[Carl Johnson]

Does anyone know when the first privately owned daily fee non resort course opened in the USA?

Steve, I have no idea when the first one opened, but, for reference, the private club (Carolina Golf Club, Charlotte) I now belong to opened in 1929 as a privately owned daily fee non resort course and continued as such until the late 1950s when the owner sold it to a group that made it private. Early green fees (we think from 1929, probably): 40 cents for nine holes; 75 cents for 18, and $1.00 for all day.  Carl

[Mike_Young]

Jason, well stated. Good argument.


I might argue that the subsidized billion dollar loser (USPS) should be abolished. But its not the time or place. Obviously you are correct that exceptional operators are more nimble and innovative, providing better service and product for similar prices. But the president or your congressman probably wouldn't pressure you to make sure that you used the post office.


As stated I'm all for simple entry level recreational programs of all types and as needed, even for golf. I'm sure  being a caddy at two private clubs in my youth helped frame my opinion that it was a luxury to be a member , not a right as a citizen. Still see it that way.


Having lived thru a horrible experience with local government , and knowing what they can do to you galvanized my libertarian principles vis a vis government over reach!

Agree with the above and would also mention that as Jason says" people just are not as interested in golf" should help enforce not building more public etc....

[SL_Solow]

Again, avoiding the philosophical issues , not because I don't have an opinion but because nobody ever changes anybody's mind  on these boards, I would caution against a hard and fast conclusion about a loss of interest in golf.  I again respectfully suggest that these are cyclical problems.  Golf has survived for a long time.  The downturn varies from region to region.  If and when good economic times return, I suspect we will see growth again, at least for awhile.  For me the question is whether we are replacing the core.  If supply outstrips the core demand, there will be trouble and retrenchment during downtimes.  But of course, it is in the nature of builders  to expand beyond demand failing to anticipate that an upsurge will have an ending. 

[Mike_Young]

SL,
Agree the core is key.  A couple of ways to look at it.  6% of 250 million people is 15 million.  5% of 300 million is 15 million.   The percentage laying may drop but the number may increase or remain close...we just can't force it and it seems that what we try to do.

[SL_Solow]

From my limited stand point, I look at the ebb and flow of membership in Chicago's golf association.  We are down several thousand members from our high point but have stabilized at a number well above that of 20 years ago.  The numbers at the Illinois Junior Golf association are promising.  Moreover, we have only begun to tap the public golf market for membership.  So I see a lot of potential after the post 2008 downturn.  Not enough to believe that we are done losing golf courses but enough to work toward a healthy future.

[Mike Sweeney]

Moreover, we have only begun to tap the public golf market for membership.

I agree with everything you said, but I think this is the issue:

What is the "public golf market for membership"? Are they:

• Economic driven members? More rounds for less cost?
• "Exclusive" club members? - They drink the "old school" juice.
• Just want to hang and play with a "core group" of players/friends?

[SL_Solow]

By membership I was really talking about the Golf Association which covers private and publics.  Those who join the association, obtain handicaps, play in events etc build the game and are somewhat more committed.  Help to build the "core".

[Mike_Young]

By membership I was really talking about the Golf Association which covers private and publics.  Those who join the association, obtain handicaps, play in events etc build the game and are somewhat more committed.  Help to build the "core".

SL,

I think that is the next big thing...Golf Now and maybe even Norman will end up providing a handicap for the majority of golfer if they wish to have one.  Less than 3% of people keeping handicaps play in state or national events needing them.  For most of us the golf associations could go away tomorrow and things would continue as they are and for that reason I think the USGA has opened itself up for some competition from the GolfNow's and others.  It could be a battle since they control the "ink".  Lot of potential for someone who take sit up a notch from the Blue Blazers.

[SL_Solow]

I understand your comments Mike.  In my town we are trying to expand the model.  Give me a call sometime

[Mike_Young]

I understand your comments Mike.  In my town we are trying to expand the model.  Give me a call sometime

I WILL CATCH YOU NEXT TRIP...

[BCowan]

Mike,

    Next time your in the windy we can tee it at the Rav!  Drinks on me...

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

    Next time your in the windy we can tee it at the Rav!  Drinks on me...

Is that the one out near Cog Hill...

[BCowan]

It's the one by flossmore, calumet, and olympia fields.  We are okay at Rav, they let the unwashed on

[Mike_Young]

It's the one by flossmore, calumet, and olympia fields.  We are okay at Rav, they let the unwashed on

I probably don't want to play it then...     that's right near OFCC...

[BCowan]

Cliff are you really serious . Cape Cod needs subsidized golf to make it ?   Falmouth average single family home sells for over $1,250,000.   


Did you read any of the other posts about competition ?  Why do we bother
Trying to make rational arguments. No wonder people with good golf knowledge leave discouraged or disgusted !

One of the best posts in awhile!  Jkava gold plated. Subsidized golf for 1.25 million dollar pads.  U can't make this stuff up. 

[Sven Nilsen]

One of the best posts in awhile!  Jkava gold plated. Subsidized golf for 1.25 million dollar pads.  U can't make this stuff up.

Anyone else having Bania flashbacks?


That's gold, jaka!  Gold!

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff are you really serious . Cape Cod needs subsidized golf to make it ?   Falmouth average single family home sells for over $1,250,000.   


Did you read any of the other posts about competition ?  Why do we bother
Trying to make rational arguments. No wonder people with good golf knowledge leave discouraged or disgusted !

One of the best posts in awhile!  Jkava gold plated. Subsidized golf for 1.25 million dollar pads.  U can't make this stuff up.

 Would like to know where the $1.25 million home price comes from. The average home price in Falmouth is not that high.


Secondly,  i'm not sure what is meant by subsidized golf?  Falmouth country club does offer  resident discounts of a few dollars per round.  It was built in 1969.  It is leased by the town to Billy Casper.

[Cliff Hamm]

Since no one has responded I will answer the question.  It is not possible to have a rational discussion when people play with facts.  No, you can't just make this stuff up.


The median price of sales in Falmouth over the past year is $376k.  The average sale price is $494k.  Average will always be much higher than median when there is waterfront property.


http://www.oncaperealestate.com/cape-cod-real-estate-market-statistics/

[archie_struthers]

 


My apologies Cliff, thought I said the price of the average new single family home in Falmouth was over a million. You are correct . My bad.


In defense of the premise that rich towns don't need handouts for golf.  My home town Ocean City , NJ  has higher home prices than Falmouth , but most of the "homes" are condos , not singles.   Our single family home average is over a million . I can't see a groundswell of people looking to build a CCFAD here, nor is space available.


We do have a small municipal course that is very basic with 12 holes none over 220 yards .  It has never turned a profit but fits my vision of what a muni was intended to be .

[Cliff Hamm]

 Apology appreciated. Thank you.


As to munis I do think it is hard to generalize. No, country club for a day type courses should not be taxpayers subsidized (Chambers Bay, Ferry Point, the talked about course in Chicago,etc.)


At the same time there is plenty of room for courses such as what Geoffrey Cornish designed and Silva/Mungeam have continued.  It very much depends on the specifics of the locale.   Again, I do think Cape Cod is a good example. Plenty of private options. Very, very, few privately owned daily fee courses. 

[archie_struthers]

Thanks Cliff for accepting my apology.  Bad info not my MO as a rule.  😎😎

[Philip Caccamise]

There are approx 2500-2800 private courses in the USA.  The rest are public, resort or muni.  I know plenty of good solid well run privately owned publics who charge the same or less than their local muni competition.  I have seen some where they began to take rounds from the muni and the muni then turns around and spend four million on improvements without having to generate revenues to cover such bond.  Next thing you know the privately run public course is gone.  That's BS. 

I know there are some good muni courses out there which guys here are attached.  If they are worthy of saving (such as CC that MC is involved with) then it should be donated to a concerned group and be allowed to stand or fall on it's own merit.  No where does it say a luxury such as golf should be provided to those who wish to play it at the expense of all taxpayers.  Roads, schools, medical, water and such should be the concerns for the municipality.  Team sports fields are part of education and parks.  I have not seen one person give me a good reason why a muni should have a golf course.  Across the country there are plenty of us who grew up on public courses which were not munis.  Using the "munis gave us a place to play" may fit in a few places but not country wide. 

The other thing is that munis can't hire the best people for the job in most cases.  How would it go over to have a supt making more than the mayor?  Thus enter the management companies who love the munis.  Their MO is to have a staff who does not fall under the muni benefits and who is non union and who can be paid competitive salaries and all they need to do is justify losing less money than the city would lose.

For transparency, I'm with Cirba on this one- would not have played golf as a youth without access to a dirt cheap muni. Between being in an urban environment and having no money, no chance I gained exposure to the game.

But I really question whether your statement bolded: name some examples and we can review the economics involved. Realistically, the courses being closed are not better than the muni option (or their privately-held competition), regardless of the subsidy or not. Let's take San Diego, since that's the exact scenario you're referring to. Four courses have closed in the last 4 years: http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/drought-forcing-golf-course-closures-in-california-16029.htm All four were 20+ miles from Torrey Pines, and while I never played Escondido I can tell you for certain the choice for me would be 10 rounds to 0 Torrey Pines North versus the other three- and I have to pay the out of city rate. The three were all mediocre options, far from the main population center, facing a severe water crisis. Add in what I believe the true reason for course closings (Golfnow/tee time aggregators driving down what were artificially high greens fees in many regions) and the lesser can't survive. It had absolutely nothing to do with whether Torrey was able to keep a (theoretically) subsidized greens fee.

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