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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
The case for banning drones..
« on: February 28, 2017, 09:53:22 AM »
Once a guest arrives at a course with a drone in his possession it's too late. A pro or a host shouldn't be put in the position of cancelling christmas by making the puppy eyed golfer keep his new toy in the trunk. I mean, what could be the harm in a few more pics?


First of all from a societal perspective. Do members of a course have any rights to privacy while on the course. We can control those in our group who may want to document the day. We can identify those who may wish to take pictures of us with a hand held device. The anonymous nature of the drone photographer violates basic privacy defense systems.


From an architectural standpoint do drones provide any documentary evidence valuable to a student of the genre?


In in relaxed competition does using a drone to view a blind shot violate basic principals of the game. Yes it's only a matter of time before drones are used for more than just photos. It's a natural progression.


A small sample of why drones should be banned before they become as common as camera phones and cargo pants. Ideas?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2017, 10:13:32 AM »
The implications of drone use are far more insidious than any effect they'll have on golf.


As for golf architectural use, I'm working on a routing for a new project, and the brush in some areas is so thick that we are planning to do a low-level drone video flyover of the proposed routing in lieu of trying to walk the clients around the terrain, which is just too rugged in its natural state.  But I'm told the things have tremendous utility for doing terrain mapping and analyzing irrigation coverage and turf problems.


They're a great tool, until the day they come and hunt us all down like dogs.

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2017, 10:14:38 AM »
Drones are only allowed on my course with my permission, which will only be granted if the course is completely empty and if i have full use of whatever they record.  The safety concerns are even larger than privacy concerns.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2017, 10:23:08 AM »
Drones are only allowed on my course with my permission, which will only be granted if the course is completely empty and if i have full use of whatever they record.  The safety concerns are even larger than privacy concerns.


Have you put that in writing on your website for potential guests to see? As someone who has had to take guests to a local Walmart who showed up with only jeans and fought friends who refused to convert to soft spikes I prefer the rules to be spelled out.

Anton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2017, 10:43:34 AM »

My home clubs require written permission for flying them on property and to take photos.  To my knowledge it has only been authorized for publicity (ex website flyovers) and no one has violated that stance.  Now if a drone is piloted over the course by someone off property, we can notify authorities because it is a violation of privacy (drone pilots do have regulations to adhere to). 


As far as architecture, I find no more knowledge can be gained than a helicopter flying overhead except for more ground level video.  I don't see it impacting design philosophies though there is just as much of a possibility of positive impact as there is negative impact.   ;D  cup half full or half empty philosophy - its all in perspective.


Also, it is not too late if someone pulls up and takes a drone out on the course.  The course can absolutely deny the use.  Public or private course, you are still entering private property just like walking into a theme park.  All facilities have the right to refuse the use of certain devices and can penalize how they see fit.


I do not own a drone nor do I foresee myself buying one.  Do I like the photos? Yes sometimes.  It gives an interesting perspective and I enjoy the vantage point.  They can be an effective marketing tool and entice people to play a particular course.  This was the case with a flyover tour I saw of the Hideaway in Palm Springs.  I had never played the courses so I used reciprocal playing privileges to play there after seeing some aerial photos.   I do want them to be piloted responsibly and like with anything else, there will be idiots who are reckless and have a total disregard for public safety and privacy.  That's just human nature.   :)
“I've spent most of my life golfing - the rest I've just wasted”

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2017, 11:01:11 AM »
Now if a drone is piloted over the course by someone off property, we can notify authorities because it is a violation of privacy (drone pilots do have regulations to adhere to). 
Is this true?  Is it illegal to take photos/videos of a golf course via drone, without permission?  Can anyone provide more detail on what can/cannot be done? 

For what it's worth, I've seen some incredible drone videos of golf courses (Westhampton CC was the best I've seen yet) that I believe could greatly add to the study of architecture for the professional or enthusiast.  I've also seen some absolutely stunning photos via drone.

Edit:  Adding link to youtube video of Westhampton, which I mentioned above.

https://youtu.be/-QKhntjZWh4
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 12:29:34 PM by Brian Finn »
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2017, 12:24:23 PM »
I think drone laws vary by state. The FAA rules say:
Small unmanned aircraft may not operate over any persons not directly participating in the operation.

The rules don't say if that's for safety or privacy, but that would seem to preclude drone usage over a course where people are playing unless the people playing have agreed to it.  It doesn't seem like the club alone could grant permission if there are people playing.  So, John K, I think your privacy concerns are addressed.

It's actually an interesting question about impact on architecture.  I think that drone shots can be an interesting way to look at a golf course, but certainly hope that designers don't have to start worrying about overhead aesthetics (due to drones) as part of design.  Things that might look fine from the ground could be unattractive from overhead, but who should care?

Does anyone have experience at drone footage from very low levels - near player's view rather than high above?  I would be interested in seeing that perspective, but imagine it would be pretty choppy looking.

Hunter Rigsby

Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2017, 12:48:35 PM »
Now if a drone is piloted over the course by someone off property, we can notify authorities because it is a violation of privacy (drone pilots do have regulations to adhere to). 
Is this true?  Is it illegal to take photos/videos of a golf course via drone, without permission?  Can anyone provide more detail on what can/cannot be done? 

For what it's worth, I've seen some incredible drone videos of golf courses (Westhampton CC was the best I've seen yet) that I believe could greatly add to the study of architecture for the professional or enthusiast.  I've also seen some absolutely stunning photos via drone.

Edit:  Adding link to youtube video of Westhampton, which I mentioned above.

https://youtu.be/-QKhntjZWh4


Under current laws, it is not illegal to take photos of private property without permission.  Property owners control the 500' of airspace directly above their land (which is the minimum height that planes are allowed to fly at when not taking off or landing).  Drone flight height is limited to 400' without clearance from the nearest airport (which is really easy to get). 


So, if a property owner doesn't give permission to a drone operator to "enter their airspace" they cannot stop them from moving to an adjacent property, getting permission (if it's privately owned) and taking pictures of their land.  The drone operator could also call the airport, ask for permission to fly at 501' for a few minutes at X location, and go about it that way. 


This is just the legal aspect of it.  The difficulty surrounding actually getting the laws enforced is another issue entirely.  I think you'd have a hard time calling the police and getting them to take you seriously when you tell them that someone has entered your "privately owned airspace".  You'd have an even harder time using the "flying directly over people" argument considering how difficult that would be to prove. 




Peter Pallotta

Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2017, 04:32:29 PM »
John M - I too certainly hope that architects won't have to start worrying about overhead aesthetics. But I think they'll have to start worrying about overhead aesthetics. To riff off my own current thread: who's to say that golf courses need to be view and played only from ground level? After all, it's a big world.....

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2017, 05:02:07 PM »
For years we have been trying to show golf courses in the best possible manner. Video and photography from ground level does not capture courses as well as the human eye. Perspective, dynamic range and definition are limited.


Live cameras got towers. Still photographers have sought higher shooting points and zooms for a long time.


Moving "structures" were built to cruise along fairways and capture high res photos that could show holes in innovative ways. Courses were then closed for expensive and risky helicopter video.


HDR was invented and perfectioned and pictures started showing a bit more of what the naked eye could see. Many other technical enhancements were introduced.


Drone video, used wisely, at low altitudes, can be used to feature a course inexpensively and safely. As with all technology, abuses can be really bad, but I would love to see low altitude 4K drone imaging of the best courses in the world.


Drones will for sure improve the course design and construction process. They will be good for the environment. They will minimize unnecesary clearing. They will reduce earthworks. They will reduce surveying costs.


We should embrace technology when it works in favor of golf and can be regulated logically. The Goodyear blimp is at risk though.
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I am far more worried about drone implications for privacy around residential areas.


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2017, 06:04:59 PM »
Drones are phenomenal for course mapping and photography.  My son has his commercial drone license (it took over a year to get it) as well has his private pilot's license but his drone license is far more valuable.  What used to cost me $7-10,000 for a scaled flyover of a golf course now costs me next to nothing!  He can do it in less than an hour and it is every bit as accurate as what I used to get from a professional mapping service. 

Gary_Nelson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2017, 08:18:21 PM »
Why are there strong objections to drone photos (aerial view)?    Aren't they similar in purpose to the aerial views drawn by golf architects?




Jonathan Mallard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2017, 08:18:32 PM »
Now if a drone is piloted over the course by someone off property, we can notify authorities because it is a violation of privacy (drone pilots do have regulations to adhere to). 
Is this true?  Is it illegal to take photos/videos of a golf course via drone, without permission?  Can anyone provide more detail on what can/cannot be done? 

For what it's worth, I've seen some incredible drone videos of golf courses (Westhampton CC was the best I've seen yet) that I believe could greatly add to the study of architecture for the professional or enthusiast.  I've also seen some absolutely stunning photos via drone.

Edit:  Adding link to youtube video of Westhampton, which I mentioned above.

https://youtu.be/-QKhntjZWh4


Under current laws, it is not illegal to take photos of private property without permission.  Property owners control the 500' of airspace directly above their land (which is the minimum height that planes are allowed to fly at when not taking off or landing).  Drone flight height is limited to 400' without clearance from the nearest airport (which is really easy to get). 


So, if a property owner doesn't give permission to a drone operator to "enter their airspace" they cannot stop them from moving to an adjacent property, getting permission (if it's privately owned) and taking pictures of their land.  The drone operator could also call the airport, ask for permission to fly at 501' for a few minutes at X location, and go about it that way. 


This is just the legal aspect of it.  The difficulty surrounding actually getting the laws enforced is another issue entirely.  I think you'd have a hard time calling the police and getting them to take you seriously when you tell them that someone has entered your "privately owned airspace".  You'd have an even harder time using the "flying directly over people" argument considering how difficult that would be to prove.


And if they do have tower clearance to fly at 501', the FAA and other folks will get upset if you try and shoot them down.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2017, 10:25:41 PM »
Why are there strong objections to drone photos (aerial view)?    Aren't they similar in purpose to the aerial views drawn by golf architects?


There is a huge difference between an architectural drawing to scale and an amateur drone photo taken from the edge of a property. Objects are rarely closer than they appear.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2017, 10:27:12 PM »
 8)  I don't see the case against drone pics on golf courses, the more views the better, front, side, top, & perspective.    Railing against this technology just seems like ignoring reality, so dream on, its here out of pandora's box and in the famous words of Lee Iacocca, you better "either lead, follow, or get out of the way!"


And seriously, if one ever came close to me, truly affecting my safety, I'd probably be the first to throw a ball or club or shot it to knock it down. Perhaps a personal radio-control jammer could be used?


Insidious??  maybe looking in folks' windows yes, perhaps for wives hunting down their husbands to see if they're really playing golf??
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 10:30:16 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2017, 10:34:22 PM »
Drones like blue jeans can play a vital role during construction. I have yet to hear how either benefit the amateur golfer on a Sunday afternoon.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2017, 10:41:06 PM »
Drones like blue jeans can play a vital role during construction. I have yet to hear how either benefit the amateur golfer on a Sunday afternoon.


that ain't a case for banning them  ::)
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2017, 10:48:17 PM »
Steve,


Do you really want players carrying drones around in the back of their carts launching them willy nilly? I recently was listening to a podcast where a golfer enthusiastically mentioned how he can now take his drone on planes accompanying him on trips. Are we that far from drones being as common as boom boxes. Music I get...drones, I'm not there yet.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2017, 11:06:49 PM »
A former president is a neighbor and there is a one mile no fly zone to my understanding. Would this apply to a drone over my own property? At any height? I can understand security concerns but property rights do collide sometimes.

Ryan Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2017, 02:07:38 AM »
I think I am completely missing the original intention of this thread. WHY the hate Of drone photos? Cause the reasons listed do not seem reasonable (or at least reasonably articulated)


John (who is usually a phenomenal commenter, by the way), suggests that (1) privacy rights are being violated. And (2) questions what architectural merits the photos have. And (3) questions whether such drone photos will be used to gain an unfair advantage for a golfer with blind shots.

To which I respond:

1. This is silly. Are you really suggesting that drone images/video are being used to capture recognizable close-ups of unsuspecting golfers against their will? Are drones really spying on your Sunday round? Has this caused problems for you?

2. Drone images and video provide a phenomenal additional vantage point of golf courses. More information is valuable. And having more photos and videos of golf courses is a positive.

3. Are golfers really using drones to gain unfair advantages on blind shots? I'll buy you a beer (actually, I'll buy you a car) if you've been the victim of a competitor beating you on a blind shot hole because he used a drone to gain an unfair advantage. Come on.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2017, 04:27:21 AM »
This is an interesting discussion as I have already been hit by a crashing drone...what are the odds?  The drone caught a tree, I happened to be nearby and that was that....yes it hurt and yes I was thinking wtf...I am stood here trying to fish and suddenly I am bleeding.  The guy was very apologetic and said he was just learning how to fly the thing...he is a phootgrapher trying to cut costs for aerial photos. 

I am not in the least worried about drones on courses....its the privacy impact when over housing which is far more serious. Drones are already being used to case out houses for burglaries. My brother shot a drone down over his property...with a shotgun...it was that low and invasive.

I think drones could be very useful for supers to keep an eye on tree growth, mowing patterns, bunker and green shapes etc.

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 05:12:20 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2017, 05:02:29 AM »
Our Head Greenkeeper uses a drone to check out the course each morning. It's particularly useful after a night of bad weather to see if there is any damage or areas of flooding.


Once the light mornings arrive he'll be able to do this before he even gets dressed!

Will Spivey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2017, 07:25:19 AM »
Our Head Greenkeeper uses a drone to check out the course each morning. It's particularly useful after a night of bad weather to see if there is any damage or areas of flooding.


Once the light mornings arrive he'll be able to do this before he even gets dressed!


That is a great use of the technology, and one that would never have crossed my mind.


I, for one, like the drone/aerial photos I've seen on this site (Jon Cavalier, take a bow!).  My club recently installed several beautiful photos in our fitness center (the gall!) of our course taken from a drone.  I think they provide great perspective, particularly with respect to scale and directional flow of particular holes.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2017, 10:00:00 AM »
I think I am completely missing the original intention of this thread. WHY the hate Of drone photos? Cause the reasons listed do not seem reasonable (or at least reasonably articulated)


John (who is usually a phenomenal commenter, by the way), suggests that (1) privacy rights are being violated. And (2) questions what architectural merits the photos have. And (3) questions whether such drone photos will be used to gain an unfair advantage for a golfer with blind shots.

To which I respond:

1. This is silly. Are you really suggesting that drone images/video are being used to capture recognizable close-ups of unsuspecting golfers against their will? Are drones really spying on your Sunday round? Has this caused problems for you?

2. Drone images and video provide a phenomenal additional vantage point of golf courses. More information is valuable. And having more photos and videos of golf courses is a positive.

3. Are golfers really using drones to gain unfair advantages on blind shots? I'll buy you a beer (actually, I'll buy you a car) if you've been the victim of a competitor beating you on a blind shot hole because he used a drone to gain an unfair advantage. Come on.


Ryan,


Thanks for the comments. I will try to address:


1. It is not uncommon for me to ask people to not take my picture during a round. I have even had to call security to get photographers removed from public spaces on private property. Neither of these options is available to me because of the anonymous nature of drone usage. I believe that if people want to take pictures of where I may be I deserve the right in return to be able to see their face.


2. So as to eliminate my bias by choosing obviously poor pictures please, or anyone else, post some drone pics on this thread that you think provide anything beyond artistic curiosity and we can discuss their value.


3. Don't underestimate where drone technology will be in 5 years. I'm sure that soon drones will simply fly out of your cell phone and survey whatever may be blind to your land locked position. Kinda like GPS but creepier.

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The case for banning drones..
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2017, 10:12:54 AM »
My brother shot a drone down over his property...with a shotgun...it was that low and invasive.



Best post.

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