

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