[Tim Fitz]

It's a nice hole with a great green but this is architectural hyperbole.

Well then, what #2 from your experience is worthy of such lofty rhetoric?

Heck, just in the same suburb, 2 at the renovated Bob O'Link is a better hole. 2 at Shoreacres is way more interesting and unique. 2 at Chicago Golf has potential peril in both the tee shot and the approach. Then you have to putt that green!  On the other side of town 2 at OFCC South is much more naturally appealing and more of a challenge. 2 at Old Elm has a terrific green, with the great runoffs that are mentioned but it's a second shot hole. The tee shot is mundane and the retention pond on the right detracts from the visual appeal. I love what Drew and Dave et al have done at Old Elm but there are better holes out there than 2.


As for my personal favorite I am not really sure as I don't have such a great hole by hole memory like you guys but to play Sven for a minute the second hole at all four courses are superior to OE. 2 at Cypress comes to mind, same with Friar's Head,


Sorry to quibble but this just seems like a forced selection, to get OE some comparison to the other, vastly superior courses that are in your sample.

I am sure that it is just a failure of my ability to use the search function on this website, but I can't seem to find a "Great 18" or "Eclectic 18" of Chicago courses.  Between the Hon. T. Lavin's comments above and the number of Chicago folks hanging out in these parts, I imagine we could have a pretty spirited debate about the best 18 holes in Chicago using Jason's rules.  Since I assume this has been covered, can anyone that is better at searching than me point me to that posting.  If it doesn't yet exist, perhaps we can start that discussion in a separate thread.

[Jason Way]

I am sure that it is just a failure of my ability to use the search function on this website, but I can't seem to find a "Great 18" or "Eclectic 18" of Chicago courses.  Between the Hon. T. Lavin's comments above and the number of Chicago folks hanging out in these parts, I imagine we could have a pretty spirited debate about the best 18 holes in Chicago using Jason's rules.  Since I assume this has been covered, can anyone that is better at searching than me point me to that posting.  If it doesn't yet exist, perhaps we can start that discussion in a separate thread.

Looking through our selections, we have at least one Chicagoland hole nominated for every number except #8 and #18.  By the time I have compiled all of the additional nominations from the peanut gallery, I suspect that we will have every hole covered with multiple selections.  Might have all numbers covered for Philly too, especially if that contingent starts chiming in.

It would be fun if this thread lived on after Peter, Jon and I have shared our selections to continue crowdsourcing sub-courses by city, state, architect, whatever direction you want to take it.  That was one of the reasons why I gave it the title America's Great 18s (as opposed to America's Best 18 or America's Greatest 18).  Happy to manage it for as long as it holds everyone's interest.

[Terry Lavin]

It's a lot of work by you guys and my comments are just my personal opinions and all collegially intended.

[Eric LeFante]

If the 2nd at Pine Valley still looked like this there wouldn't be a debate.....

[Jason Way]

It's a lot of work by you guys and my comments are just my personal opinions and all collegially intended.

All taken as such sir - no worries.  I appreciate you sharing your nominations, especially #2 at Shoreacres.  That's my favorite hole on the front nine.  Keep 'em coming.

[Jason Way]

The 3rd on our Classic Great 18 is Oakmont #3, a par-4.

Given that we have started our course with three straight four pars under 400 yards, I guess that we have made a statement about our perspective on the link between length-based difficulty and greatness.  Not an intentional statement, but there it is.

With regard to Oakmont's third, it is iconic because of the church pews, and they are really neat.  But they are not what I think makes this hole great.  The way that the hole lays upon the hillside is the first part of its greatness.  The slope of the hill from high right to low left is subtly disorienting.  It looks cool, but it does not look quite right, and that creates an awkwardness that must be overcome to hit a good drive. 

The blind approach to the top of the hill makes the kind of demand that we love.  And the green itself, which has a false front AND runs away from back to front is no lay down to hit and hold.  Approaches that come up short leave a tricky recovery, but it is hard to muster up the guts to err on the side of going long when looking up the hill.

Once on the green, the third is gentle by comparison to others at Oakmont which means that the player who rises to the tee-to-green challenge is rewarded with a legit opportunity to hole a putt. 







Our runners-up - Olympia Fields CC North, LACC North, Kittansett, Wannamoisett, Camargo, Chicago GC, NGLA, The Country Club, Pine Valley, Pasatiempo, Piping Rock

[Jason Way]

The 4th on our Classic Great 18 is Fishers Island Club #4, a par-4.

I have not played FI, but Peter and Jon have and I know that this Alps/Punchbowl combo hole is an all-time favorite of Jon's.  His comments:

"If any one hole captures the greatness of Fishers Island, it’s this one.  Before teeing off, players note the day’s pin position on a pegboard.  Options abound off the tee, and players hit anything from driver to mid-iron, depending on their chosen line and the wind, aiming at the alps hill at the end of the fairway.  That hill makes the approach shot blind.  The hole culminates in the best punchbowl green in all of golf, one that must be seen to be believed.  The walk over the alps hill, when this green first comes into view, is one that no golfer will ever forget."









Our runners-up - Chicago GC, Bethpage Black, Inverness, Myopia, Seminole, Pinehurst #2

[Peter Pallotta]

Wow, what a 3-4 combination, they even flow together because of the shared uphill nature. The easiest no-brainer in golf/gca: 18 downhillers or 18 uphillers, the latter is always going to be better golf!
Thanks again, gents.

[Ira Fishman]

Other nominations for Fourth Hole:


Yale (Ben Crenshaw: "a perfect use of water as a driving hazard")


The subject of "The Great Debate" thread: Mid-Pines.

[Terry Lavin]

Fisher's Island is world class golf porn. Simply breathtaking.  Gotta get there. I've played Oakmont three times and I can honestly say that it's the most fun penal course I've ever played.

[Tim Fitz]

If forced to choose a single golf hole to play for the rest of my life, I would choose #4 at Fishers Island.

Perhaps it is the setting (with the waves of Long Island Sound lapping the coast gently to the right); perhaps it is the pure fun of the Alps/Punchbowl combo; perhaps it is the firm conditions at FI.  Whatever it is, it all adds up to a fun hole on which to play golf.  Great choice.

I have played a few of the honorable mentions and while they are great holes, this one isn't close for me.

[Jason Way]

The 5th on our Classic Great 18 is Merion East #5, a par-4.

Another one that I have not played, but Peter and Jon have.  Their comments:

"A simple yet extremely difficult hole, Merion’s fifth begins with a tee shot to a canted fairway sweeping left toward a small creek that runs the length.  Aggressive tee shots challenging the creek will have the better approach.  The green is a masterwork of simplicity and terror, with a steep slope toward the creek.  Any approach with right to left movement into this green risks winding up in the hazard, and putts from above a left pin often meet the same watery fate."





Our runners-up - Crystal Downs, Chicago GC, Fishers Island, Pinehurst #2, Riviera, Old Town Club, Mountain Lake, Philadelphia Cricket Club

[Josh Tarble]

Jason,
Sorry to interrupt your classic 18 with my modern 18. But finally got around to putting together my Modern 18 list.  I'll get around to commenting on the classic list too.

Plays to a par 72 of 6610 yards.  Par 36 front, 3385.  Par 36 back, 3225.

1. Wolf Run | Par 4 | 420 | Best opener apart from Kingsley and Crystal Downs I've played
2. Erin Hills | Par 4 | 330 | Such a fun hole with the blind tee shot and tiny green.  Will be fun to see it in the US Open
3. Secession | Par 4 | 450 | Kind of a brutal hole, but I love the ambiance of Secession and this hole really sums up the place.
4. World Woods | Par 5 | 560 | One of the best par 5s I've played.  So many options
5. Streamsong Blue | Par 3 | 115 | Options galore, very stressful par 3 for being so short
6. Whislting Straits | Par 4 | 350 | My favorite hole on one of my favorite courses.  I love the tee shot and the green.
7. Streamsong Red | Par 5 | 580 | One of my favorite par 5s.  I love the inverted bunker.  Dictates every shot.
8. Desert Forest | Par 3 | 230 | Spectacular downhill par 3.  Great hole at a great place.
9. Blackwolf Run | Par 4 | 350 | Talk about options.  Classic Dye.  Tempts you into playing the dumb shot, but should be an easy hole

-------------------

10. Kiawah Ocean | Par 4 | 430 | Probably my favorite tee ball on the course.  Tee shot and approach call for different shot shapes
11. Old Memorial | Par 5 | 510 | Another split fairway par 5 and I think it really works.  Greensite may be a little severe
12. Chechessee Creek | Par 4 | 330 | C&C template Lions Mouth green, but the tee shot is spectacular
13. Crooked Stick | Par 3 | 185 | Fairly polarizing hole, but I think it's very unique.  Semi-blind tee shot into a short-ish par 3
14. Brickyard Crossing | Par 4 | 290 | One of Dye's best short par 4s. Eagle and Double in play equally
15. Porto Cima | Par 5 | 550 | More of a personal favorite, but I love the downhill tee shot and approach into the penisula green
16. We-Ko-Pa Saguaro | Par 4 | 330 | One of the better uphill holes I've played.  I love everything about this hole
17. TPC Sawgrass | Par 3 | 150 | This one is probably cliche, but why mess with what works
18. Harbor Town | Par 4 | 450 | Maybe the best 18th hole I've ever played.  Really feels like the entire round builds to that tee shot 

[Bill Satterfield]

Jason, I've been busy with other things and just getting caught up on your thread again.  Using your criteria along with the extra criteria of not using any holes you selected or honorable mentions, here is my classic list.  It kills me not being able to use the 4th from Fishers, the 8th from Pebble Beach, the 15th from Sleepy Hollow, and some of my favorites from Pine Valley, but alas here is what I came up with:

Hole	Course/Hole	Yards	Par
1	Oak Hill (East)	460	4
2	Peachtree	584	5
3	Sleepy Hollow C.C.	167	3
4	The Country Club	335	4
5	Bethpage (Black)	478	4
6	Blue Lakes CC	200	3
7	Plainfield	471	4
8	Piping Rock	445	4
9	Interlachen CC	530	5
10	Omaha CC	506	5
11	Oakland Hills (South)	455	4
12	Congressional (Gold)	434	4
13	Crystal Downs	442	4
14	Shinnecock Hills	449	4
15	Pine Valley	615	5
16	Cypress Point	222	3
17	Merion	220	3
18	Riviera	451	4

[Bill Satterfield]

A lot of those are probably familiar offerings.  Here are a few comments on the ones that may not be:


#6 Blue Lakes CC - Twin Falls, ID - This course is a unknown gem for a lot of the world with three incredibly scenic par 3s that utilize the Snake River or a tributary of it.  The course is pinched between towering lava rock walls and Idaho's life blood; the Snake River.  The drive down to the club is an entertaining experience by itself as the road switchbacks several times before narrowing down to a single lane as you descend down the canyon to the property.  The views of the naturally blue lake on the back nine and the unique setting are impressive to say the least.  The 6th hole is a 200 yard poke for every tee box and drops over 100 feet on the way to the green that sits out in the Snake River with a grove of trees being the lone barrier between the green and the moving water.  It's an unforgettable hole that probably couldn't be built today given the proximity to the river.

[Bill Satterfield]

10th - Omaha County Club - I was really surprised by how much I enjoyed Omaha CC.  The terrain is very hilly which creates a ton of fun holes to play.  The 10th is a short par five that plays 80 feet downhill off the tee to the bottom of a valley that features a creek coming in from the right side before it tunnels under the fairway.  The approach shot(s) play 30 feet back uphill to a left-to-right sloping green with bunkering ready to catch shots that leak to the gravity driven right side of the hole. 

[Bill Satterfield]

12th - Congressional CC (Gold) - While the Blue course gets all the hype, and deserves it considering it is the better of the two tracks, the 12th green on the Gold course was the most engaging and challenging putting surface of Congressional's 36 holes.  The tee shot plays over a pond to a fairway that doglegs hard left through a forest of trees. Upon emerging from the dogleg players are presented with a downhill sloping fairway that is pinched on the right by a pond before finishing at a green site protected by a pot bunker in the front and water on the right. The back-to-front and left-to-right slope in the green is much more severe than any first time visitor could ever imagine. In fact, I spent at least ten minutes hitting various putts from different parts of the green and I kept being amazed at the results. This hole requires precision off the tee, wisdom on the approach, and meticulous touch on the green for any chance of walking away with a par.

[Scott McWethy]

10th - Omaha County Club - I was really surprised by how much I enjoyed Omaha CC.  The terrain is very hilly which creates a ton of fun holes to play.  The 10th is a short par five that plays 80 feet downhill off the tee to the bottom of a valley that features a creek coming in from the right side before it tunnels under the fairway.  The approach shot(s) play 30 feet back uphill to a left-to-right sloping green with bunkering ready to catch shots that leak to the gravity driven right side of the hole.

Wow, if that doesn't scream Perry Maxwell, I don't know what does!  That's a beautiful looking golf hole.

[Jason Way]

Thanks for sharing your courses, comments and photos Billy and Josh.  Omaha CC and Blue Lakes CC look special.

Keep those nominations coming all!

[Terry Lavin]

Thread jack. Not nice.

[Jason Way]

The 6th on our Classic Great 18 is Eastward Ho! #6, a par-4.

The great par-4s just keep on coming.  I promise that this is not a course of 18 par-4s, although now that the thought has arisen...later perhaps. 

EH #6 is a favorite of Jon's, and he is the only one of our trio who has played it. His comments:

"The 6th hole at Eastward Ho! is one of the most spectacular par 4s in American golf.  Plunging sharply downhill through a valley created by some of the most severely sloping fairways you’ll ever see, the 6th plays shorter than its yardage but is far from easy.  The elevated green sits hard on the water’s edge, providing panoramic views of the bay and the small islands in the distance."









Our runners-up - The Creek Club, Shoreacres, Olympia Fields CC South, Seminole, Riviera, Lawsonia, Roaring Gap Club, Pebble Beach

[Jason Way]

The 7th on our Classic Great 18 is Lawsonia Links #7, a par-3.

Any hole that was built by burying a large piece of machinery is great in our book, but the 7th at Lawsonia is more than just an epic construction story.  It embodies the combination of enormous scale of greens and hazards with subtle genius green contours that Langford & Moreau designed into nearly every hole on the course.

There is plenty of green to work with from the tee, but it doesn't look that way relative to the massive drop-off right.  That causes a tendency to bail out left.  Balls that find the bunker left are no picnic either, with overzealous explosions risk running across the green and right down to the spot the player was attempting to avoid in the first place. 

This a great hole, and it isn't even our favorite on the course.  Count us among Lawsonia's devotees.







Our runners-up - Chicago GC, Ekwanok, Kittansett, Maidstone, Crystal Downs, Pebble Beach, Inverness

[Declan Kavanagh]

Jason & Co.  Thank you for doing this.   Very entertaining and nice to get some looks at some of the highest regarded holes at great courses both modern and classic.  It is also 2 PM on a Friday and it was great to kill 20 minutes going through this.  Feedback so far would be the following:


Modern #6: Hands down The Golf Club.  Top 10 or so hole I have ever played.


Classic #6: This may not be architecturally popular since modern technology has rendered it a little too short but Shinnecock #6 is my favorite hole on that course.  I caddied there for 5 years and while there are numerous other great holes on that course I found that one to be very demanding and fun especially when played in wind.


Classic #7;  Redan at Chicago is great.


Pulling for Yale at #9.

[Jason Way]

Thanks for chiming in with your nominations Declan.  Glad that you're enjoying our little adventure thus far. 


What other #1-#7 favorites have we missed y'all?

[Jason Way]

The 8th on our Classic Great 18 is Pebble Beach #8, a par-4.

Peter and Jon have played Pebble, and I have not.  It is one of Peter's favorites - here are his comments:

"Words on their own cannot properly describe the majesty of the 8th at Pebble.  Hitting blind, the hole kicks off with a flare for links golf.  Upon reaching the crest, the player is met with a jaw-dropping vista that few, if any, holes in the game can replicate. With winds whipping, and a thrilling approach looming, the iconic eighth defines timelessness for its players."











Our runners-up - Crystal Downs, Orchard Lake, Essex County Club, Blue Mound, Prairie Dunes, Maidstone, Wykagyl, Pine Valley, Riviera, Old Town Club, Yale

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