[Joel_Stewart]

Over the last few weeks there have been several changes with some of the country's most notable superintendents.


It began when Merions superintendent Matt Shaffer retired.  Paul Latshaw was a surprise choice leaving Muirfield Village.


Chad Mark then left Inverness to go to Muirfield Village.


Now, Oakmonts John Zimmer has accepted the position at Inverness. Zimmer was at Oakmont for 20 years.


Who will Oakmont select. 


It would be interesting to see the contracts each of these superintendent have.  Does Latshaw bring his Augusta type conditioning to Merion?

[Marty Bonnar]

I'm free...

[Mike Sweeney]

"If I had my way, there would be a troupe of cavalry horses running through every trap and bunker on the course before a tournament started, where only a niblick could get the ball out and then but only a few yards. I have seen a number of traps and bunkers that afforded better lies and easier strokes than the fairway. This, of course, is ridiculous."
Charles Blair Macdonald

[BCowan]

It will be interesting with folks coming from Poa/bent to pure bent and vice versa.  I don't see much good coming from this thread.  You are also assuming that great keepers don't stay away from tracks that host majors. 

[JESII]

Joel - Latshaw was at Merion through the late 90's.


What event does Inverness have coming up? I assume it's a USGA event.

[Eric Hammerbacher]

Wow, Bob Ford now John Zimmers gone from Oakmont!

[Joe Bausch]

What event does Inverness have coming up? I assume it's a USGA event.

I know they have a Solheim Cup in 2021 IIRC.  And I think the 2019 US Junior.

[Don Mahaffey]

This thread should be about green chairs and BODs

[Mark_Fine]

I recently had a long discussion about all this with a good friend of mind who knows the industry well and is a member at one of these venues.  My worry is the potential rebuilding of old push up greens which could result from some of these changes.  Some of these courses still have "push up" greens (they actually aren't really push up greens any more, at least their soil profile no longer represents them).  Also mapping greens has come a long way but you can never exactly reconstruct those same contours over again if you try to for the sake of introducing pure bent grass.  It will be interesting to see what impact these superintendent changes have on their respective new courses. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Over the last few weeks there have been several changes with some of the country's most notable superintendents.


It began when Merions superintendent Matt Shaffer retired.  Paul Latshaw was a surprise choice leaving Muirfield Village.


Chad Mark then left Inverness to go to Muirfield Village.


Now, Oakmonts John Zimmer has accepted the position at Inverness. Zimmer was at Oakmont for 20 years.


Who will Oakmont select. 


It would be interesting to see the contracts each of these superintendent have.  Does Latshaw bring his Augusta type conditioning to Merion?

Paul B leaving wasn't that big of a surprise, really. Opportunity to get back to where is all started in the 90' working under Dick Bator and be part of a huge renovation with Gil Hanse and be closer to his dad, Paul R.

Ben-Im not sure how to read your comments, but when you get on the level these guys are at-bent, poa they can and have grown it all and at the highest of levels. JZ was at Congressional, then Sand Ridge before Oakmont, Paul B was at Merion and Oak Hill before Muirfield.

[David Wuthrich]

Zimmers is a big loss for Oakmont!

[Ian Mackenzie]

I heard that Oakmont "first assistant", Dave Delsandro, has been interviewing for head jobs again.
He's been Zimmer's protege for years I have read.


Would seem logical that he would get a shot at head gig at Oakmont.

[Anthony_Nysse]

  Also mapping greens has come a long way but you can never exactly reconstruct those same contours over again if you try to for the sake of introducing pure bent grass.  It will be interesting to see what impact these superintendent changes have on their respective new courses.

  Unfortunately, this really isn't the case. Scott Pool of Greenscan 3ddeveloped a way to digital map greens or an entire golf course to have the ability to put the surfaces back exactly how they once were. He does this at Augusta every year and in fact and has been involved with Winged Foot's recent work.
  We had him GPS our entire golf course to the 1/10" of an inch. Other than the greens that we intentionally changed, we put back all our putting surfaces to exactly how they were.

[SL_Solow]

Tony;  Not sure why that is unfortunate.  Query, if the course is changing from native soil to USGA greens, do you think there will be greater difficulties in replicating contours?  In your case, any issues with settling?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tony;  Not sure why that is unfortunate.  Query, if the course is changing from native soil to USGA greens, do you think there will be greater difficulties in replicating contours?  In your case, any issues with settling?

Sorry-sort of a tongue in cheek comment. Don't like to tell Ian that he's incorrect in the abilities to put greens back to exactly how they were.
  Our greens were never really built to USGA specs when built in 1986. When greens were regrassed in 2004, adjustments in contouring were made, also. When we dug into the old green cavities last summer, we found most greens had 22-24" of "mix," enough that old greens mix from 2 greens raised the entire 1st fairway over 12".
  We have not, nor anticipate any settling. All the mix was watered and packed as it was spread through the greens site.
  You can see in the pics that I have attached of our #1 green and the rainbow of colors, showing each contour. You can also see our #1 fwy with and elevation of 16.5 feet (which is the highest level of water before the pumps kicks on) and 17.5', which was the minimum we wanted to raise the fairways. All the dozers were connected to GPS to ensure that fairways at least met grade before the contouring was put back into them.

[SL_Solow]

Tony;  Thanks.  I am curious because one of the courses up here, built during the golden age, is converting its old pushed up greens to USGA spec.  I have seen the laser mapping etc and I am very impressed but there is a part of me that remains dubious.  It will be interesting to watch`

[Tim Fitz]

Tony;  Thanks.  I am curious because one of the courses up here, built during the golden age, is converting its old pushed up greens to USGA spec.  I have seen the laser mapping etc and I am very impressed but there is a part of me that remains dubious.  It will be interesting to watch`

Those of us that have to live with the results have more than a passing interest in the success of the project and the laser mapping.  I have always thought we had some of the better greens around at NSCC.  However, I have a high degree of confidence in our super and he thinks this is the right approach for our greens.  I only hope that we don't lose some of the character of some of our better greens (my favorites being 4, 5 and 16).

[Mike_Young]

I have spoken to several guys about the system Tony is talking about and all say it works as stated.  IF there are limitations in some areas it comes down to blade width.  You can't replicate greens etc with a larger blade without losing some detail and contractors have done that.  Never done it but that is what I am told....

[SL_Solow]

I never mentioned the club name for a reason..  I am just curious.  I have the utmost confidence in your super; he is one of the very best.

[Tom_Doak]

I've known Scott Pool for 35+ years ... he was on the construction crew at Long Cove Club, and I shared an apartment with him briefly once or twice after that, while working for the Dyes.


Anyone that says they can reproduce 18 greens EXACTLY is a bit overconfident, but in many cases someone's got to try, and his system is as good as any I've seen.


The part that bothers me is that they often use it to enable changes to the greens.  I've heard of clubs reducing the slopes of a green to 3/4 of what's there, to deal with modern speeds, or editing certain hole locations to make them "fairer."  So, the technology that enables greens to be reproduced, winds up enabling people to redesign them.


There are some greens that need to be changed, and some that don't.  With this technology, they'll all get changed, because it's so "easy".

[Anthony_Nysse]

I've known Scott Pool for 35+ years ... he was on the construction crew at Long Cove Club, and I shared an apartment with him briefly once or twice after that, while working for the Dyes.


Anyone that says they can reproduce 18 greens EXACTLY is a bit overconfident, but in many cases someone's got to try, and his system is as good as any I've seen.


The part that bothers me is that they often use it to enable changes to the greens.  I've heard of clubs reducing the slopes of a green to 3/4 of what's there, to deal with modern speeds, or editing certain hole locations to make them "fairer."  So, the technology that enables greens to be reproduced, winds up enabling people to redesign them.


There are some greens that need to be changed, and some that don't.  With this technology, they'll all get changed, because it's so "easy".

Yes, he told me a few stories.

If the club makes a decision to change a slope, its not the technologies fault. The technology is there, human intervention is changing it. Thankfulyl on our part, our greens are very, very flat to begin with. That being said, our challenge was to get water off the surface while maintaining such subtleties.

[Tom_Doak]

If the club makes a decision to change a slope, its not the technologies fault. The technology is there, human intervention is changing it. Thankfulyl on our part, our greens are very, very flat to begin with. That being said, our challenge was to get water off the surface while maintaining such subtleties.

So ... did you change some greens?


The more I've seen of old greens the more I think the topdressing has changed them significantly, and that you wouldn't want to put back exactly what was [is] there. 


Years ago, we walked through all of Cypress Point's greens, and it was evident that they were all 6-8 inches higher than they used to be ... so, a much more severe false front [and/or shorter in the front because of the slope], and less of a punchbowl effect at the back.  In fact, knowing MacKenzie's penchant for drawing greens as a series of little bowls, I'd guess that a lot of the lows have filled up over time, resulting in more back-to-front character.  But you would not restore that with technology; you'd just have to make conscious decisions to restore as you went, and few clubs of that ilk would give an architect that much leeway to restore to what he thought was correct.

[Anthony_Nysse]

If the club makes a decision to change a slope, its not the technologies fault. The technology is there, human intervention is changing it. Thankfulyl on our part, our greens are very, very flat to begin with. That being said, our challenge was to get water off the surface while maintaining such subtleties.

So ... did you change some greens?


The more I've seen of old greens the more I think the topdressing has changed them significantly, and that you wouldn't want to put back exactly what was there. 


Years ago, we walked through all of Cypress Point's greens, and it was evident that they were all 6-8 inches higher than they used to be ... so, a much more severe false front [and/or shorter in the front because of the slope], and less of a punchbowl effect at the back.  In fact, knowing MacKenzie's penchant for drawing greens as a series of little bowls, I'd guess that a lot of the lows have filled up over time, resulting in more back-to-front character.  But you would not restore that with technology; you'd just have to make conscious decisions to restore as you went, and few clubs of that ilk would give an architect that much leeway to restore to what he thought was correct.

Tom,
  Our greens were built in 1986-87 and then grassed to G-2 bentgrass in 1997. In 2004, greens were stripped 4-5", floated out and regrassed with Tifeagle. 11 years of cultural practices and topdressing, our greens were GPSed in the summer of 2015. The membership loved the greens as they were, so we put them back to how they were GPSed. We have not data of how they were originally, but I suspect some changes happed over time.
  We did find that some greens had shrunk significantly. Out 18th green had moved away from the bulkhead nearly 12 feet. Other greens shrunk 4-6'. At the end of the day, we promised the membership to restore the greens as they were the last day they played them in April, not including #6, #9, #16.

[Marc Haring]

I went to a presentation I guess about 15 years ago by the Merion Super so I assume Matt Shaffer. I remember being blown away by his methods in that it was minimise drainage so as all water ran off the greens and then spray constantly to prevent disease. It was a "manage poa" method taken to the extreme. Don't think there was any aeration! Bizarre but effective and clearly outside the box thinking. I guess he had to rely on greens contours that would naturally shed water.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I went to a presentation I guess about 15 years ago by the Merion Super so I assume Matt Shaffer. I remember being blown away by his methods in that it was minimise drainage so as all water ran off the greens and then spray constantly to prevent disease. It was a "manage poa" method taken to the extreme. Don't think there was any aeration! Bizarre but effective and clearly outside the box thinking. I guess he had to rely on greens contours that would naturally shed water.

http://www.turfnet.com/news.html/_/merions-shaffer-at-home-living-on-the-edge-r562

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