[MCirba]

How many great Up and Over holes exist?  Are any still being built?


They would be holes with a steeply uphill blind tee shot that then descends from the landing zone and a progressively downhill lie to a green that tends to accept a running approach but continues to fall away from the player.


A few come immediately to mind in the Philly/NY area.  The 4th at Pine Valley, 18 at Merion East, 16 at Stonewall, 2 at NGLA for starters.


What are some other, well known or otherwise?  What are some of the attributes that make them work well when they do?


Are there any great up and over par fives? 


I really enjoy them greatly when they work and i'd like to better understand why.  Thanks!

[Joe Hancock]

Mike,


I don't have your answer, but that type of hole must be like Kryptonite to the designers that have had the chance to move heaven and earth to build whatever they want....I'm thinking places like Chambers Bay, Ferry Point, Bayonne.....

[Tom_Doak]

I like these holes but I find it hard to make myself route them.


Stonewall is a major exception; the 13th, 14th and 16th of the Old course and the 3rd, 11th and 12th of the North course are all up-and-over.  On the Old course the reason for this is a buried natural gas line that runs across the holes near the landing area, preventing us from thinking about doing any earthwork.


The 4th at Royal Melbourne West is the ultimate up and over hole ... and the inspiration for the 3rd at Stonewall North, and the 12th at Tara Iti.

[MCirba]

Tom,


Why the reluctance?


The holes you mentioned are a big part of why I love those courses.  3 at Stonewall North is awesome and inspiring.


The Nicklaus/Fazio mode of visibility and "everything laid out in front of you" is such a yawn-inducing way to negotiate/walk/play across a property.


P.s.  the 10th at Renaissance Club is a less severe version, yes?

[corey miller]

#4 Merion immediately pops into my head but since I know your fondness for the course I assume you are throwing it out because of the water and lack of "running" shot.

My choice with a grand view to boot is #5 at New South Wales

[Jon Cavalier]

The 16th at Stonewall Old was the first that came to mind for me. It's my favorite second shot on the property.


The 18th at Yale is most definitely up and over, but the green doesn't fall away from the player as you describe.


How about the 11th at Eastward Ho, the 12th at Old Town Club, or the 7th at Myopia Hunt.

[MCirba]

Good ones Jon and Corey!


Any par fives yet?

[MClutterbuck]

How many great Up and Over holes exist?  Are any still being built?


They would be holes with a steeply uphill blind tee shot that then descends from the landing zone and a progressively downhill lie to a green that tends to accept a running approach but continues to fall away from the player.


A few come immediately to mind in the Philly/NY area.  The 4th at Pine Valley, 18 at Merion East, 16 at Stonewall, 2 at NGLA for starters.


What are some other, well known or otherwise?  What are some of the attributes that make them work well when they do?


Are there any great up and over par fives? 


I really enjoy them greatly when they work and i'd like to better understand why.  Thanks!

How steep do these have to be to qualify? Just enough to create blindness? What if the green does not continue to run away as much?

[corey miller]

Both of mine #4 Merion and #5 NSW are par 5

Yale #18? another par 5 but don't remember how far real golfers hit the ball off the tee there.

[Scott Warren]

MCirba,

Two par fives that immediately came to mind are #5 at New South Wales GC and #6 at Worplesdon GC.

[Jon Cavalier]

Good ones Jon and Corey!


Any par fives yet?

11 at Eastward Ho, 18 at Yale and 3 at Stonewall North are par-5s.

[Garland Bayley]

The first hole that came to mind was #7 at Langdon Farms, Aurora, OR (Fought/Cupp). Par 5 558/512/484. Reachable in two by a younger version of myself. Drive over the hill, then hit long downhill approach. Only played there once, but downhill approach cut and missed left. Was playing in a scramble. We used my drive and approach, and teammates garnered a birdie. It looks as though they reversed 9s since I played there as it was #16 when I played.


As I recall, the holes were somewhat replica holes, complete with church pew bunker. However, I can't find any info on the replica holes online.



Slopes may not be as steep as you described,

[Matthew Petersen]

I seem to recall such a hole at Morrish/Weiskopf's The Rim Club in Prescott AZ. It's the 7th hole (I think). Blind drive up and over a hill (there's an aiming rock) and once over the hill, the rest of the hole tumbles downhill, though there's a creek crossing the fairway at a certain point.

[Thomas Dai]

The par-4 9th at Narin & Portnoo is, as Frank Carson would say, "a cracker".


From the top of the rise looking back to the peninsula style 9th tee (and the 8th green)



Looking back from behind the 9th green towards the ridge that must be played over.



Atb

[Scott Champion]

Examples of 'up and over' holes that also have fall away greens is a little tougher. A couple others that come to mind are Elie's 10th and Royal Melbourne East's 5th, both shortish par 4's. I really enjoy fall away greens and feel they help place a greater emphasis on the angle and type of approach shot needing to be played. These two are both really fun to play running shots into watching how the ball reacts.

Aerial view of Elie 10th from the Club website.


Another hole that features a double "up and over" is the par 5 10th at Newcastle (in my favourite 2 or 3 holes at Newcastle. Ran has a good description of the hole in his review on this site). It has the feature on the drive and assuming you have made it over the top, on the second shot as well.
[Also note the sandy waste areas that they have developed since the photo of the 10th in Ran's review].

Newcastle 10th - tee shot


View from the top of the 1st ridge that the drive is played over.


View from the top of the 2nd ridge with the approach usually played blind over this dune.

[MCirba]

Brain slip on the par fives Jon, thanks.


Thought of an awesome one overight.  13 at Pine Valley.


Also, a favorite of Kyle Harris and Joe Bausch, the 2nd hole at Galen Hall.



Keep em coming!

[jeffwarne]

The Nicklaus/Fazio mode of visibility and "everything laid out in front of you" is such a yawn-inducing way to negotiate/walk/play across a property.

Other than safety/pace of play reasons, I couldn't agree more.
Periscopes and/or bells are a creative solution to this.


Few things more exciting in golf then cresting the hill to see the result on a new course,
or hearing your buddy say how screwed he was by his "perfect" drive that you both knew was dead the moment it left the club.
Particularly exciting are up over holes to a hogback fairway

[Mike Hendren]

The 6th at Gold Mountain's Olympic Course is an up and over par 5.  All in all, an awkward hole.

Mike

[MCirba]

Other than safety/pace of play reasons, I couldn't agree more.
Periscopes and/or bells are a creative solution to this.


Few things more exciting in golf then cresting the hill to see the result on a new course,
or hearing your buddy say how screwed he was by his "perfect" drive that you both knew was dead the moment it left the club.
Particularly exciting are up over holes to a hogback fairway

Jeff,

Completely agreed.   As more examples are cited, I keep thinking about the excitement/adventure factor of these type of holes.

The sense of the unknown is compelling, even on multiple plays.

[MCirba]

How steep do these have to be to qualify? Just enough to create blindness? What if the green does not continue to run away as much?

MClutterbuck,

I'm not sure I have a particular elevation change number in mind but I think some of the most dramatic ones cited have a pretty hefty lift associated with them.   For instance, I'd guess that the elevation change on the 4th at Pine Valley is somewhere around 45 feet from tee to top of the landing area.   Does that sound about right to folks? 

The finishing hole at Merion is probably about 30 or so feet.   If I get a chance today I may check out some topos to get a better sense but would enjoy hearing from others in terms of how high one has to go "up" to get "over". 

Thanks!

**EDIT** - I'll add a few pics I found lying around the Internet.

The 4th at Pine Valley - source http://www.graylynloomis.com/pine-valley-2/



The 13th at Pine Valley - same source



The 4th at Merion - The Bausch Collection  http://myphillygolf.com/gallery.asp



The 2nd at Galen Hall - The Bausch Collection







The 18th at Yale - Bausch Collection

[Chris Roselle]

How about the 18th at Gulph Mills GC?  Relatively short for today's par 5 standards but one of my favorite finishing holes in Philly.

[Richard Fisher]

Would Hunstanton's 12th qualify? The 14th at Hunny is a terrific up-and-over blind par three, complete with oscillator (rather than bell) but the 12th, a mid-range 360 yard par four, uses similar terrain and calls for a very precise 2nd shot. Both traverse the dune ridge that runs through the centre of the links, as does the famous 13th with its semi-blind 2nd to a sunken green.

[Kyle Harris]

The 8th at Huntingdon Valley (Up, Over, Up)
The aforementioned 2nd at Galen Hall (Up, Over, DOOOOOOOOOOWN)
The 9th at Streamsong Blue (Up, Over, doooooooooooooooooown)
The 10th at Streamsong Red (Up, Over, Tumble 'round)
The lovely 6th at Jeffersonville (Up, Around, Over, Down)

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Why the reluctance?

Mike:


It's not so much a reluctance, as I just don't see them so easily.


I tend to route a course by looking for sight lines -- on paper, as well as when I'm out walking the site.  In either case, it doesn't normally occur to me to go "up and over" that hill, when I can't see what the result will be, if there is another obvious green site beckoning in the distance, clearly visible.  I have to train myself to look for that; it's not natural to me.  I'm always surprised that Bill Coore usually includes one or two in his routings, because he finds them on foot, and they never seem obvious on foot!


I probably would never have come up with the 3rd at Stonewall if that hill hadn't been such an awkward distance from the road and from another drop off.  Not going over the hill would have limited that nine holes to a bunch of 300- or 350-yard holes playing up and down its slope.  [Luckily, I thought of the 4th at Royal Melbourne at the right moment.]  Indeed, it's the same for the Old Course ... with a tight acreage and Route 345 only 250-300 yards from the top of the hill, Tom Fazio didn't have any choice but to have some up and over holes if he wanted to use that end of the property, and he needed it to get 18 holes.


I have built more of these holes than I realized in my initial post.  The 17th at Dismal River (Red) is one of my favorites.  The sixth at Medinah #1.  The 9th at Streamsong, as Kyle mentioned; also the 6th and the 18th.  The 3rd and 4th at Old Macdonald.  The sixth at Sebonack.  The 16th at Ballyneal.  The 13th at St. Andrews Beach, which Aussies are still complaining about!  The 4th at Cape Kidnappers.  And the 9th at Pacific Dunes, if you play to the lower green.


There are many more up and over holes that are classics, if you don't have to have the fallaway green as part of the package.  The one I'm surprised no one has mentioned is the 8th at Pebble Beach.

[MCirba]

Tom,

Thanks for that recap and explanation of the routing process.    I thought you had done more than a few and I seem to recall one at Beechtree, sadly NLE.

Here's the tee shot at Stonewall North #3, courtesy of the Bausch Collection taken last winter.   It is one of my very favorite holes on the property.



Kyle,

Good ones!  Thanks.

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