[Peter Pallotta]

Someone should build a replica course. It would be easy enough: all the plans/specs and drawings are there and more than enough photos. Actually, build *three* replica courses, one for the best 18 and two more based on the honourable mentions. Move as much dirt as necessary to get it done. Put all three courses at the same resort --the finest, truly the best golfing complex the world has ever known! Would anyone mind that? Would anyone have any issues with the *maximalist* approach and the costs involved if it resulted in not one or ten or even 18 signature holes, but 54 of them?!

[Tom_Doak]

Someone should build a replica course. It would be easy enough: all the plans/specs and drawings are there and more than enough photos.

Of those that are mine, I think it will be hardest to replicate the 13th at Pacific Dunes, unless you've got a pretty good oceanfront site in mind for this project.  And if you do, I'd rather try to build something new on it! 

[Terry Lavin]

Someone should build a replica course. It would be easy enough: all the plans/specs and drawings are there and more than enough photos.

Of those that are mine, I think it will be hardest to replicate the 13th at Pacific Dunes, unless you've got a pretty good oceanfront site in mind for this project.  And if you do, I'd rather try to build something new on it! 

In a word its inimitable, in the best possible meaning of the word.

[John Kirk]

Jason,

Thanks for putting this thread together.  I enjoyed it very much.

Off the top of my head, the first choices for holes 16-18 would be:

16 - Rock Creek Cattle Company
17 - Tara Iti
18 - Ballyneal

All Tom Doak courses, but I have to go with what I know.

I've always loved Ballyneal's 18th hole.  The correct way to play the hole is to drive the ball down the left side if the pin is on the left third of the green.  Otherwise, play the center or right side if the wide fairway.  I consider the 18th green to have an ideal level of challenge and variety, ranging from easier hole locations with gentle contours on the left and center of the green, to the more difficult pins on the right and rear of the green.  You can run the ball into the right side of the green, whereas the approach shot must be flown onto the left or center of the green.  Finally, it is a hole where par usually requires three or four good shots, but a score of double bogey or worse is unlikely, unless the player duck hooks his/her tee shot into the native left of the golf course.  I don't like the idea of a brutal, "round wrecking" last hole, leaving the player demoralized.  It appears that Stonewall's 18th hole is similarly a tough par, but manageable bogey hole.

     

[Jason Way]

Thanks for sharing your nominations and insights, fellas.  Really enjoying catching up on the discussion, and still looking forward to seeing full Modern courses that the enterprising among you create. 

Classic Great 18 will be starting soonly...

[Tom_Doak]

It's weird doing an eclectic of my own work and not including the overseas courses -- we've built a lot of holes in Australia and New Zealand that would find a good home on an all-world eclectic -- but I've tried to do one for my own U.S. courses, just because it illustrates how different my own favorite holes are from those chosen by Jason's group.  Here goes:


1st at Old Macdonald          [r-up:  Ballyneal]
2nd at Stone Eagle             [r-up:  Sebonack and Pacific Dunes]
3rd at The Rawls Course     [r-up:  Stonewall North]
4th at Medinah #1             [r-up:  Tumble Creek, Streamsong, The Loop Black]
5th at Streamsong Blue      [r-up:  Rock Creek]
6th at Pacific Dunes            [r-up:  Stonewall Old, Old Macdonald]
7th at CommonGround       [r-up:  Rock Creek, Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes, Old Macdonald]
8th at Aetna Springs          [r-up:  Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes]
9th at Tumble Creek          [r-up:  Stonewall North]


10th at Rock Creek            [r-up:  Black Forest]
11th at Sebonack              [r-up:  Lost Dunes, Rock Creek, Pacific Dunes]
12th at The Loop Black      [r-up:  Ballyneal, The Loop Red, Quail Crossing]
13th at Lost Dunes           [r-up:  Pacific Dunes, Dismal River, Black Forest]
14th at Dismal River         [r-up:  The Loop Black]
15th at Stonewall North    [r-up:  Rock Creek, Lost Dunes]
16th at Ballyneal              [r-up:  Old Macdonald, Pacific Dunes, CommonGround]
17th at The Loop Red       [r-up:  Streamsong, Dismal River, Ballyneal]
18th at Stonewall Old       [r-up:  Stone Eagle, Dismal River, Sebonack]


I had to leave out my favorite holes at Tumble Creek (4th), Ballyneal (7th), and Lost Dunes (11th) to make them all fit together, but I think this would make a pretty good overall course, and wouldn't be a complete backbreaker. I noticed that the one type of hole I don't have a good representative for is a 220+ yard par 3.  The best ones I've done are overseas, but there aren't that many I'm really fond of.  Maybe the 5th or 7th on the Mulligan course will make it next time I do this list.

[Jon Cavalier]

It's weird doing an eclectic of my own work and not including the overseas courses -- we've built a lot of holes in Australia and New Zealand that would find a good home on an all-world eclectic -- but I've tried to do one for my own U.S. courses, just because it illustrates how different my own favorite holes are from those chosen by Jason's group.  Here goes:


1st at Old Macdonald          [r-up:  Ballyneal]
2nd at Stone Eagle             [r-up:  Sebonack and Pacific Dunes]
3rd at The Rawls Course     [r-up:  Stonewall North]
4th at Medinah #1             [r-up:  Tumble Creek, Streamsong, The Loop Black]
5th at Streamsong Blue      [r-up:  Rock Creek]
6th at Pacific Dunes            [r-up:  Stonewall Old, Old Macdonald]
7th at CommonGround       [r-up:  Rock Creek, Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes, Old Macdonald]
8th at Aetna Springs          [r-up:  Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes]
9th at Tumble Creek          [r-up:  Stonewall North]


10th at Rock Creek            [r-up:  Black Forest]
11th at Sebonack              [r-up:  Lost Dunes, Rock Creek, Pacific Dunes]
12th at The Loop Black      [r-up:  Ballyneal, The Loop Red, Quail Crossing]
13th at Lost Dunes           [r-up:  Pacific Dunes, Dismal River, Black Forest]
14th at Dismal River         [r-up:  The Loop Black]
15th at Stonewall North    [r-up:  Rock Creek, Lost Dunes]
16th at Ballyneal              [r-up:  Old Macdonald, Pacific Dunes, CommonGround]
17th at The Loop Red       [r-up:  Streamsong, Dismal River, Ballyneal]
18th at Stonewall Old       [r-up:  Stone Eagle, Dismal River, Sebonack]


I had to leave out my favorite holes at Tumble Creek (4th), Ballyneal (7th), and Lost Dunes (11th) to make them all fit together, but I think this would make a pretty good overall course, and wouldn't be a complete backbreaker. I noticed that the one type of hole I don't have a good representative for is a 220+ yard par 3.  The best ones I've done are overseas, but there aren't that many I'm really fond of.  Maybe the 5th or 7th on the Mulligan course will make it next time I do this list.

This is a course I'd most definitely play.

[Brian Finn]

Thanks for sharing your nominations and insights, fellas.  Really enjoying catching up on the discussion, and still looking forward to seeing full Modern courses that the enterprising among you create. 

Classic Great 18 will be starting soonly...

[Jason Way]

Very cool, Tom.  Thank you for taking the time to put that together.  Still very much interested in other submissions, as well as arguments as to why they blow our original Modern 18 out of the water. 

[Jason Way]

Never a good idea to blow off Judge Smails.  He's sentenced boys younger than me to the gas chamber.  Didn't want to do it, felt he owed it to them.

Let's do this.

The 1st on our Classic Great 18 is National Golf Links of America #1, a par-4.

This is a hole that Jon loves, and I concur.  Jon's comment from our original post on my blog:

"Step on to the first tee box at National and feast your eyes: to your left, the 18th green and Peconic Bay; straight ahead, the beautiful clubhouse and your target fairway; slightly to your right, the iconic windmill.  Macdonald’s Valley template isn’t often seen in true form any longer, but this gem of a hole, with its intricate bunkering and its wild, undulating green sets a perfect tone for a round on one of the best courses in all of golf."

Back to our previous discussion about what makes a great opener.  It immediately engages the mind with a tee shot to an angled fairway, but doesn't require a bomb with the first swing.  It requires precision with the approach, but that approach is made with a short club.  It provides challenge on and around the green, but recovery is possible for the player who possesses a savvy short game.

There may be other holes at NGLA that we love more than the first, but there is no classic #1 that we love more than this hole.









Our runners-up – Crystal Downs, Whitinsville, Oakmont, Inverness, Mountain Lake, Skokie CC

[Brian Finn]

You can't go wrong with any hole at NGLA, so no arguments from me.

My personal favorite first hole (in the US) is Plainfield.  It's a somewhat demanding par 4 with a large, phenomenal green.

I know Jon has played Plainfield, but I don't think he's as enamored with it as I am.

[Tom_Doak]

My favorite opening hole discovery of the past few years is the very short par-5 1st at Hooper, New Hampshire.

[Ira Fishman]

Old White #1.  Not best hole on course but terrific opening hole.  Picture does not even do full justice--tee elevated well above fairway.

[John Kirk]

I birdied that little bastard.  If the putt hadn't hit the hole, I'd've had a 6 footer for par.

[Eric LeFante]

You can't go wrong with any hole at NGLA, so no arguments from me.

My personal favorite first hole (in the US) is Plainfield.  It's a somewhat demanding par 4 with a large, phenomenal green.

I know Jon has played Plainfield, but I don't think he's as enamored with it as I am.

Good choice Brian. I like the first hole at Plainfield, but not as much as the 4th hole and 17th hole. The 4th is an incredibly strategic short par 4. A lot of people don't like the 17th hole but I absolutely love it.

[Jason Way]

The 2nd on our Classic Great 18 is Old Elm Club #2, a par-4.

A spirited case for this hole was made by Peter, and I sided with him because my OE homerism has been greatly enhanced by the ongoing changes spearheaded by Drew Rogers, Dave Zinkand, Curtis James, and Kevin Marion.  Peter's comments:

"Quite simply, the 2nd at Old Elm is timeless architectural design. While short in length, the necessity of accuracy looms large.  As technology has rendered helpless many holes designed in the golden age, the 2nd cannot be overpowered merely by 300 yard pops.  The knoll green is small and plays smaller, exacting a price on even near misses – the pressure of the approach puts the golfer in a stressful position back in the fairway."

When I was a kid, this hole was one dimensional.  The left side was lined with trees, there was a tree, bunker, and rough left of the green, and the conditions were somewhat lush.  A player who hit a drive down the middle could try to get their approach pin high.  Missing the center line meant hedging toward the front left, which was a relatively easy up and down, even from the bunker.  Now, with the trees gone, the conditions fast and firm, and the crowned green surrounded by closely mown runoffs, the player has more choices to position for the approach, but much less margin for error on that approach.  This hole was never what I would call easy, but now it is terrifying.











Our runners-up – Myopia, Garden City, Shoreacres, Somerset Hills, Pine Valley, Old Town Club

In fairness to Jon and his strong case for Tilly's Redan at Somerset Hills, here a few bonus photos.

[BCowan]

Jason/Peter,

   Nice selection, the hole has a lot of width to it off the tee and the short iron approach is treacherous.  I hate the irrigation pond on the right, which i deduct a whole Doak point for OE.  I'd go with the 2nd at Scioto.  The tee shot is exciting and the bunkers on the right just fit perfectly on the side hill.  The tee shot calls for a fade to reduce the right to left fairway slope.  The green may have been raised by DW, but the strategic value in the tee shot makes up for it. 

[Terry Lavin]

It's a nice hole with a great green but this is architectural hyperbole.

[Brian Finn]

I can't comment on old elm, but it must be a helluva hole to beat out Somerset Hills.

[Jason Way]

It's a nice hole with a great green but this is architectural hyperbole.

Well then, what #2 from your experience is worthy of such lofty rhetoric?

[Terry Lavin]

It's a nice hole with a great green but this is architectural hyperbole.

Well then, what #2 from your experience is worthy of such lofty rhetoric?

Heck, just in the same suburb, 2 at the renovated Bob O'Link is a better hole. 2 at Shoreacres is way more interesting and unique. 2 at Chicago Golf has potential peril in both the tee shot and the approach. Then you have to putt that green!  On the other side of town 2 at OFCC South is much more naturally appealing and more of a challenge. 2 at Old Elm has a terrific green, with the great runoffs that are mentioned but it's a second shot hole. The tee shot is mundane and the retention pond on the right detracts from the visual appeal. I love what Drew and Dave et al have done at Old Elm but there are better holes out there than 2.


As for my personal favorite I am not really sure as I don't have such a great hole by hole memory like you guys but to play Sven for a minute the second hole at all four courses are superior to OE. 2 at Cypress comes to mind, same with Friar's Head,


Sorry to quibble but this just seems like a forced selection, to get OE some comparison to the other, vastly superior courses that are in your sample.

[Tom_Doak]

Shoreacres and Piping Rock, I don't understand as candidates for the 2nd hole, and I've worked on both.


The 2nd at Somerset Hills is a fine hole, but it's a Redan, and [I sure hope] you are only going to have one of those at most in your 18-hole course ... and there are certainly better Redans in America, although you've given up on the best one [NGLA] already.


I guess you wanted to pick a different hole at Pine Valley, because #2 at PV is way better than any of these.  I usually go with their 2nd hole for an eclectic; the 13th is my favorite hole at Pine Valley, but it always loses out to the 13th at Augusta in these exercises.

[BCowan]

Jason/Peter,

   Nice selection, the hole has a lot of width to it off the tee and the short iron approach is treacherous.  I hate the irrigation pond on the right, which i deduct a whole Doak point for OE.  I'd go with the 2nd at Scioto.  The tee shot is exciting and the bunkers on the right just fit perfectly on the side hill.  The tee shot calls for a fade to reduce the right to left fairway slope.  The green may have been raised by DW, but the strategic value in the tee shot makes up for it.

Opps, I will select the 2nd at Franklin hills. Tee shot is strategic with a centerline bunker and an awesome green.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jason - thanks for all this; I live my golfing life vicariously, through photos and the experiences of posters like you.   


Just to take a step back, re the No 1 hole. While if I had to choose there'd probably be a few courses I'd play first, before NGLA, I am continually startled and amazed by it.  The first hole is a great example: the strange feeling/sense it gives me -- i.e. that there is so much going on and yet not much going on at all; that is manifests simplicity and complexity at one and the same time, and in equal measures -- is so unique.


The only great course I've played is Crystal Downs, and I liked the 1st there very much, for many reasons. But while that golf hole says "Welcome, and good luck" the first at NGLA seems to say "Welcome, glad you could make it, hope you had a good night's sleep, how are you feeling this morning, how's the wife and kids, well, you're away, if you're ready to go and have everything you need, take some time though first and pick your line, you may want to check with the caddie, Jim's one of the best..."   

[Jason Way]

Fantastic Peter. Absolutely agree with your assessment and love the way you put it.

Thanks for the other nominations gents.  Tom, you are right about Piping Rock #2.  That hole was apparently forgettable enough for me to mentally skip right over it and think that the Redan 3rd was #2 (fixed in my previous post). 

None of us have played Augusta or Bob'O'Link, so you won't see any selections from those courses.  Jon played Cypress after we picked our 18.  We might make a late substitution for one CPC hole, but it is not the 2nd.  I played Philadelphia Cricket Club after we made our selections, so I would also add PCC #2 to my list of Runners-up.

More to come...

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