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Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2017, 07:03:24 PM »
I'm really surprised by the reaction to Zac's article. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why anyone would take issue with a pro talking GCA in a mainstream forum. But I do want to make two quick points:


First, I think we often lose sight of how differently on this board think about golf. We are the outliers. So while we read an article from a pro about the 10th at Riviera and respond by thinking, "what else is new," the vast majority of the golfing public does not. The majority only sees or thinks about a hole like the 10th at Riviera for four days a year, and most have no idea why the hole is so famous other than what they hear on TV. So what may seem basic or elementary to us is most assuredly not to the target audience.


Second, I don't understand the attitude for what Zac is trying to do with The Buck Club. It's not like he's out there marketing himself as an architect, bidding for jobs and saying, "hire me to build your course, not that guy, I've actually played the game at the highest level!" He's not taking work from anyone who has put in their 25 years. He has a dream to build his own course and doesn't want to farm out the work. So what? That doesn't take away a single thing from those who are the true experts in the area - those who, I might add, Zac seems very interested in studying and learning from.


Bottom line, I just cannot fathom how it could be a bad thing for those of us interested in this stuff to have other high profile people out there talking about it.
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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2017, 07:10:32 PM »


Here's a question that has never been asked.  If I had to choose either Bill Coore or Ben Crenshaw to design a course who would it be?  I's nothing personal toward either fellow....and it could be both would be good...







Mike - Rather than choose one or the other, I'd be interested to hear who you think made the better move in partnering with the other...

Jim,
If I answer that will you answer my question?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Blake Conant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2017, 07:12:07 PM »
Why isn't anyone up and arms about TIGER WOODS building the Muni course in Chicago taking away from up and coming archie?  Double standard I'd say.


I believe Beau Welling Design out of Asheville does Tiger's design work.  He may have a designer who works under the TWD umbrella as well.  Carry on.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2017, 07:14:12 PM »
Why isn't anyone up and arms about TIGER WOODS building the Muni course in Chicago taking away from up and coming archie?  Double standard I'd say.


I believe Beau Welling Design out of Asheville does Tiger's design work.  He may have a designer who works under the TWD umbrella as well.  Carry on.

I have more concern for Eddie Bauer buidling that Ford Expedition.... ;D ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2017, 07:24:55 PM »
Mike - it's Bill Coore for me on both questions.

BCowan

Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2017, 07:40:34 PM »
Why isn't anyone up and arms about TIGER WOODS building the Muni course in Chicago taking away from up and coming archie?  Double standard I'd say.


I believe Beau Welling Design out of Asheville does Tiger's design work.  He may have a designer who works under the TWD umbrella as well.  Carry on.


Blake,


    I don't understand the difference, how's is Zaks dad doing construction for Zaks course any different then BWD doing construction/design for Tiger? 


 Are u listening to CSNY tonight?  I'm a fan.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 05:45:49 AM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2017, 08:57:38 PM »
Here's a question for everyone on this board, do you want the popularity of golf course architecture to grow?


... 

 Zac and other Tour players that show interest in golf course architecture will only lead to good things for other architects. They can be a platform to advocate renovating courses to make them more playable and thought provoking.

This thread is a microcosm of one of the problems with golf course architecture. Very few that are educated on the subject have the patience or desire to help educate the average fan who doesn't understand the basics.

People can't enjoy if they don't understand and articles like the one that Zac wrote regarding the 10th at Riviera did an excellent job of explaining why the hole is good to the average fan. It wasn't written for you, it was written for the regular golfer.



Andy:  Okay, a couple of questions for you:


1.  Name three Tour pros in history who have elevated the discussion of golf course architecture, without charging several million dollars in architectural fees themselves.  Heck, name one.  Zac could be completely different, but if so, he'll be an outlier.


2.  How does this one article elevate the discussion any more than any of the articles you or I have written over the years, just because a PGA Tour professional wrote it?  Because people pay more attention to anything a Tour pro says, no matter the subject?


The part about "Very few that are educated on the subject have the patience or desire to help educate the average fan who doesn't understand the basics" also rang a bit hollow with me, since any of us in the business who participate on this board sometimes have to display a great deal of patience.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2017, 09:29:02 PM »
Hogan.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2017, 09:45:02 PM »
Tom,


In your question #1 to Andy: Why does monetary value enter into the discussion, in your mind? Does the elevation of architectural discussion improve as the cost goes down?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Andy Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2017, 10:24:13 PM »





Andy:  Okay, a couple of questions for you:


1.  Name three Tour pros in history who have elevated the discussion of golf course architecture, without charging several million dollars in architectural fees themselves.  Heck, name one.  Zac could be completely different, but if so, he'll be an outlier.


2.  How does this one article elevate the discussion any more than any of the articles you or I have written over the years, just because a PGA Tour professional wrote it?  Because people pay more attention to anything a Tour pro says, no matter the subject?


The part about "Very few that are educated on the subject have the patience or desire to help educate the average fan who doesn't understand the basics" also rang a bit hollow with me, since any of us in the business who participate on this board sometimes have to display a great deal of patience.



[size=78%]Let's look at the start of this discussion: "[/size]I'd love to see pgatour.com do more features like this.  Great insights imo..."
This is where we need to focus. All Chris was saying wow, its great that a preeminent mainstream media source, an organization that regularly shows ZERO interest in golf course architecture did a feature on the architectural significance of a golf hole. That's a big deal. Why?


Because they reach millions of golfers, I bet that this article was read by more people than the 50+ posts that i have devoted to the subject of golf courses & architecture on my site.


The only reason that this story happened and that golf course architecture was put in front of the general golfing public was because of Zac's interest in architecture and design. In talking with some folks at the Tour, this could become a regular weekly feature.


Zac has no website about his design philosophies, no grand plans of becoming an architect outside of building his dream course. That might change but right now he is a 26-year-old kid that is trying to be a great player on the PGA Tour.


If he builds his dream course he will take ZERO jobs away from you or any other great young architects, because without his dream there is no job. My guess is that eventually he will enlist the help of someone.


Tom, don't you charge copious amounts of money for designs?


I understand that you had to work your way up the ladder and earned your status as a golf course architect the hard way but that is true about the vast majority of professions.


It's not fair that a PGA Tour player has an advantage cracking into your industry because of their name brand, but that is not the focal point here.  The focus should be on someone who expresses a genuine love of the courses & the type of architecture that is lauded on this site and who, as a result of his passion, is atypical in his profession as a young Tour player. Whether you agree or disagree with his philosophies and beliefs, there is no arguing that he is good for broadening the interest in the subject.


Right now, I know for a fact that Zac has elevated awareness and brought new fans into golf course architecture and he has earned $0 doing so.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2017, 11:27:16 PM »
Gosh this thread has legs....

1500 people is considered "nobody" in golf.  So it is safe to say that nobody really cares about golf architecture as the few on this site are really the only ones who do.  And even this site gets to where it believes it's ownself.  I'm not condemning it, jut saying take it for what it is...a boutique...
People go for marketing and being told what they like.  Most people would listen to Chuck Leavell discuss a Yamaha piano and take his opinion over a Rachmaninoff discussing a Bosendorfer.  And all because he played in a few big rock bands and was known.  Hell most would not even know what a Bosendorfer was.  Same goes for golf teachers...All that matters to the public is marketing...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2017, 11:32:42 PM »
Tom,


In your question #1 to Andy: Why does monetary value enter into the discussion, in your mind?


Andy's previous post had stated that Tour players' interest in architecture would lead to work (and pay) for professional architects, rather than themselves.  I just couldn't think of an example of one who hadn't eventually cashed in, and made more in doing so than 80-90% of architects ever make.


However, Andy is correct that Zac Blair has yet to try to cash in.  I didn't mean to imply that he would, only that it would be rare of he doesn't.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2017, 11:40:50 PM »
Andy:  thanks for your response. Everything you said is fair.  Of course the Tour could write more about architecture any time they wanted; there are plenty of freelance golf writers who would welcome the opportunity.

Brad Treadwell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2017, 12:07:34 AM »
So......anyone notice the nice birdie Zac made on 10 from a little long left today? 


Just trying to break the silence in the room ;)


Early running for thread of the year!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2017, 12:50:15 AM »
As an aside, I'd like to share a story of why I might be a bit cynical about Tour players as designers, which has absolutely nothing to do with Zac Blair.


When I worked for Mr. Dye, in 1984, he had me come out for a walk-through of the new TPC at Connecticut, which he was rebuilding from an existing course.  Pete knew I'd grown up in Connecticut, and he knew that Commissioner Beman was another of the people who had recommended me for my scholarship to Scotland, so it was thoughtful of him to include me to write up a report on the day, and do any follow-up drawings if necessary.  And it was a very nice day, walking the course with Pete and the Commissioner and David Postlethwait [Pete's construction foreman] and Vernon Kelly, the g.m. of the Tour, and listening to their discussions, and occasionally being asked my opinion.


At the end of the walk-through, on the heels of a long discussion about the location of the cart path on the 18th, the Commissioner asked Vernon Kelly to see if Howard Twitty could come up and walk through our recommendations.  He did that, because those are the politics of the Tour ... Howard Twitty was on the Tour Policy Board, and the Commissioner had to be seen as engaging the players in the design of TPC courses, even though it was abundantly clear that all the decisions had already been made.


Even at 23, it struck me as pretty silly that the joint decisions of Mr. Dye and Commissioner Beman and David Postlethwait had to be rubber stamped by Howard Twitty.  In hindsight, I think most people would agree.  But that's how the Tour works, and that's why I take their p.r. with a grain of salt.


Meanwhile, I will attempt to contact Zac Blair to apologize if he's been offended by anything I've said here.  It hasn't been personal, however you guys have tried to make it out to be.  If anyone has an email for him, please send it to me. 

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2017, 03:11:31 AM »
I'm really surprised by the reaction to Zac's article. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why anyone would take issue with a pro talking GCA in a mainstream forum. But I do want to make two quick points:


First, I think we often lose sight of how differently on this board think about golf. We are the outliers. So while we read an article from a pro about the 10th at Riviera and respond by thinking, "what else is new," the vast majority of the golfing public does not. The majority only sees or thinks about a hole like the 10th at Riviera for four days a year, and most have no idea why the hole is so famous other than what they hear on TV. So what may seem basic or elementary to us is most assuredly not to the target audience.


Second, I don't understand the attitude for what Zac is trying to do with The Buck Club. It's not like he's out there marketing himself as an architect, bidding for jobs and saying, "hire me to build your course, not that guy, I've actually played the game at the highest level!" He's not taking work from anyone who has put in their 25 years. He has a dream to build his own course and doesn't want to farm out the work. So what? That doesn't take away a single thing from those who are the true experts in the area - those who, I might add, Zac seems very interested in studying and learning from.


Bottom line, I just cannot fathom how it could be a bad thing for those of us interested in this stuff to have other high profile people out there talking about it.


+1


Tom D,


James Braid was mainly a golf professional who also did GCA. I do not think he was too shabby at course design and think he was worth his fee. If the quality of the work is good enough then I see no reason why a golf professional should not charge.


Jon
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 01:54:21 PM by Jon Wiggett »

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2017, 08:43:26 AM »
I enjoyed Zac's insight into the 10th at Riviera. The perspective a professional golfer who understands and appreciates architecture is always welcome.


I think preaching the message of sound golf course architecture in any forum should be welcomed. Just because the message is out there does not mean that everyone who should see it has. There is also nothing wrong with repeating the message since a significant majority of television golf announcers don't understand sound architecture or don't appreciate and that means they are delivering the wrong message to their audience.


Why anyone would criticize the efforts of the PGA Tour or Zac to enlighten the masses is incomprehensible to me. It's like saying since an the Surgeon General,  has warned everyone about the dangers of smoking there is no need for the rest the non-experts to keep repeating it.


Looking forward to playing The Buck Club.


Anthony

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2017, 12:59:48 PM »
Zac is currently T3 at Riviera

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #69 on: February 17, 2017, 02:22:42 PM »
Played the 10th -1 through first two rounds!

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #70 on: February 17, 2017, 04:33:17 PM »
Mike - it's Bill Coore for me on both questions.

We agree.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2017, 07:26:46 PM »
Here's my question: what's the hole like, on the ground? I'd like to hear from those who


A) have played it once and how they would play it the second time;


B) have played it more than five times, and what their multiple playings tell them;


C) have walked it at the tournament, but not played it, and what they see from the sidelines


If you've only seen it on television, as I have, please offer nothing.


Ron,


I would fall into category C.


A few things that struck me about the hole upon seeing it in person after only having previously seen pictures or watched TV ...


- It's more downhill than I had suspected.


- The green slope is even more severe than pictures/TV make it out to be. In particular there's a big hump in the front middle of the green that is really a brutal feature.


- A surprising number of pros not only miss right but miss so far right that they end up in the greenside bunker for the alternate green. You're just unbelievably dead over there.


- There's less room for a layup than you'd think. That short bunker is very intimidating, but unless you go way left it is very possible to hit a layup into a bunker long of the fairway. So if you're laying up you have to pick a club carefully and hit a solid shot.


- Laying up, which I had always kind of believed to be the best option for most people (not necessarily Tour players) is really only a feasible for front pins. From the layup spot, you're not really looking straight down the entire length of the green. The green bends a bit around that front bunker (and is narrower in the back) so a wedge from the layup spot to a back pin is an incredibly tough shot. If the pin is toward the front, I think the layup from the tee is a reasonable play. But if the pin is back, man that's a tough hole. You might lay up off the tee and still need to hit something of a 'lay up' wedge into a spot where you can actually go toward the pin.


- There's no question the hole isn't what it was when it was built (or even what it was when Thomas decided to add the greenside bunkers later on). All over the course, the bunkers are flashed up much higher than what you see in old photos. This has probably exacerbated the slope in the green. My first impression in watching some groups play the hole was that some kind of change was needed--either flattening the green a bit or enlarging it. But the more I watched, the more I came to think that the brilliance of the hole is that it's not what you expect. 315 yards and doesn't even play that long, sure. But not a birdie hole. Most drivable and/or short par 4s are assumed to be birdie holes. A good drive and two putts or a decent drive and a good chip and you've got a great chance at 3. Not so here. 10 is a tough hole. A short par 4 that often plays over par even for the great fields of the LA Open (on Thursday of this week I believe it played to something like 4.2). In the end, I came away thinking that's a part of the hole's brilliance--it's a short 4, but not necessarily a birdie hole.

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2017, 04:49:30 PM »
Blair played the 10th -1 for the tournament, 3 pars and a birdie. Not sure what the scoring average is for the hole.

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2017, 09:25:02 PM »
Blair played the 10th -1 for the tournament, 3 pars and a birdie. Not sure what the scoring average is for the hole.


Hole played 3.873 for the week. Played easier than it normally does because of all the rain.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett