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Chris Roselle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« on: February 14, 2017, 09:07:27 AM »
I'd love to see pgatour.com do more features like this.  Great insights imo...

http://www.pgatour.com/news/2017/02/13/riviera-country-club-genesis-open-10th-hole-expert-s-insight-zac-blair.html

Peter Pallotta

Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2017, 10:33:42 AM »
Lovely to see our own Jon C's photos being featured.
Peter

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2017, 01:14:03 PM »
I'd love to see pgatour.com do more features like this.  Great insights imo...


What did you learn about the hole that you didn't know already?  Just curious.


Admittedly, it's a tough hole to have an original observation about, because it has been so thoroughly lionized in recent years.  The one original observation I had about the hole concerned the bunker through the fairway ... and then Tom Marzolf moved the bunker and effed up the trick I had noticed !

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2017, 02:08:35 PM »
I'd love to see pgatour.com do more features like this.  Great insights imo...


What did you learn about the hole that you didn't know already?  Just curious.



In fairness, Tom, we maniacs on this board are probably not the intended audience for educational purposes on an article like this.
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Chris Roselle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2017, 02:34:47 PM »
I'd love to see pgatour.com do more features like this.  Great insights imo...


What did you learn about the hole that you didn't know already?  Just curious.


Admittedly, it's a tough hole to have an original observation about, because it has been so thoroughly lionized in recent years.  The one original observation I had about the hole concerned the bunker through the fairway ... and then Tom Marzolf moved the bunker and effed up the trick I had noticed !

Tom, I guess the only thing I really never thought about (or didn't know for that matter) is the severity of the right to left tilt of green and how that makes attacking a back left hole location so difficult from anywhere right of center.

And Jon Cavalier is probably correct in the fact that maybe this article wasn't so much intended for the learned folks of GCA.  I just think it'd be a cool thing to do when the tour visits more classic tracks like Colonial or Sedgefield.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2017, 02:46:09 PM »

In fairness, Tom, we maniacs on this board are probably not the intended audience for educational purposes on an article like this.


Oh, I understand, the people going to pgatour.com aren't typically going there to read about architecture.  And it's good that they covered a bit.  I just saw the word "insight" and I guess I have a higher standard for that than most people.


Of course, most of the PGA Tour doesn't think of anything as an insight until one of them has said it.

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2017, 02:59:10 PM »

In fairness, Tom, we maniacs on this board are probably not the intended audience for educational purposes on an article like this.

Of course, most of the PGA Tour doesn't think of anything as an insight until one of them has said it.


Also a fair point.
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2017, 05:07:37 PM »

In fairness, Tom, we maniacs on this board are probably not the intended audience for educational purposes on an article like this.


Oh, I understand, the people going to pgatour.com aren't typically going there to read about architecture.  And it's good that they covered a bit.  I just saw the word "insight" and I guess I have a higher standard for that than most people.


Of course, most of the PGA Tour doesn't think of anything as an insight until one of them has said it.


Bitter much? What's this post all about? The notion that this guy wants to develop his own golf course? Seems petty...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2017, 05:40:20 PM »

Bitter much? What's this post all about? The notion that this guy wants to develop his own golf course? Seems petty...


My point was that pretty much anybody on this board could write a piece on the 10th at Riviera -- it is not exactly a controversial hole to praise.  Had he said anything new about it, I'd have been impressed, because it's been so well documented already.


I'm not really a bitter person, and life's been good of late.  I'm just hyper attenuated to marketing as it relates to golf architecture.  I hope Zac gets to build his course, so we can all go see how good it turns out ... until then, it's just all marketing.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2017, 05:51:00 PM »
JES - I had a different reaction, one that I've had before whenever the terms options and choices get tossed around. Here is perhaps the greatest short Par 4 in all of golf, and certainly one of the most famous examples in the world of greatness in strategic design, and what I learned in reading about the 10th at Riviera is...(drum roll) ...that I can either try to drive the hole, or lay up with a long iron.
Hmm. Ran should probably kick me off gca.com for saying this, but if that's the kind and degree of *choice* that I'm being offered and is being praised as the height of genius I think I'd rather have a waterfall, or even just a pond...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 05:53:14 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2017, 06:14:47 PM »
PS -
Have you noticed over the years that Tom D's most sought after result and highest praise is *cool golf holes*? That's very telling, I think. When a top architect is talking about his *own* golf holes, he almost never talks about strategic/penal design, just about *engaging* design. It's as if there are no rules at all for great gca; and as if trying to ensure choices and options and even strategy would be just another kind of rule. The 10th seems to be a very cool golf hole; why burden it down with more 'weight' than that?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 06:21:19 PM by Peter Pallotta »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2017, 07:47:55 PM »
Tom,


Do you think Zac is marketing his GCA mind to potential clients?


Do you think it's unreasonable to view your initial Confidential Guide as, at least partly, marketing?




Peter,


Quite simply, choices are the key component of "cool". In other words, the absence of options would be the definitive absence of "cool".


By the way, choices don't have to be drastic club selection differences for a single player...but rather approaches to completing a hole.




All, obviously in my humble opinion...

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2017, 09:03:53 AM »
JES - I had a different reaction, one that I've had before whenever the terms options and choices get tossed around. Here is perhaps the greatest short Par 4 in all of golf, and certainly one of the most famous examples in the world of greatness in strategic design, and what I learned in reading about the 10th at Riviera is...(drum roll) ...that I can either try to drive the hole, or lay up with a long iron.
Hmm. Ran should probably kick me off gca.com for saying this, but if that's the kind and degree of *choice* that I'm being offered and is being praised as the height of genius I think I'd rather have a waterfall, or even just a pond...


If you think those are the only two options on the tee, driver or lay up with a long iron, then you really don't know the hole well.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2017, 09:52:30 AM »
What I like is that Zac seems to have genuine appreciation of architecture and classic courses that seems to be somewhat rare among tour pros.


I have heard several stories where he has played a pro-am or a practice round at a tournament site and then went to a classic course in that area.


He was recently on The Fried Egg podcast and his excitement about the old dead guys is very real.


I would rather applaud that than find a way to be critical.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2017, 10:01:07 AM »
What I like is that Zac seems to have genuine appreciation of architecture and classic courses that seems to be somewhat rare among tour pros.


I have heard several stories where he has played a pro-am or a practice round at a tournament site and then went to a classic course in that area.


He was recently on The Fried Egg podcast and his excitement about the old dead guys is very real.


I would rather applaud that than find a way to be critical.


I agree with you 100% on the above, Jeff. I don't know all that much about him personally, but from what I have seen and heard he seems really into classic golf course architecture, which is all good with me.
H.P.S.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2017, 10:15:14 AM »
I've never met Zac, and I don't have a problem with Zac.


My problem is that I've had a ton of guys [and a couple of women] who have worked for me and been trying to pursue a career in golf architecture for 5, 10, or even 25 years, who get less recognition for it than when a PGA Tour player rolls out of bed and says he'd like to be an architect. 


Hell, Eric Iverson has been working at this for as long as Zac's been alive, and he could go out and build an entire course by himself if he wanted to -- he could even put in the irrigation.  And he knows a fair bit about the 10th at Riviera, too ... it's just that nobody is quoting him about it.


As they say on the PGA Tour, I'm just trying to protect the field.

Will MacEwen

Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2017, 10:23:49 AM »
I've never met Zac, and I don't have a problem with Zac.


My problem is that I've had a ton of guys [and a couple of women] who have worked for me and been trying to pursue a career in golf architecture for 5, 10, or even 25 years, who get less recognition for it than when a PGA Tour player rolls out of bed and says he'd like to be an architect. 



Categorizing him as someone who "rolls out of bed and says he'd like to be an architect" seems to be at odds with not having a problem with him.


Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2017, 10:27:15 AM »
Honest question: Say I have 300 acres and want to build a golf course on it. Do I hire Rob Collins or Tom Doak? Doesn't this pretty much come down to a marketing decision?

BCowan

Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2017, 10:39:57 AM »
I'm just fortunate that my parents taught me that life isn't fair.  I also don't care for Death of a salesman ideology  ;) .  I love how WPJ told most investors of courses he designed that it was the best piece of land he had ever seen. 

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2017, 10:50:40 AM »
Honest question: Say I have 300 acres and want to build a golf course on it. Do I hire Rob Collins or Tom Doak? Doesn't this pretty much come down to a marketing decision?


Depends on your goals. Wolf Point wasn't built for any conventionl reasoning, but I imagine it would survive many theoretical business models because of it's quality of design and construction. Playing the safety cards isn't always the way to go. And, I know for a fact that you already know these things.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Adam Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2017, 12:49:53 PM »
Yeah....TD has no problem with him at all.  ;)

Ever since it came out that he said he could do the course himself without having to spend the money on a big architect TD has been railing on Zac.

In case you weren't aware, in the world of business people get jobs and duties even though they may not be the next person in line for the job.

Also, its not like Zac was handed a job to build a course for someone.  It's kind of his brain child and he has some other people that have hopped in along the way.  Why not celebrate that the guy wants to go out and do what he can do, basically from his own doing?  How many other modern guys have done anything like that?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2017, 04:32:09 PM »
Yeah....TD has no problem with him at all.  ;)

Ever since it came out that he said he could do the course himself without having to spend the money on a big architect TD has been railing on Zac.

In case you weren't aware, in the world of business people get jobs and duties even though they may not be the next person in line for the job.


Of course, I'm quite aware of that.  Lots of people in the business thought I was pretty cheeky [being nice to myself there] to start designing something on my own when I was so young, and had "only" worked on construction sites for four years out of college.  I've got no problem with anyone going and doing a job they can get.  And I'm only going to judge Zac on the results.


My response here was really, truly, not about Zac Blair.  I apologize to him here directly if he thinks that's the case.  It was just about how easy it is for a golf pro to get attention for talking about design, vs. how hard it is for most other people in the business.  Life's not fair at all, but I was speaking for all the people who want to do this without that advantage, having started from there myself.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2017, 04:39:43 PM »
Tom,


Do you think Zac is marketing his GCA mind to potential clients?


Do you think it's unreasonable to view your initial Confidential Guide as, at least partly, marketing?



To your first question, I don't know him or his motivations.  But I'd certainly bet that the article started by him or his agent approaching whoever runs the Tour's web site and asking to be on there, because that's how most of the press works.  I started writing about architecture for GOLF Magazine when I was 18, for exactly that reason ... to have a voice, when nobody knew who I was.


To your second question, no, the initial Confidential Guide was not about marketing.  It was a useful book that I gave away to 40 people who'd helped me along; I didn't expect it to go beyond that, and I actually asked them to keep it a secret.  By the time I published the limited edition of 1,000, yes, that was about marketing ... I'd had a lot of advice from people in the business that it would be good for my career, in spite of the controversy it might cause.  But that wasn't why I wrote it to begin with.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2017, 04:54:11 PM »
Honest question: Say I have 300 acres and want to build a golf course on it. Do I hire Rob Collins or Tom Doak? Doesn't this pretty much come down to a marketing decision?


Honest answer:  It's a marketing decision, to the degree that YOU think it should be.


Certainly there are lots of developers who think in terms of marketing first.  Years ago, I put in a bid to design a third course for the big resort in my hometown, and since I knew they were driven by marketing considerations, we made a joint proposal with Davis Love and company.  But the owners chose their designer by polling the meeting planners who booked big groups in there on the names who had expressed interest, and Gary Player won!  [And they robbed us of the chance to see what a Tom Doak / Paul Cowley collaboration would've looked like.]


I would guess that most people hanging out on Golf Club Atlas are going to think beyond the marketing angle and try to decide whom they'd like to work with.  Some would compare me and Rob Collins, and go with the personality they get along with better.  Some would take the less expensive guy -- or the underdog, to prove how smart they are for being ahead of the curve.  Others would go with the more expensive guy because they think their track record must prove something.  Or they'd be too scared to take a chance on somebody even if they really like him better, because they've got a lot of money at stake, in a business they don't know all that well.  Only the rare few would just go with who they thought was the better designer, with no other consideration.


I would love to believe that everyone who hires me really thinks I'm the best designer, but I know everyone has their own reasons.  In fact, one reason I don't mind controversy is that when people do look past it to hire me, I feel like they must really be interested in the work I'm doing, and that gives me a bit more freedom in my designs.


So, no, it isn't always just about marketing, and it isn't always about the money.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2017, 05:20:20 PM »
Tom,


How, if any, do the criteria and considerations that the decision maker(s) for restorations/renovations differ from those of developers of new courses?


How do your criteria and considerations for bidding on or accepting a restoration/renovation project differ?


Ira