[Andy Johnson]

Doing a writeup on Tillinghast's famed par 5 design the Great Hazard and wondering what everyone's favorites are?


Unfortunately I haven't played many of Tillinghast's courses yet. I found the design at Philadelphia Cricket Club and have become infatuated with the design since.  I love the design because of the great premium it puts on the tee shot. If you don't find the fairway a difficult decision must be made. Spectacular strategic design. Here's the 550 par 5 7th at Philly Cricket.

[Tom_Doak]

I like the version we built -- the 17th at Streamsong (Blue).  I've received a lot of praise for that hole, but have not seen anyone make the connection to the Tillinghast concept we were thinking of when we built it.


I like the one at Five Farms better than the one at Baltusrol.

[Steve Lapper]

I like the version we built -- the 17th at Streamsong (Blue).  I've received a lot of praise for that hole, but have not seen anyone make the connection to the Tillinghast concept we were thinking of when we built it.


I like the one at Five Farms better than the one at Baltusrol.

I agree with Tom and while it may not be written, every time I face my second shot on Streamsong Blue's #17 I think of Tilly.


I believe Hell's Half-Acre on #7 at Pine Valley was also a prime example of a Tilly Great Hazard.


Other AWT specific examples include: Fenway #3; Bethpage Black #4; Quaker Ridge #14; and Somerset Hills #9. Some of these are more hazardous than others, but all of them menace the eye.

[Eric LeFante]

The 7th at Pine Valley is where Tillinghast came up with the idea and it probably is the most severe of them all so this one is really in a class of its own. Tillinghast wrote several progress updates while Pine Valley was being built and was very proud his concept was incorporated at the 7th.


The 4th at Bethpage is a really good one because it is on an angle and the second shot is uphill so the carry over the right side is much longer than you think.


The additional length drives go now made some of the hazards less menacing than they used to be. The 7th at Pine Valley and the 17th at Baltusrol added significant length to make these hazards play the way they were intended. From the back tees, the 7th at Pine Valley is 636 yards and 470 yards to carry the hazard. The regular tees are 65 yards short of that so a 405 yard carry. At Baltusrol the 17th form the back tees is 647 yards and its a 450 yards carry the hazard. The regular tees are 100 yards short of that so 350 yards to carry the hazard.

[Tom_Doak]

Damn, I forgot the hole at Bethpage!  That's the best of them by far.  That Burbeck guy was a genius.

[JC Urbina]

Andy,


Several years ago while still working for the Dye family and finishing up The Karsten course at ASU, I came up with an idea of the perfect yardage.  This yardage would be needed to use every club in your bag, that being a standard bag of 3-9, one PW and one Sand Wedge.  Three metal woods of 1-3 and 5.


The idea that you would use every club in a round of golf  required a golf course design that would use different angles of attack and more then one Great Hazard crossing the fairway at some point during your round.


The perfect yardage back in 1988 when I was dreaming of different golf designs was a distance of 7015. I wish I could find the routing and scorecard for the design.  The key to the  layout was the Great Hazards even though I didn't come to appreciate Tillinghast and Pine Valley until a few years later.

[Thomas Dai]

Seems like the 3rd at Prestwick only a few decades later?
Atb

[MCirba]

Wasn't the Mother of all Great Hazards and probably Tillinghast's inspiration the "Hell Bunker" at TOC?

[Tom_Doak]

Wasn't the Mother of all Great Hazards and probably Tillinghast's inspiration the "Hell Bunker" at TOC?

Tillinghast claimed it was his own original concept, that he convinced George Crump to use.  I've never seen anything where he referred to Hell bunker as his inspiration.  Although maybe there is a lost drawing somewhere underneath someone's bed, if you are interested in purchasing it ...


  Merry Christmas Mike

[MCirba]

Merry Christmas Tom! 

[Tim Gallant]

Has been mentioned here, but I thought the 9th at Somerset Hills was quite spectacular. The second shot across the cross bunkers was visually intimidating, but the fall-off on the left side of the green into those bunkers was the scariest part of that hole. Yikes!

[Eric LeFante]

Has been mentioned here, but I thought the 9th at Somerset Hills was quite spectacular. The second shot across the cross bunkers was visually intimidating, but the fall-off on the left side of the green into those bunkers was the scariest part of that hole. Yikes!

The 9th hole at Somerset Hills is interesting because the great hazard is much shorter off the tee than Tillinghast's others. The hazard is only about 240 yards from the regular tee so a good tee shot can almost go into the hazard when the fairway is firm. Players with even mediocre drives will likely be able to carry the hazard with their second shot. The mounding that is part of the hazard is wonderful and very troublesome (see below). The left side of the fairway is guarded with apple trees with very low hanging limbs so drives to the left will likely have to lay-up short of the hazard.


The two fairway bunkers down the left in the lay-up area are very well placed as the fairway slopes towards them. The green is very deceptive and as Tim noted, the greenside bunkers left are very deep.





 

[Tim Gallant]

Eric,


Great photo and agree about the two bunkers on the left that trouble layup shots. If memory serves, the green runs from right to left, which in my mind means holding the centre or right side of the green is easier from the left, but leaves less room to run the ball in. In which case the left side may be the optimal position depending on the pin. Is that indeed the case?

[MCirba]

#17 at the Dormie Club has an intimidating one.

Recently I played Tilly's Swope Park Memorial Muni in KC and it had two different par fives on the front nine utilizing the second shot cross bunker/Great Hazard feature, although the second one (the 9th hole) has been so compromised by technology that it's a viable option to try to carry it from the tee!   I'm pretty sure Tillinghast would be aghast!

[Joe Schackman]

Not sure anyone would call it "Great" but the first hole at Shackamaxon in NJ has a creek/hazard that functions like the other holes mentioned.

It takes two very solid strikes to clear the hazard in two but most players can get home on the third if they lay up. So ya not a perfect example but functionally similar.

[Andy Johnson]

I like the version we built -- the 17th at Streamsong (Blue).  I've received a lot of praise for that hole, but have not seen anyone make the connection to the Tillinghast concept we were thinking of when we built it.


I like the one at Five Farms better than the one at Baltusrol.

Tom, I am going to see Streamsong for the first time in January, very excited to see your work there.

[Andy Johnson]

Andy,


Several years ago while still working for the Dye family and finishing up The Karsten course at ASU, I came up with an idea of the perfect yardage.  This yardage would be needed to use every club in your bag, that being a standard bag of 3-9, one PW and one Sand Wedge.  Three metal woods of 1-3 and 5.


The idea that you would use every club in a round of golf  required a golf course design that would use different angles of attack and more then one Great Hazard crossing the fairway at some point during your round.


The perfect yardage back in 1988 when I was dreaming of different golf designs was a distance of 7015. I wish I could find the routing and scorecard for the design.  The key to the  layout was the Great Hazards even though I didn't come to appreciate Tillinghast and Pine Valley until a few years later.

Jim would love to see that routing. Such an interesting concept, what do you think the perfect yardage is now? 

[Jerry Kluger]

I thought the one at Baltimore CC is also the hole where you can drive the ball over the maintenance building which makes the hazard inconsequential although I may be wrong.  There is also one at Ridgewood which can definitely come into play.

[Tom_Doak]

I thought the one at Baltimore CC is also the hole where you can drive the ball over the maintenance building which makes the hazard inconsequential although I may be wrong. 

Jerry, that's two different holes.  The "Barn Hole" is the par-5 6th, and the "Sahara" is on the longer 14th.

[Peter Pallotta]

Andy

Several years ago while still working for the Dye family and finishing up The Karsten course at ASU, I came up with an idea of the perfect yardage.  This yardage would be needed to use every club in your bag, that being a standard bag of 3-9, one PW and one Sand Wedge.  Three metal woods of 1-3 and 5.

The idea that you would use every club in a round of golf  required a golf course design that would use different angles of attack and more then one Great Hazard crossing the fairway at some point during your round.

The perfect yardage back in 1988 when I was dreaming of different golf designs was a distance of 7015. I wish I could find the routing and scorecard for the design.  The key to the  layout was the Great Hazards even though I didn't come to appreciate Tillinghast and Pine Valley until a few years later.

I hope you get to design and build this one day.
I'm embarrassed by how I used to scoff at anything a tour pro might say or phrase he might use, e.g. 'you need every club in the bag'; 'it's all out in front of you'; 'you have to be able to work the ball both ways'; 'the key is driving it straight'; 'you have to be able to get up and down from some tough spots'; 'the greens run true and have some subtle breaks'.
Why I ever scoffed is beyond me; all that sounds like the makings of one terrific golf course

[Eric LeFante]

I thought the one at Baltimore CC is also the hole where you can drive the ball over the maintenance building which makes the hazard inconsequential although I may be wrong.  There is also one at Ridgewood which can definitely come into play.

The one at Ridgewood is one of the toughest par 5s I've played. It's the 13th hole on the composite course, and the hazard is all mounds and rough. The three par 5s on the composite course are just about as good as anywhere. I think Tillinghast unfairly has the reputation for designing weak par 5s. Maybe it's because his par 4s and par 3s are that good.

[Eric LeFante]

Eric,


Great photo and agree about the two bunkers on the left that trouble layup shots. If memory serves, the green runs from right to left, which in my mind means holding the centre or right side of the green is easier from the left, but leaves less room to run the ball in. In which case the left side may be the optimal position depending on the pin. Is that indeed the case?

Tim, it's so easy for the ball to run into those bunkers on the left that you can't really flirt with them to get an angle. Those deep green side bunkers closely guard the left side so you really want to stay to the right. The green is open on the right so that's the play. Only the left side of the green slopes left. The right side of the green does not.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I thought the one at Baltimore CC is also the hole where you can drive the ball over the maintenance building which makes the hazard inconsequential although I may be wrong.  There is also one at Ridgewood which can definitely come into play.

The one at Ridgewood is one of the toughest par 5s I've played. It's the 13th hole on the composite course, and the hazard is all mounds and rough. The three par 5s on the composite course are just about as good as anywhere. I think Tillinghast unfairly has the reputation for designing weak par 5s. Maybe it's because his par 4s and par 3s are that good.

Ridgewood has 2 par5s that use mounding for this great hazard concept. 3 east and 4 west. 2 of my favorite greens on the course,

[Brett Wiesley]

I think the greatest applications of the great hazard concept are when the hazard is not just large but angled.  Bethpage #4, Baltusrol #17 are some of Tillinghast's greats amongst others.  I think Streamsong Blue #17 is also in this class (however into the wind #18 is much harder).  I feel that Pine Valley #7 is a different beast, as it is a large block hazard, not angled.  The example at Dormie #17 may be too extreme with the uphill shot, the sand part of the hazard may be a benefit, as opposed to tall grass.  Overall, the concept is fabulous.

[Joe Bausch]

I thought the one at Baltimore CC is also the hole where you can drive the ball over the maintenance building which makes the hazard inconsequential although I may be wrong.  There is also one at Ridgewood which can definitely come into play.

The one at Ridgewood is one of the toughest par 5s I've played. It's the 13th hole on the composite course, and the hazard is all mounds and rough. The three par 5s on the composite course are just about as good as anywhere. I think Tillinghast unfairly has the reputation for designing weak par 5s. Maybe it's because his par 4s and par 3s are that good.

Those Ridgewood holes described above and all the holes of the 'championship' layout can be viewed here, photos taken in mid-October of this year:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Ridgewood/index.html

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