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Thomas Dai

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Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« on: January 05, 2017, 12:08:10 PM »
The various threads on magazine rating and raters seem to concentrate on US courses.
What's the situation with rating and raters in GB&I, Aussie/NZ, Continental Europe, Middle/Far East, SA, Central/South America etc etc?
How do raters get to be raters? How many raters are there? How many visits can a course expect from a rater in say year? Do raters have to announce themselves in advance? Do they have to post a report/rating after every visit?
Just curious.
Atb
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 12:28:00 PM by Thomas Dai »

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: Rating throughout the world
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2017, 12:14:01 PM »
USGA rating or for publications?
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Rating throughout the world
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2017, 12:18:45 PM »
He means the magazine ratings. The overwhelming majority of British golfers would never have heard of USGA ratings.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Rating throughout the world
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2017, 12:22:32 PM »
Thanks Adam. I do indeed mean the magazine ratings. Rating, raters and all things related. Are there separate website ones as well? If so them too.
Atb


I have edited the title and first post to hopefully clarify things.

jeffwarne

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Re: Rating throughout the world
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2017, 12:24:56 PM »
Thomas,
 Though I rarely play a course because of its ranking,
I often use "Top 100 Golf courses as a resource, or starting point
I don't take the ratings or rankings as gospel(in fact I couldn't care less), but it is consolidated by country and region and has been very useful to me(along with GCA and the CG) in organizing/researching a trip.


but to answer your question I'm sure there's plenty of bias/politics in world rankings as well
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 06:00:59 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: Rating throughout the world
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2017, 12:31:47 PM »
He means the magazine ratings. The overwhelming majority of British golfers would never have heard of USGA ratings.

That's what I get for typing and talking on the phone. However I was surprised how many courses around Fife did carry USGA/RA ratings. I have one pic from Kingsbarns but cannot find it.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2017, 12:32:07 PM »
The word "groupthink" comes to mind when contemplating the subject of golf course rating.  Unavoidable, I suppose, but annoying nonetheless.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2017, 12:35:17 PM »
Golf Magazine is the only magazine with a proper panel to rate the best courses in the world. Look no further than people like Ran and their excellent editor to support my argument. They are also the only mag that proudly publishes the names of all their raters. For good reason considering these guys don't need a card or a magazine affiliation to get access.

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Rating throughout the world
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2017, 12:36:19 PM »
Thomas,
 Though I rarely play a course because of its ranking,
I often use "Top 100 Golf courses as a resource, or starting point
I don't take the ratings or rankings as gospel(in fact I couldn't care less), but it is consolidated by country and region and has been very useful to me(along with GCA) in organizing/researching a trip.


but to anser your question I'm sure there's plenty of bias/politics in world rankings as well


out of curiosity...what do you mean by "bias" and "politics"...there are lots of definitions behind both

Peter Pallotta

Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2017, 12:37:17 PM »
The word "groupthink" comes to mind when contemplating the subject of golf course rating.  Unavoidable, I suppose, but annoying nonetheless.
I agree with you on that. I think most of us here do as well.

Joe Hancock

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Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2017, 12:50:19 PM »
The word "groupthink" comes to mind when contemplating the subject of golf course rating.  Unavoidable, I suppose, but annoying nonetheless.
I agree with you on that. I think most of us here do as well.


Except for a whole bunch of guys who are vocally against it.....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Sean_A

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Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2017, 01:09:05 PM »
The various threads on magazine rating and raters seem to concentrate on US courses.
What's the situation with rating and raters in GB&I, Aussie/NZ, Continental Europe, Middle/Far East, SA, Central/South America etc etc?
How do raters get to be raters? How many raters are there? How many visits can a course expect from a rater in say year? Do raters have to announce themselves in advance? Do they have to post a report/rating after every visit?
Just curious.
Atb


As you know Golf World (Or was it Golf Monthly) traditionally has the most respected GB&I rankings, though I think Top 100 has now taken over that position.  Anyway, Golf World listed its panelists in the edition with the rankings. I don't recall how many there are (were?)...maybe 50ish made up of a variety of peple in the business and players.  I think Top 100 also lists its panelists on the website...there aren't that many. 


I don't know how many raters visit a course per year, I wouldn't have thought very many in GB&I and most would likely be Americans.


I think most panelists are invited after being touted by a current panelist.


I always announce mysef in advance when trying to organize a game and ask permission to rate a course. Often times I have a sit down with the Secretary or Pro to discuss the course. If I approached a course as a rater I submit a rating. However, 90% of the time I am not rating courses...just playing where I want to play and keeping my own notes for personal reasons. Many courses are not included on the Golfweek rating list so the pool of courses to rate isn't huge.  Also, many clubs aren't all that fussed about ratings so pass on the proposition.   


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2017, 03:05:35 PM »
Golf World used to have a largish panel of respected industry types from architects to professionals to administrators. Then 4 years ago they threw all that out and changed it to 14 regular golfers with no industry connections.


I did the Golf Digest Ireland rankings for 5 years. We pretended to abide by the GD categories but in reality didn't even think about them. 10 of us (all working in golf) just sat in a hotel for three days and argued and debated until we came up with the 100. I haven't been involved for the last two years and the whole process seems to have peaked and run its course in my opinion.


Ally

Tom_Doak

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Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2017, 03:15:12 PM »
Thomas:


There are many, many rankings of golf courses around the world.  For example, there are a couple of competing golf magazines in New Zealand, each with their own list.  Same for Australia.  In the bigger countries, these magazines are often affiliated with the major U.S. golf publications, and they may send their own local rankings up the chain of command for consideration; I think there is at least some hint of tokenism like that in the GOLF DIGEST international rankings.


Likewise there are many U.S. states with publications that purport to do rankings of the best courses in those states.  Some of them have panels of golfers to do the rankings -- though many of them would be local pros or top-flight amateurs with pre-existing knowledge of the courses, so they don't add much to the numbers of people turning up at the pro shop as "raters."  Other publications keep it mostly in-house among the editors, and may be affected by advertising considerations.  GOLFWEEK in the old days used to let subscribers vote, and for years the Bloomingdale Golfers Club was rated #1 in Florida, ahead of Seminole etc.  [I'm pretty sure they stuffed the ballot box.]  The Dallas Morning News has (or had) rankings for the best courses in Texas, but I don't know of too many other rankings by big papers like that.


As you get further afield to Europe and Asia, most countries are small golf markets, and rankings are more easily bought off.  Even the big international rankings are prone to "errors" on courses in Asia, because the owners are willing to spend a lot of money for the prestige of being included, and only a small subset of the panelists get to those places ... so it is very easy to ply them [and/or the editors] with special treatment.  It would be hard to do the same thing for courses that are more accessible to panelists at large, so it is less likely to happen for U.S. courses, although some of the ultra-private courses use their complete control over who gets to play to cherry-pick the guys they give access to.


There are more than 1000 panelists for GOLF DIGEST and another 500 for GOLFWEEK and another 150 for GOLF Magazine, each playing and rating an average of 40 courses a year.  If we assume they're all playing the same 1,000 courses, then each of those courses would be hosting about 65 panelists per year; but if we assume that some of the better courses get more requests, that means they might see 150 requests for access per year.


Those are roughly the numbers for U.S. courses.  Elsewhere around the world, I would expect the numbers to be significantly smaller.  Hypothetically, if you owned a course in South-east Asia and wanted it considered for a top 100 list, you would only have to spring for 10 people to come and play it over the course of 2-3 years ... some of whom might even pay their own way.  Or, you could fork over $2 million to host some sort of "prestige" event.  Hosting tournaments was the way it was done back in the old days, before clubs figured out that hosting panelists was a lot less expensive.  ;)


I do like the "top100golfcourses" web site as a starting point, as Jeff mentioned.  Based on my experience in the Canary Islands last year, its rankings may also be influenced by outside factors -- the highest-rated course there was the worst one of the four I saw -- but as with all of these things, it's all subjective and "buyer beware" !


Unfortunately, that's the cover under which some real b.s. happens in this world we live in.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2017, 03:20:51 PM »
Golf Magazine is the only magazine with a proper panel to rate the best courses in the world. Look no further than people like Ran and their excellent editor to support my argument. They are also the only mag that proudly publishes the names of all their raters. For good reason considering these guys don't need a card or a magazine affiliation to get access.


Hey John, are you still related by marriage to that editor?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2017, 03:30:40 PM »

I think most panelists are invited after being touted by a current panelist.



This is the #1 source of "groupthink," incidentally.  Panelists lobby to get their buddy on the panel, too, so that they can go on golf trips together, and then put their heads together in rating a course.  And, coincidentally, increase their own impact on the results.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2017, 03:50:09 PM »


The subject of magazine rating and raters (and how one becomes one, what it entails and what are the benefits/downsides etc etc) is not really a subject that seems to be well known in the UK and maybe other places outside the US so thank you for your responses, some nicely comprehensive ones.
Atb

jeffwarne

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Re: Rating throughout the world
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2017, 04:01:21 PM »
Thomas,
 Though I rarely play a course because of its ranking,
I often use "Top 100 Golf courses as a resource, or starting point
I don't take the ratings or rankings as gospel(in fact I couldn't care less), but it is consolidated by country and region and has been very useful to me(along with GCA) in organizing/researching a trip.


but to anser your question I'm sure there's plenty of bias/politics in world rankings as well


out of curiosity...what do you mean by "bias" and "politics"...there are lots of definitions behind both


Bias-wanting to see your course ranked and only inviting or allowing those whp you know will give a favorable ranking.
OR simply going into a course ranking visit wth a bias or predetermined opinion based on what the architects or owners have done in the past


Politics-ranking a course highly in return for such things as comps, brownie points, or simply ranking it highly because other well respected critics do-or to cull favor with the owner, achitect etc.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2017, 05:28:38 PM »
Golf Magazine is the only magazine with a proper panel to rate the best courses in the world. Look no further than people like Ran and their excellent editor to support my argument. They are also the only mag that proudly publishes the names of all their raters. For good reason considering these guys don't need a card or a magazine affiliation to get access.


Hey John, are you still related by marriage to that editor?

Proudly so. Never afraid to throw a bone for the holidays. Give Joe credit, he never offered me a ratership. That's when I knew he was legit.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2017, 05:58:21 PM »


Hey John, are you still related by marriage to that editor?

Proudly so. Never afraid to throw a bone for the holidays. Give Joe credit, he never offered me a ratership. That's when I knew he was legit.


Either that, or he didn't want to risk his job over your behavior, which would make him a wise man!  Tell him I said hi!

Sean_A

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Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2017, 07:56:03 PM »

I think most panelists are invited after being touted by a current panelist.



This is the #1 source of "groupthink," incidentally.  Panelists lobby to get their buddy on the panel, too, so that they can go on golf trips together, and then put their heads together in rating a course.  And, coincidentally, increase their own impact on the results.


I don't have a clue how the only rater I ever travelled with marked the courses...never talked about scores, just the courses. Have you seen guys collude on scores or is that your best guess?  Honestly, so much is made of raters, you would think we have tails tucked in our trousers and hide forked tongues.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

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Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2017, 09:55:44 PM »
I don't have a clue how the only rater I ever travelled with marked the courses...never talked about scores, just the courses. Have you seen guys collude on scores or is that your best guess?  Honestly, so much is made of raters, you would think we have tails tucked in our trousers and hide forked tongues.



I didn't say they colluded on scores ... but if you go to a course with a buddy and they play bad and rag on it for the next three days of your trip, don't you think that will influence your score?  And if you love the course and keep bringing up its virtues to the other guy, he won't vote higher?


The only "collusion" I know of [and it isn't direct] is that there is a subset of panelists in one poll determined to put a wider representation of countries onto the final list, so they vote higher on some courses in faraway places than they really even believe themselves.  I don't know if there is also an editorial bias in that direction, or whether it's just a bunch of panelists deciding there should be X number of courses from America and Y from Europe and Z from Asia, but several of them have explained their thinking against my objections.

David_Tepper

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Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2017, 10:10:15 PM »
Thomas D. -

Not a magazine, but I presume you are familiar with this website:

http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/

DT

Sean_A

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Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2017, 10:13:46 PM »
I don't have a clue how the only rater I ever travelled with marked the courses...never talked about scores, just the courses. Have you seen guys collude on scores or is that your best guess?  Honestly, so much is made of raters, you would think we have tails tucked in our trousers and hide forked tongues.



I didn't say they colluded on scores ... but if you go to a course with a buddy and they play bad and rag on it for the next three days of your trip, don't you think that will influence your score?  And if you love the course and keep bringing up its virtues to the other guy, he won't vote higher?



Thats life isn't it? We will always be influenced by others in everything we do.  Why should golf be different?  I don't see an issue. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

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Re: Magazine rating and raters throughout the world
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2017, 11:05:05 PM »
Sean: 


Yes, that's life, but on a small panel supposedly full of independent thinkers it's not really ideal ... especially in a system where only a few votes are necessary to make a list.  It lowers the threshold for "favors".


Also, I can say with some experience that golf professionals do not particularly like dealing with groups of 2-3 raters instead of just one at a time ... it's harder for them to exercise their prerogative.