The case for banning drones..

[Tom_Doak]

John M - I too certainly hope that architects won't have to start worrying about overhead aesthetics. But I think they'll have to start worrying about overhead aesthetics. To riff off my own current thread: who's to say that golf courses need to be view and played only from ground level? After all, it's a big world.....

Funny you should mention that.


When I first moved to Traverse City, Mr. Dye recommended me to Herb Kohler to go and take pictures of Blackwolf Run when it was new.  Mr. Kohler had arranged a helicopter for me to do all the shooting -- his brother was actually the pilot! 


The day I got there was cloudy, but we went up so I could see what I was working with, and after five minutes I told him I'd seen enough.  We went back to Mr. K. and I told him I didn't want the helicopter!  When he argued I replied that Mr. Dye had spent a lot of time hiding all his cart paths, but from the helicopter the whole course looked like a go-cart track    That was before digital photography and Photoshop, of course.  Anyway, I got my way and spent three days taking pictures from golfer's eye level.  I think my photo is still the one on their scorecard.


What did I learn?  The most photogenic courses from the air are the ones which go walking-only and don't have cart paths.  It's been a great help to my career.

[Andy Johnson]

John,


A drone and aerial photography have so many benefits to the game of golf, here are 3 examples of why drone photography can be beneficial.



Example 1: Showcasing an architectural feature


I wrote an article about Tillinghast's Great Hazard, the best way to truly understand the feature is drone footage, it allows an unfamiliar student of architecture to visually seen the magnitude of this architectural feature.





Example 2:An Unseen factor

Here's a photo of Loblolly, its a course that is a couple hundred yards from the Ocean but you would never know that it was there. Thus when its windy its really tough but many wonder why it gets so windy there. Without this photo from a drone, you would never know that its so close.










Example 3: Explaining Width and playability


Aerial photos allow for comparison in width of different courses and different holes. GC of Houston's best hole is the short par 4 12th, is it possible because it is the widest and allows for options, different playing angles and strategy? Look at how wide it is versus the long and narrow par 4 11th coming the other way?







I will eagerly awaiting your response and attempt to debunk the validity of the benefits of drone and aerial photography that I have laid out above.

[BCowan]

Barney,


   You can't be okay with music on the course and distance aids and then be anti drones.  Your cremudgeon card has been revoked.  Counterfeit cremudgeon! 

[Benjamin Litman]

Isn't the "architect's intent" the purest justification for drones? Tom, Mike, and others, please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that a hand-drawn (or, now, electronically generated) blueprint is the seminal component of any golf architect's design. To be sure, the playing golfer's on-the-ground perspective better allows a blueprint's two-dimensional elevation markings to come to life, but, in almost all other respects, the aerial perspective a drone provides aligns much better with the blueprint and, in turn, the architect's intent.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,


A drone and aerial photography have so many benefits to the game of golf, here are 3 examples of why drone photography can be beneficial.



Example 1: Showcasing an architectural feature


I wrote an article about Tillinghast's Great Hazard, the best way to truly understand the feature is drone footage, it allows an unfamiliar student of architecture to visually seen the magnitude of this architectural feature.





Example 2:An Unseen factor

Here's a photo of Loblolly, its a course that is a couple hundred yards from the Ocean but you would never know that it was there. Thus when its windy its really tough but many wonder why it gets so windy there. Without this photo from a drone, you would never know that its so close.










Example 3: Explaining Width and playability


Aerial photos allow for comparison in width of different courses and different holes. GC of Houston's best hole is the short par 4 12th, is it possible because it is the widest and allows for options, different playing angles and strategy? Look at how wide it is versus the long and narrow par 4 11th coming the other way?







I will eagerly awaiting your response and attempt to debunk the validity of the benefits of drone and aerial photography that I have laid out above.

Andy,


Thanks, it takes work to provide such a thoughtful response. Here are some short answers:


1. I honestly don't know what course that is and am not impressed on first glance. As a matter of fact the great hazard barely looks bigger than a few of the green sites in the picture. I much prefer this drawing and land based pictures associated with this article: http://www.tillinghast.net/Tillinghast/The_Great_Hazard.html


2. My Dad lives in Vero Beach Florida on the Barrier Island. I've never needed a reminder that I am close to the ocean once I've traveled specifically to a destination near the ocean. Who are these people that wonder why it's windy there?


3. My God man. When viewing a picture from the edge of a property line all lines converge to the horizon making items closer appear to be bigger than those further. That picture presents a false narrative in regards to width when compared to a scaled architectural drawing.


In all honesty all three pictures made me uncomfortable when considering if I would want to travel to play any of the venues.

[John Kavanaugh]

I do not have permission to post any of Jon's photos of Pine Valley so I will provide a link: https://twitter.com/linksgems/status/746168199859822592


What can we learn from these? Do they paint the course in a poor light and can that be considered in poor taste for a guest of a private club?

[Scott Weersing]

While drone photos can show a unique view, they tend to flatten out the course and so you cannot see the "rumpled fairways" that we like in our courses. You could have the right shadows with a drone photo but I have found that ground level photos show the shadows better.

[Michael Moore]

The sheer number of dead-perpendicular drone shots used for transitions in the Amy Winehouse documentary were ruinously distracting. She was not a bird or a helicopter pilot. I don't get it.

[Thomas Dai]

While drone photos can show a unique view, they tend to flatten out the course and so you cannot see the "rumpled fairways" that we like in our courses. You could have the right shadows with a drone photo but I have found that ground level photos show the shadows better.

I wonder what drone photos in black and white might show?
atb

[Brian Finn]

I wonder what drone photos in black and white might show?
atb

Check out a couple of these videos...

https://www.sugarloafcreativelab.com/work/

[John Kavanaugh]

I wonder what drone photos in black and white might show?
atb

Check out a couple of these videos...

https://www.sugarloafcreativelab.com/work/

Brian,


Thanks, I guess at 57 years old I just don't get it as those videos make me want to give up the game. I will say, getting filmed does lend one to hold that follow through and stay on balance. Nothing worse than the fake held follow through, well maybe not nothing but I need to let it go. What the hell is wrong with these guys?

[Eric Smith]

Does anyone have experience at drone footage from very low levels - near player's view rather than high above?  I would be interested in seeing that perspective, but imagine it would be pretty choppy looking.

This is where I imagine you're likely to get a fresh perspective. Especially on a distinctive property like a links with plenty of hillocks and hollows.


The photo below from the kingdom59 website has always made me smile. It is of the New Course at St Andrews I believe and though it was likely not taken using a drone but from the clubhouse terrace it is I think a perspective "from above" worth capturing (and sharing!)

[Drew Groeger]

While drone photos can show a unique view, they tend to flatten out the course and so you cannot see the "rumpled fairways" that we like in our courses. You could have the right shadows with a drone photo but I have found that ground level photos show the shadows better.

I would agree with this about high-level views flattening out a golf course, whether its by drone or camera or watercolorist high on a hill. For me, if the intent of the drone footage is to showcase a hole and give some insight into how the hole can play, I prefer they fly from behind the tee to the green at no more than treetop height at best (20-30 ft. up might be better, just a guess). Lundin Golf Club in Fife has a great series of hole-by-hole flyovers that do this with the resulting effect being: I REALLY want to play here! My only crit would be the footage is too fast! I pause it at times to take it all in.

Whatever side of the drone debate you fall on, do yourself a favor and watch them in full screen and in HD. Its the only chance you'll have of seeing any contours or nuance.

[John Kavanaugh]

Looks like we have reached a compromise. Drones are an excellent tool for construction and maintenance. Also in the right hands of a professional under the request and permission of a course they may work as a marketing tool. I give.

[Tim_Weiman]

I do not have permission to post any of Jon's photos of Pine Valley so I will provide a link: https://twitter.com/linksgems/status/746168199859822592


What can we learn from these? Do they paint the course in a poor light and can that be considered in poor taste for a guest of a private club?

John,


The drone picture of #18 at Pine Valley is probably the worst picture of that hole I have ever seen.

[BCowan]

I see where Jkava is going with this.  It's all coming together now. 

[Jon Cavalier]

I do not have permission to post any of Jon's photos of Pine Valley so I will provide a link: https://twitter.com/linksgems/status/746168199859822592


What can we learn from these? Do they paint the course in a poor light and can that be considered in poor taste for a guest of a private club?

John:


I'd have given you permission if you'd asked.  At the very least, I'd have pointed you in the direction of a better photo. Perhaps one of these:














Enjoying the discussion so far.


Jon Cavalier

[John Kavanaugh]

Maybe if I had some peanuts and those little bottles of Jack you get on an airplane. Doesn't every course look great out an airplane window. I think when flying back from Glasgow I woke up just long enough to see Nova Scotia out the window. I have to admit, those courses looked one hell of a lot better than that sweaty bastard on my shoulder.

[Steve Lang]

Steve,

Do you really want players carrying drones around in the back of their carts launching them willy nilly? I recently was listening to a podcast where a golfer enthusiastically mentioned how he can now take his drone on planes accompanying him on trips. Are we that far from drones being as common as boom boxes. Music I get...drones, I'm not there yet.

Nope, no willy nilly launches, I can easily see a 4-drone ball match getting a little testy and dangerous.. shades of the old fly-by-wire model airplane dogfights which were quite a lot of fun until someone crashed.. which took me out of that hobby fairly quickly...


I just went to Jon C's link you posted, and noted the following courses had aerial shots.  While I like the earthly views, as something I'd like to experience, the elevated perspectives are certainly better than Google Earth. 

Seminole
Kittansett
Somerset hills cc
Eastward ho
Cypress point
Sleepy hollow cc
Shinnecock hills
Ngla
Friars head
Pebble beach golf links
Olympic club
Maidstone
Ridgewood cc
Pine valley
Monterey peninsula cc
Cypress point club
Newport golf club
Cal club

Good topic and food for thought.. maybe the title should be changed, now that you've sort of conceded. 

[John Kavanaugh]

"A good photograph is knowing where to stand" - Ansel Adams

[Steve Lang]

 


and


There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.  - Ansel Adams
goodnight

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

My brother shot a drone down over his property...with a shotgun...it was that low and invasive.

Best post.

I assume your brother isn't this guy? I say good for him, one of those comes over my property and its getting blasted.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/drones/news/a17969/man-who-shot-down-drone-cleared-of-all-charges/

[Mike Hendren]

Kip weighs in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmqyc1VVw4M

[Sean_A]

My brother shot a drone down over his property...with a shotgun...it was that low and invasive.

Best post.

I assume your brother isn't this guy? I say good for him, one of those comes over my property and its getting blasted.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/drones/news/a17969/man-who-shot-down-drone-cleared-of-all-charges/

Nope...wrong state.  The odd thing is the owner never tried to claim the thing.  My bro suspects the drone was stolen and being used for dodgy purposes.  His suspicions were greatly heightened when the drone flew through his barn     Good flying though...


Ciao

[Anton]

One of the most ridiculous threads I have ever read on this site.  Thank goodness someone asked for examples of good drone pics. 


Thank you Jon Cavalier for posting the wonderful images.  You are a very talented photographer.     The photo tour of Old Sandwich is truly beautiful artwork and I am fairly confident you used a drone for that shoot.