[Mike_Young]

Qualification- a quality or accomplishment that makes someone suitable for a particular job or activity.

Competent- having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully.

As we usher in a new Presidency it is obvious that a large portion of the American public was overlooked by the Democratic party.  (That's all the politics I wish to mention).  Whether right or wrong we are in the process of seeing academia and professional politicians taking a backseat to people who have actually been in the work place getting things done. 

Just look at the golf business.  It's the same way.  Some of the best supts one will find are never on a panel at a national meeting and a few have never had an assistant.  Some of the best club pros are cooking weenies and mowing greens here and there.  I see pros who are well qualified as to how to swing a club but can't play the game.  And last but not least we had a 50 year period where many were qualified but just were not competent.  This incompetency is never spoken.  It was covered up and protected by many for years.  It allowed excessive layers to infiltrate the building process and price golf out of reach.  Just watch any of the Golf Inc. "Top People in Golf" or other such list and you will see a list of management company guys who support the magazine rating them or some guys whose notoriety can help promote a particular conference.  Most couldn't plug in a golf car. 

But now a new breed of architect/designer/artisan is appearing.  And he is competent.  How do I distinguish?  Well, to me , competent would be knowing how to build a USGA green but knowing when it will break a project to build them.  Competent is knowing how to design or implement an irrigation system that will water every inch of the course and grow it in quicker via computer and yet  understanding that the club cannot afford to use such a system and thus places a much simpler system in place of it.  Competent is knowing how to design a green that can hold it perimeter while using triplexes to mow vs. designing one that will loose the perimeter if it ever has to stop being walk mowed.  And I could go on. 

I bitch about ll of the above after a client was showing me where a "qualified" dude had shown him where his course would need about 4 million in rework and if anyone were to tell him differently they were not giving him the proper specifications or methods for doing his work.  The most revenue the course had ever had was about $900,000.  Some may think I'm an arrogant a**hole( I can accept that )  but the "qualified" dude was an idiot.  We have "qualifed" golf to death.  That's enough....

[Joe Hancock]

Mike,


As is true with any and every occupation and profession, there are those who are either average, below average, or above average at what they do. The percentages get smaller when approaching excellence. Golf design and construction, along with the business acumen, is no different. I would rather have the less accomplished get some work to prove my knowledge and experience valuable instead of my having to do all the sales work myself.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,


As is true with any and every occupation and profession, there are those who are either average, below average, or above average at what they do. The percentages get smaller when approaching excellence. Golf design and construction, along with the business acumen, is no different. I would rather have the less accomplished get some work to prove my knowledge and experience valuable instead of my having to do all the sales work myself.

Joe,
That's not exactly where I was coming from...I heard the phrase yesterday when a commentator was discussing the New Secretary of State.  His words were:  "There is no doubt he is qualified but I'm not sure he is competent"  ...to me competent would mean a qualified person with common sense and experience...

[John Kirk]

Mike,

I find this opening post offensive.  I see the point you are trying to make, but I think you're pointing the finger in the wrong direction.  I don't want to start a fight about it, but I'm going to say a couple things regardless.

1.  In my experience, the golf business is dominated by business types.  The players, the workers, the builders...every aspect of the game is dominated by business types, not academics or politicians.  The guy who said it would cost 4 million in rework is just another greedy salesman.

2.  The golf business has no one to blame but themselves for creating an overly complex, sales intensive industry, which will experience a painful downsizing as it tries to survive a rapidly evolving business environment.

3.  The opening post is simply wrong.  It is your workplace, your industry, that has capitalized to the best of its ability during an extended era of great prosperity.  The big boom is over.  Your attempt to equate the golf business with academics and politicians is way off base.

Signed,
One side of my family are Scottish cheapskates.

[Mike_Young]

John,
Sorry you find it offensive.  I did not see my self equating the golf business with academia and politicians.  And I agree with all of your statements regarding the golf business.  Why is that offensive?  My point is that the very ones who can get it done are taking the place of the ones that are as you describe.  One of us is reading my post incorrectly.

[John Kirk]

Hi.  I came back to soften my words a bit before bedtime, and am surprised you're still awake to already respond.  I read the opening post again, and I did misinterpret it a bit.

Still, the first paragraph about the election and contrasting academics and politicians to "people who actually get things done" is kind of weird.  They get things done, too.  Just different things.

[Mike_Young]

Hi.  I came back to soften my words a bit before bedtime, and am surprised you're still awake to already respond.  I read the opening post again, and I did misinterpret it a bit.

Still, the first paragraph about the election and contrasting academics and politicians to "people who actually get things done" is kind of weird.  They get things done, too.  Just different things.

John,
Don't worry about softening words for me....I just use the words academia and political where I could have used idealistic vs. realistic or maybe it would have been better to say those who sign the front of the check vs those who sign the back...but anyway you know what I mean...I realize they all get things done but one group pays taxes and one group uses taxes....I'm not slamming either group..just different strokes for different folks...

[Carl Rogers]

There always has been a tension between the "top --- down" vs "bottom ----up".
Ross, from what I can infer, from Vol 3 of the Confidential Guide could go both ways.


Technical questions about the Triplex Mower:
1.  what is its comfortable minimum turning radius?
2.  what is its comfortable maximum angle of cut differential for an even cut?
3. Do questions 1 & 2 vary per manufacturer or model?


Given many of the well received courses on this web site that have complex green sites, how many of them could be maintained with a triplex?


Could Ballyneal be maintained with a triplex?

[Joe Hancock]

There always has been a tension between the "top --- down" vs "bottom ----up".
Ross, from what I can infer, from Vol 3 of the Confidential Guide could go both ways.


Technical questions about the Triplex Mower:
1.  what is its comfortable minimum turning radius?
2.  what is its comfortable maximum angle of cut differential for an even cut?
3. Do questions 1 & 2 vary per manufacturer or model?


Given many of the well received courses on this web site that have complex green sites, how many of them could be maintained with a triplex?


Could Ballyneal be maintained with a triplex?

Answer to question No. 1: With a multi-point turn, the radius is nearly zero. No one says the mower has to pull all the way off the green into a rough cut to make a turn. With changes in mowing direction from day to day, the wear pattern is a non-issue, if agronomics are reasonably well managed.

Answer to question No. 2: I don't understand the question, but are you asking how difficult it is to get all three mowing units on a triplex set up the same? It's the same as trying to set up three walk behind mowers the same....and I know of no course mowing all the greens with one walk behind.

Answer to No.3: Probably some difference, but with a multi-point turn it becomes a moot point.

Answer to Ballyneal question: Of course it could. Kingsley has mowed with triplexes ever since it's inception. That's a fairly dramatic case point to prove the maneuverability of a triplex.

[Mike_Young]

There always has been a tension between the "top --- down" vs "bottom ----up".
Ross, from what I can infer, from Vol 3 of the Confidential Guide could go both ways.


Technical questions about the Triplex Mower:
1.  what is its comfortable minimum turning radius?
2.  what is its comfortable maximum angle of cut differential for an even cut?
3. Do questions 1 & 2 vary per manufacturer or model?


Given many of the well received courses on this web site that have complex green sites, how many of them could be maintained with a triplex?


Could Ballyneal be maintained with a triplex?

Carl,

The triplex mower of each manufacturer differs.  Jacobsen has always had a mower head which had more of a push type action where Toro had a pull type of set up.  Most say the Jake head gave a better cut.  If one were to set a Jake mower at say .100 and a Toro at .100 he would get two different height of cuts due to how they are built.  ( most use a prism for setting height in order to have the same HOC.  A properly set mower will have a uniform height of all reels.  And the new electric motors allow for variable clip rates which is really good for the new bermudas...

The new triplexes are very good and can mow as well as a walker.  And most greens could now be cut with the new triplexes.  HOWEVER...it is probably wise to not do a clean up cut with the triplex everyday or either have a guy come behind and use a walker to do the clean up cuts.  However, the new thing will be the robotic units and don't know where that will lead.

Does any of that help?

[Tim Gavrich]

I have to believe the advent and rapid adoption of drone mowers will go a long way toward keeping green edges in the same places longer, which is great.


Whenever I've seen greens mowed, it's always been straight across and back, over and over again. Do any superintendents recommend mowing greens more in the way Zambonis clean the ice? I.e. first around the perimeter and then the interior?

[Carl Rogers]

Mike/Joe,
Thanks for the responses...
Let me re-phrase...
Is a Triplex limited in its effectiveness of cutting a dramatically domed (curvilinear)surface?

[Don Mahaffey]

There always has been a tension between the "top --- down" vs "bottom ----up".
Ross, from what I can infer, from Vol 3 of the Confidential Guide could go both ways.


Technical questions about the Triplex Mower:
1.  what is its comfortable minimum turning radius?
2.  what is its comfortable maximum angle of cut differential for an even cut?
3. Do questions 1 & 2 vary per manufacturer or model?


Given many of the well received courses on this web site that have complex green sites, how many of them could be maintained with a triplex?


Could Ballyneal be maintained with a triplex?

Listen to Joe.
Don't listen to ANYONE who quickly replies with some auto answer.
Maintaining things is often a matter of motivation, and balance. Don't make every green hard to mow, some easy and simple, some complicated, maintain a balance. Find a Supt motivated to care for what you have with the $$$ you have; can do attitude trumps most everything else. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I do know that the transition slope from the green off the green has to be carefully constructed, or mowing is difficult.


Most supers I know prefer their crew get all the way off the green before turning.


I measure greens where there is stress in the collar and first cut, and while I am not familiar with every mfg specs, I have concluded a green needs to be 50 foot wide.  Ask someone from Wadsworth and they will tell you 55 feet wide.  Any tighter, especially with any hill or dale, and the tires dig a bit.  Hopefully, some of the new stuff I see in Orlando will let me design narrower greens....let me be a little narrow minded.


That is my experience.  Part of me thinks Mike's so called "new breed" may make the same mistakes the old guard made many years ago, and some lessons (like owners hiring the "wrong guy" are relearned every generation.


Not to mention lowest budget isn't always the smartest solution.  And construction costs are soaring now that we are out of the recession.  It hits like a ton of bricks.  Full renos used to be a 3-4M thing, and more recently $4-5M.  Now, it is a struggle to get full renos in under $6M in some areas.


That is what a lot of "value engineering" is.  Going cheap. We all go through what Mike describes, trying to match the lowest cost, highest value for ever more budget strapped owners.  It is never easy, and each architect has some limit of how "cheap" they will go.   That usually goes up over the years, and if the new breed is anything like the last generation (mine) if they put in too much cheap stuff early in their careers, they pay for it in a bad rep later.


The basics never change.  Some of us just have events that make us realize it in different ways at different times.  My guess is Mike's conversation was one of those for him.....or, he is just trying to agitate us again!

[Steve Okula]

There always has been a tension between the "top --- down" vs "bottom ----up".
Ross, from what I can infer, from Vol 3 of the Confidential Guide could go both ways.


Technical questions about the Triplex Mower:
1.  what is its comfortable minimum turning radius?
2.  what is its comfortable maximum angle of cut differential for an even cut?
3. Do questions 1 & 2 vary per manufacturer or model?


Given many of the well received courses on this web site that have complex green sites, how many of them could be maintained with a triplex?


Could Ballyneal be maintained with a triplex?

If in your first question about turning radius you mean with the reels up and not mowing, then yes, it is next to nothing. But if you mean with the reels down and mowing say, a perimeter, then you'd need a radius about 12 feet regardless of the make or model.

[Mike_Young]

Mike/Joe,
Thanks for the responses...
Let me re-phrase...
Is a Triplex limited in its effectiveness of cutting a dramatically domed (curvilinear)surface?

I don't think it would be limited anymore than a walker.  But you have to remember all of these machines are dependent on the operator abilities. 

[Tom_Doak]

I have to believe the advent and rapid adoption of drone mowers will go a long way toward keeping green edges in the same places longer, which is great.


Whenever I've seen greens mowed, it's always been straight across and back, over and over again. Do any superintendents recommend mowing greens more in the way Zambonis clean the ice? I.e. first around the perimeter and then the interior?

Tim:


Though they mow in straight lines, they set the lines at different angles each day [toward the tee, perpendicular to the line of play, and then at various 45-degree angles] so that the tires of the mower aren't going over the same exact spots every day.


If you mowed like a Zamboni, you would quickly wear out the outside edge of the green.  In fact, most courses do make a "clean-up pass" to have a crisp edge between the putting surface and the fringe, and you often see more wear on the perimeter of the green because of it.  Bandon Dunes, on fescue, has abandoned the clean-up pass to the point that it's hard to tell where the edge of the green is at all.

[Brett Hochstein]

Listen to Joe.
Don't listen to ANYONE who quickly replies with some auto answer.
Maintaining things is often a matter of motivation, and balance. Don't make every green hard to mow, some easy and simple, some complicated, maintain a balance. Find a Supt motivated to care for what you have with the $$$ you have; can do attitude trumps most everything else.

There is no phrase I hate more in this industry than "We can't do that."  Even if in the end the person is right and you can't indeed "do that" for a given situation, having that attitude places a massive limit upon the capabilities of the golf course.  Give things a try.  Experiment.  You may be amazed at what you might find.


Back to the OP topic, this is something that myself and a number of talented colleagues around my age are struggling with.  I would like to think of myself as "competent," especially going off the examples cited in the OP, but my "qualifications" as an architect* are limited or, depending how strictly you define it, nil.  In my observations, it seems "qualifications" carry more weight than competency.  The issue is, there is no way to obtain qualifications without being given the chance.  So, you get stuck in the holding pattern until you run into someone with similar vision, no political obstacles, and enough money to fund a project, and despite any efforts of marketing, research, promotion, and networking, who really knows when that day will come?  It can be as much luck as it is hard work for that to happen, and that is probably the most frustrating part.  That said, we are also fortunate that there is enough going on overall to still make and living as well as work on some fun stuff with good people and architects.  It would be really worrisome to have a reversion to 2008-2010.


*Architect defined as principal at top of project and the main entity hired by the client.  My life's study is golf architecture, and my preference is to work with architects and on projects that offer more opportunities for input and creative freedom.  But I have yet to have that distinguishing opportunity as lead of the entire project.

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