[Marty Bonnar]

?'s:


Is it cool for the Tour to schedule tournaments on it in January?
Why not just play on courses with cool season grasses this time of year?
Does it look good?
Does it play good?
What does Jock average think?
What does it say about the sustainability of golf course agronomic practices?


F.

[jeffwarne]

If you play golf on cool season grasses this time of year--you'd be playing in a winter climate this time of year.
In the US that would generally mean bitter cold in January.


Generally, if you see green, they actually are playing on a winter season grass overseed (rye) on the fairways and the greens would either be bermuda or bent (less likely to overseed greens these days)


Dormant bermuda plays great and the rough is much less penal but still tricky

[Richard Hetzel]

I love seeing the brown and green contrast, I think it is much more visually appealing to my eye. Unfortunately, it also reminds me of the extremely poor decision I made to move back to Ohio from South Carolina where I cannot play golf in the winter time.

[Pete Lavallee]

Dormant Bermuda over seeded with Rye panders to the retail golfer, i.e., the ones who pays the dues. Better players and gca crackpots would relish the tight lies that dormant Burmuda provides. The good news there is that the course would be uncrowded, but only a step away from bankruptcy. We see it time and again, golfers spend a fortune to play off the tight lies of Links courses in Scotland but refuse to accept those conditions here in the USA. Although the perception that golfers in the US love the color green I think it's the cushion that green grass provides that makes it truly popular.

[Scott Warren]

Having spent the past six years on couch that goes dormant in the winter, I genuinely believe it's the best grass other than fescue to play on.

[Anthony_Nysse]

  It's too much of a risk for the tour to play an event on dormant bermudagrass, particular the fairways. Potential for a lot of white paint and/or thin areas. That's why you see overseed on courses that are hosting the events in locations where it would go dormant-Torrey Pines, Scottsdale, Palm Springs, Bay Hill, Harbour Town and of course, AGNC.
   For example-Eagle Point in Wilmington, NC, home of this years Wells Fargo is overseeded. They do not typically seed, but are filling in for Quail Hollow.
  Colonial is one of the first courses on the schedule that the Tour plays on where the bermudagrass goes dormant and the tour plays on it as the grass has come out of dormancy. We would have to push and push and push to get the Bermuda filled in and the rough up for the event with fertilizer applications every 5-6 days as we got closer to the event.

[Matt_Cohn]

?'s:


Is it cool for the Tour to schedule tournaments on it in January?
Does it play good?

The problem of course is that dormant grass doesn't grow back. Divots don't grow back, worn areas don't grow back, washed-out areas don't grow back, trafficked areas don't grow back, areas that weren't good at the end of the growing season don't grow back...


Depending what you started with, it's not a bad playing surface. If you started with healthy fairways and some of the newer bermuda fairway grasses that are nice and tight, it would be pretty good through the winter, but again without any regrowth of divots, etc. If you started with coarser common bermuda, and then it gets beaten down and washed out a little, it kind of sucks.

[SB]

Plus, while dry dormant bermuda is a nice playing surface, soaked dormant bermuda is not.  More like mud than grass.

[archie_struthers]

Marty I'm not a big fan of dormant Bermuda in locales where it isn't indigenous. Really meaning  I'm not in favor of using it in areas other than the south!


While I'm not addressing the over seeding issue , many have tried to use the quick regeneration and toughness of Bermuda outside its normal home. Eb Steiniger  , legendary superintendent at Pine Valley , experimented with zoysia way back in the sixties in search of a super grass with such tendencies. We have tried Bermuda hybrids here at Greate Bay (mid -Atlantic jersey shore) with mixed results at best on some tees and the practice range.
In the end it seems that indigenous grasses properly tended are the best answer.





I'm no expert on over seeding , so will withhold commenting on same .
I'

[Tom_Doak]

  It's too much of a risk for the tour to play an event on dormant bermudagrass, particular the fairways. Potential for a lot of white paint and/or thin areas. That's why you see overseed on courses that are hosting the events in locations where it would go dormant-Torrey Pines, Scottsdale, Palm Springs, Bay Hill, Harbour Town and of course, AGNC.

That's a weird definition of "risk".  I would guess their main risk concern is more about whether the sponsors would be upset if their flagship event didn't look green on TV. 


I understand Pete's point, but members are less likely to accept dormant playing surfaces when the Tour always manages to find some reason to avoid them.


That said, it's different for different climates.  If you're somewhere that it's wet in the winter, dormant turf is not going to be a good surface, as SBusch says:  when it's dormant it won't soak up the water.  That's not so much of a problem in Australia ... but it doesn't seem like it should be a big problem in Palm Springs or Arizona, either.

[Anthony_Nysse]

  It's too much of a risk for the tour to play an event on dormant bermudagrass, particular the fairways. Potential for a lot of white paint and/or thin areas. That's why you see overseed on courses that are hosting the events in locations where it would go dormant-Torrey Pines, Scottsdale, Palm Springs, Bay Hill, Harbour Town and of course, AGNC.

That's a weird definition of "risk".  I would guess their main risk concern is more about whether the sponsors would be upset if their flagship event didn't look green on TV. 


I understand Pete's point, but members are less likely to accept dormant playing surfaces when the Tour always manages to find some reason to avoid them.


That said, it's different for different climates.  If you're somewhere that it's wet in the winter, dormant turf is not going to be a good surface, as SBusch says:  when it's dormant it won't soak up the water.  That's not so much of a problem in Australia ... but it doesn't seem like it should be a big problem in Palm Springs or Arizona, either.

Tom-
  The Tour and its officials never want to "risk" playing on surfaces that are less than perfect. Having been involved in Tour events and many of my closest colleagues also, "risk" is a very fair comment.
  About once a year, we will read about a Course hosting a tour event in where letter go out to the players before the week starts-TPC just a few years back, for example, the Tour doesn't want to deal with that, the players to want to play on that and the fans don't want to see it. Lastly, it's not good press for golf and it looks poor on the club/course itself.
  Just recently, there has been discussions about moving The Players back to March and overseeding. Why? To ensure optimal playing conditions. Early May in Jax is more of a "risk" that overseeding in March.

[A.G._Crockett]

Dormant bermuda is fine for the first month or two while there is still a little bit of root action and the course stays relatively dry.  But by this time each winter, most courses that are dormant bermuda and not overseeded become a soggy mess that just aren't a lot of fun to play on.

For example: I'm sitting here typing this reply instead of playing golf as I normally would be on a Sunday morning because it rained all night and my already soggy home course will be a quagmire today.  Even playing lift, clean, and place doesn't save the situation.  I always have to remind myself that for the next three months, my handicap will rise without regard to much else besides turf conditions; drives don't roll, irons have to be struck perfectly, pitching becomes VERY difficult, and so on. 

Disclaimer: Soggy conditions on dormant bermuda is a GREAT example of a "first world problem", and I do NOT want to come across as complaining about being able to play golf whenever I want to, regardless of turf conditions.  But since you asked...

[BCrosby]

A G -

What's the old Laudon Wainwright (sp?) song about going to a party where they served only blended Scotch so I threw my glass across the front yard and dented my Mercedes? Or something like that?

Yes, a first world problem, but if you live in the first world it is a problem nonetheless.

This is the 'shoulder season' for Bermuda in the SE. It has been several months since any growth, the turf is holding lots of water and ball marks dating back to last October are collecting and still plainly visible in the greens.

Bob   

[Jay Mickle]

Here in the Sandhills of NC dormant Bermuda is an excellent playing surface. At #2 they have over the past years found a great dye to make the course look naturally green, at Dormie the course is a golden yellow both surfaces are better than overseeded Bermuda playing firmer and faster.

[BCrosby]

I would guess that sandy soils help with the "firm and fast" thing in the NC Sandhills.


Not much of that on the clay soils here in ATL.


Bob

[Kyle Harris]

Here in the Sandhills of NC dormant Bermuda is an excellent playing surface. At #2 they have over the past years found a great dye to make the course look naturally green, at Dormie the course is a golden yellow both surfaces are better than overseeded Bermuda playing firmer and faster.

How many carts do they let out at #2 when the turf is dormant?

[Jay Mickle]

Here in the Sandhills of NC dormant Bermuda is an excellent playing surface. At #2 they have over the past years found a great dye to make the course look naturally green, at Dormie the course is a golden yellow both surfaces are better than overseeded Bermuda playing firmer and faster.

How many carts do they let out at #2 when the turf is dormant?

The same number that they let out the rest of the year. Same at Dormie. And you point is?

[Kyle Harris]

Here in the Sandhills of NC dormant Bermuda is an excellent playing surface. At #2 they have over the past years found a great dye to make the course look naturally green, at Dormie the course is a golden yellow both surfaces are better than overseeded Bermuda playing firmer and faster.

How many carts do they let out at #2 when the turf is dormant?

The same number that they let out the rest of the year. Same at Dormie. And you point is?

The amount of cart traffic is often the leading factor in determining whether or not to overseed a dormant. For some operators, the cost of the overseed is more than made up in the revenue generated by cart use. Love it or hate it, the courses that succeed with no overseed are often the courses that can limit the amount of cart traffic one way or the other on the dormant turf be it through walking-only or cart-path only. It is my understanding that #2 is cart-path only.

Much of the overlooked "risk" is in regard to what the golf course looks like at the end of the dormant season and the steps required to recover that in the growing season. It makes sense to me that a tour stop would prefer to overseed, simply due to the nature of the traffic for a stock tour event coupled with the required revenue-generating use before and after the event.

[A.G._Crockett]

Here in the Sandhills of NC dormant Bermuda is an excellent playing surface. At #2 they have over the past years found a great dye to make the course look naturally green, at Dormie the course is a golden yellow both surfaces are better than overseeded Bermuda playing firmer and faster.

How many carts do they let out at #2 when the turf is dormant?

The same number that they let out the rest of the year. Same at Dormie. And you point is?

The amount of cart traffic is often the leading factor in determining whether or not to overseed a dormant. For some operators, the cost of the overseed is more than made up in the revenue generated by cart use. Love it or hate it, the courses that succeed with no overseed are often the courses that can limit the amount of cart traffic one way or the other on the dormant turf be it through walking-only or cart-path only. It is my understanding that #2 is cart-path only.

Much of the overlooked "risk" is in regard to what the golf course looks like at the end of the dormant season and the steps required to recover that in the growing season. It makes sense to me that a tour stop would prefer to overseed, simply due to the nature of the traffic for a stock tour event coupled with the required revenue-generating use before and after the event.

Kyle,
You could be right about the cart traffic/overseed relationship in some places, but that hasn't been my experience in a lifetime lived in the SE.  Here, overseeding is about two things; either "curb appeal" real estate or daily fee play, or, in very rare instances, prepping a course for a spring pro tournament, with ANGC of course being the poster child.  In the former case, there has been MUCH less of this done in recent years as budgets have been tighter, and as more superintendents have made it clear that overseeding may slow up and harm the green up of the bermuda when the weather warms up.

If you're in the SE in the winter and early spring, you'll see HS and college baseball fields overseeded, in part to soak up moisture, but mainly for the look.  Plus, their fields are used less in the summer anyway, so a slower green up of the bermuda matters less than it does on a golf course.

[jim_lewis]

I prefer dormant Bermuda in the NC Sandhills. It works best on courses that don't get a lot of winter play since bare areas and divots don't heal. Most clubs still over seed par 3 tees since they get a lot of punishment from iron tee shots. Bob is certainly right about the clay in Atlanta. Once it gets wet, it stays wet all winter. That can be a serious problem on courses that get a lot of play. I recall that my club in Atlanta did not allow carts on the dormant fairways because cart traffic beat the brittle turf down to nothing.

[SB]

Overseeding has all but disappeared in most markets in the SE.  The cost is really pretty extreme when you consider not only the cost of the seed and fertilizer, but the water, the downtime, and most significantly, the cost to mow it every day.  You get to $50,000 pretty quickly, and it's just very difficult to pay that back.  Not to mention your course looks terrible in May when you want it to look perfect. 


I've never heard it being about cart traffic, for me it's always been about revenue in a place like Myrtle Beach or Hilton Head, where your season is March to May and you need perfect conditions at that time and can sacrifice the summer.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Overseeding has all but disappeared in most markets in the SE.  The cost is really pretty extreme when you consider not only the cost of the seed and fertilizer, but the water, the downtime, and most significantly, the cost to mow it every day.  You get to $50,000 pretty quickly, and it's just very difficult to pay that back.  Not to mention your course looks terrible in May when you want it to look perfect. 


I've never heard it being about cart traffic, for me it's always been about revenue in a place like Myrtle Beach or Hilton Head, where your season is March to May and you need perfect conditions at that time and can sacrifice the summer.

Certainly a lot less courses seeding that 10 years ago, but still quiet a few that do. Multiple courses in the Southeast that tried painting fairways in the past have gone back to seeding because of too much wear on the dormant bermudagrass, especially in the Myrtle Beach market.
  There are also a good number of courses that rotate-seeding fairways one year, seeding rough one year and seeding nothing one year...or some form of seeding and not seeding.

[Marty Bonnar]

This is great stuff, all. Exactly how I hoped the thread would travel.
Thanks!


F.

[Jerry Kluger]

Dormant Bermuda can be a wonderful surface if there is really good drainage but if it is soaking wet it isn't fun.  Quail Hollow would overseed for the Wells Fargo and in the summer heat the rye was supposed to die and Bermuda come to life - year I played it the Bermuda never came in and it was full of bare spots and a lot of dirt.  My club has the SAS Championship in October and the Bermuda goes dormant shortly after that and the course is full of divots that don't repair until the Bermuda comes back in the spring. 

[Scott Weersing]

Plus, while dry dormant bermuda is a nice playing surface, soaked dormant bermuda is not.  More like mud than grass.

Yes, wet bermuda is all we have this January here in Virginia Beach, VA.

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