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Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #175 on: December 15, 2016, 07:39:55 AM »



If you live in the north and if you can play a lot of weekday golf. 






I am certain that these tours will proliferate over the next few years across the country.  The weekday thing is an issue, but a huge proportion of golfers are self-employed or business owners who routinely plan their work commitments around golf.  :D


Sunday afternoon events go some way towards solving the problem.



Sean_A

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Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #176 on: December 15, 2016, 08:16:14 AM »

If you live in the north and if you can play a lot of weekday golf. 


I am certain that these tours will proliferate over the next few years across the country.  The weekday thing is an issue, but a huge proportion of golfers are self-employed or business owners who routinely plan their work commitments around golf.  :D

Sunday afternoon events go some way towards solving the problem.


Sure, tours are another option. They are basically extended societies...so nothing new except for being registered as clubs for handicapping. I did play a few events on the Volvo Tour (new name now), but its too expensive for me.  I guess it works well for folks who don't have mates willing to fork out the cash for the big guns, folks wanting some competition and a no strings attached set-up.  I think they are a good idea, but even a well supported tour is only the equivalent of the membership of a handful of clubs....small beer.


Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #177 on: December 15, 2016, 09:32:14 AM »
When we come to a point where everyone wishes to "rent" golf instead of "own" golf then the decline will accelerate even more.  Just look at a housing development once it becomes renters instead of homeowners...or think about second homes and the trend toward renting instead of buying due to insurance and taxes.  We have made public golf where it is too easy not to commit....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #178 on: December 15, 2016, 09:56:24 AM »
When we come to a point where everyone wishes to "rent" golf instead of "own" golf then the decline will accelerate even more.  Just look at a housing development once it becomes renters instead of homeowners...or think about second homes and the trend toward renting instead of buying due to insurance and taxes.  We have made public golf where it is too easy not to commit....

So the problem is, at least in part, because of public golf?

For some reason, I'm not really concerned about the market for second homes vs. rentals. Also, if my wife didn't insist on owning our home, I'd happily rent a small apartment.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 10:00:03 AM by Brian Hoover »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #179 on: December 15, 2016, 10:03:19 AM »
When we come to a point where everyone wishes to "rent" golf instead of "own" golf then the decline will accelerate even more.  Just look at a housing development once it becomes renters instead of homeowners...or think about second homes and the trend toward renting instead of buying due to insurance and taxes.  We have made public golf where it is too easy not to commit....

So the problem is, at least in part, because of public golf?

For some reason, I'm not really concerned about the market for second homes vs. rentals. Also, if my wife didn't insist on owning our home, I'd happily rent a small apartment.

Brian,
I never said you or anyone else was concerned about second homes.  I used as an example.  And no...public golf is not the problem...muni golf is...Close all the munis and the golf will be ok...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCowan

Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #180 on: December 15, 2016, 10:06:56 AM »
Mike,

   Spot on.

Arble,

    You haven't lived in A2 in a long time.  It's the perfect case study.  Radrick has 75%+ of it's revenue collected before the Greens open in April.  UofM just started offering students $250 season passes in the last year or 2.  Until then few students played it because it cost too much.  I played with a UofM med student at the city course 5 years or so ago and asked him why he wasn't playing UofM.  He said it was too expensive for his budget.  Now back to membership/season pass vs daily fee.  UofM is 98% daily fee, with a short season and if it rains on half the Sat or Sun in a given year they are really taking a hit.  How an Alister Mackenzie/Maxwell course in a perfect location could ever lose money is psychotic.  It goes hand in hand with another point Mike mentioned in another thread.  The GM at UofM wants season passes but Athletic dept hasn't approved it.  No a University course should be able to break even, especially given the size of the University.  So the difference is one has memberships/season passes, the other does not.  The UofM course is 90% alum/faculty play and 10% students.   
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 10:13:59 AM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #181 on: December 15, 2016, 10:16:10 AM »
Tim

If a guy wants to hang out in his man cave rather than socialize, he isn't really clubable.  If clubs need to rely on f&B and club ambience to survive, then the game is lost.

Ciao
Sean--


I agree with what you said, but I wasn't suggesting that the way to solve the F&B and ambiance problem is to dump good money after bad. The way to solve it is to be more creative with the materials and budget currently allocated. Savvy superintendents are finding ways to use less water on their courses and are able to devote the money saved from water savings to other parts of the maintenance budget. Surely you're not suggesting that it's beyond the capability of clubs where F&B is involved to do the same?


I'm also wondering about your term "clubable." Has your rough definition of a "clubable" golfer changed significantly over the last 20 years? If not, I think you have much in common with a number of golf facilities who are seeing their customer bases erode.


And again, I think the erosion will continue until a) creative solutions come, or b) the clock runs out on enough facilities that they fall by the wayside and golf reaches a new normal with a quarter less supply.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

BCowan

Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #182 on: December 15, 2016, 10:16:57 AM »
when you're the one dismissing the cadre of younger, serious golfers as "dorks." Are you actually suggesting that members of younger generations adopting golf as their main recreation is somehow a bad thing?

Tim,

   Explain or cite where I implied this?  I have played golf since i was 6, hardcore cool dork.

Back to Maint savings.  In private clubs that have wells or pump out of water hazards water is not as expensive as people on GCA make it out to be.  Many midwestern clubs that over water is such a small % of the Annual expenses.   The clubhouse is the elephant in the room.  Whether we like it or not, most members prefer lush over watered. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 10:20:46 AM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #183 on: December 15, 2016, 10:23:55 AM »
When we come to a point where everyone wishes to "rent" golf instead of "own" golf then the decline will accelerate even more.  Just look at a housing development once it becomes renters instead of homeowners...or think about second homes and the trend toward renting instead of buying due to insurance and taxes.  We have made public golf where it is too easy not to commit....

So the problem is, at least in part, because of public golf?

For some reason, I'm not really concerned about the market for second homes vs. rentals. Also, if my wife didn't insist on owning our home, I'd happily rent a small apartment.

Brian,
I never said you or anyone else was concerned about second homes.  I used as an example.  And no...public golf is not the problem...muni golf is...Close all the munis and the golf will be ok...


My mistake, but I still don't quite see the connection with that example. I also don't think closing muni courses would lead to increased club membership (are most muni golfers looking to join clubs?). Furthermore, why should muni courses be closed? Is there not a public good in allowing access to decent courses for the general public?

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #184 on: December 15, 2016, 10:24:47 AM »
And no...public golf is not the problem...muni golf is...Close all the munis and the golf will be ok...

For those of us not in the business, or just less informed, could you expound on this?  Thanks.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #185 on: December 15, 2016, 10:25:29 AM »
[quote author=Tim Gavrich link=topic=63888.msg1522230#msg1522230 date=1481769576



As for the F&B question, I don't disagree that having it be minimal is a good way to keep costs down. But a lot of places already have an F&B operation, and it's not very realistic to expect them or their memberships to abandon. That's why I'd want to see a more creative approach, and perhaps one that seeks to compete with area restaurants for "regular" business. But half-assing it, as we see in a lot of places, isn't great.


Tim,
I think it was me that calls them "dorks".  I'll stand by that...dork buys a 500 dollar driver every couple years and wants to fuss about $25 vs $30 green fee...he just needs to get out of the way...

Now for the more important thing...your quote above...why can't they abandon it?  It's a loser and no one makes money in F&B...it's there for golfer convenience...and a place that has a few hundred memebrs can't compete with restaurants that have a customer base of maybe 100,000 or more to pull from...JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #186 on: December 15, 2016, 10:34:12 AM »
Brian Hoover and Brian Finn,

Muni golf uses taxes to build and operate while privately owned, for profit, public courses pay those taxes both on profits and property.  It's unfair.  Imagine if your local car dealer or grocery store had to compete with government run dealers or stores.  Of course if there is an area where the public is not being served by private enterprise then perhaps a muni could be considered.

I'm guilty of having designed and built a few muni's.  On one it was obvious to guys on the city council were mad at the local semi-private country club.  They put him out of business quickly.  The course we did was in the four million range and then the city decided they liked the way a bulk-headed lake wall would look and added another 2 mill... just stupid... 

Golf has enough issues without having to compete with municipal projects that are , with a few exceptions, not efficient.  With  them out of the way the public golf product would be competitive and better.  And those like Bethpage or Torrey....come on...those are not your normal golf course...It really sucks...
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 10:36:19 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #187 on: December 15, 2016, 10:37:48 AM »
Let me guess, you also disagree with the idea of national parks because they might take money out of the pockets of privately owned fun parks, etc.? Am I right?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 10:41:39 AM by Brian Hoover »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #188 on: December 15, 2016, 10:41:37 AM »
Let me guess, you also disagree with the idea of national parks, am I right?

Not at all..that's ridiculous....why would I?  Do you see a private citizen owning thousands of acres and trying to provide the same service to the people?  Hell no you don't...It's simple for me.  I don't believe the government should compete with private enterprise unless they are provided the same rules and regs.  It's proven over and over that private enterprise can provide a better product for less. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #189 on: December 15, 2016, 10:47:08 AM »
Let me guess, you also disagree with the idea of national parks, am I right?

Not at all..that's ridiculous....why would I?  Do you see a private citizen owning thousands of acres and trying to provide the same service to the people?  Hell no you don't...It's simple for me.  I don't believe the government should compete with private enterprise unless they are provided the same rules and regs.  It's proven over and over that private enterprise can provide a better product for less.


I do not accept that it's "proven over and over" that private enterprise is necessarily better or more efficient than government, certainly not in all cases. I interact with both governments and private enterprises in my legal practice. There are efficiencies and inefficiencies with both.


Incidentally, I dropped my club membership this winter. With two small children at home, I can no longer justify the cost and time commitment of a club membership. I will likely be playing muni courses next year because they offer me an opportunity to play decent golf and a decent price. If that makes me a poor consumer, then so be it. I will be trunk slamming in 2017.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 10:48:39 AM by Brian Hoover »

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #190 on: December 15, 2016, 10:48:39 AM »
Ben--


My bad; you're right. I misattributed the "dorks" dig.


Mike--


As for that, could it be because the golf club manufacturers do a better job of marketing their products than golf courses do of marketing theirs? Of course it is! This is what I mean when I call for more creativity on the part of golf course owners. But if a guy playing golf in a backwards hat at a public course is enough to get you in a tizzy, then I don't know what else to do than wish you luck.


But on to a more interesting topic. Your gripes about "unfair" (do you move your ball out of a divot in the fairway?) are noted, I guess, but even so, an excellent municipal golf course has some effect on the people who move to a municipality and pay taxes there.


Which is why I am still struggling to understand your hatred of municipal golf, especially since it's a place where real, tangible positive improvement of golf courses for the masses is happening. I'm not seeing as many privately-owned daily-fees undertaking these sorts of exciting and important renovation/restoration projects. Again, you think the deck is stacked, but maybe it's turned out that some of those privately-owned daily fees were ill-advised in the first place. Didn't you basically admit as much re: Cateechee and its declining base of customers?


Hartford, CT; Wilmington, NC; Savannah, GA; Ft. Myers, FL; Hobbs, NM...all these and other municipalities have decided to improve their cheap golf courses in hopes of retaining existing residents and attracting new ones, especially since golfers tend to make more money and pay more in taxes than non-golfers. My father has fallen in love with the renovated Keney Park course in Hartford; it's greatly revived his enjoyment of the game. It may help keep him and my mother living (and paying taxes) in the area a little longer than if it had remained a neglected eyesore. I have a feeling he's not the only person for whom that may be true.

And guess what: improved access to good-quality, inexpensive golf draws new players to the game. At Sandridge GC here in the snowbird-and-retiree-heavy town of Vero Beach, FL, whenever they host junior clinics, the range is packed. They host junior golf tournaments in the summer and the place is abuzz with kids even in searing summer heat. (FWIW, I see a lot of novice adult golfers working on their swings on the range there, too.) A number of those kids are going to become lifelong golfers. Don't you want there to be as many golfers as possible, in the hopes that some of them will help keep some privately-owned daily-fee courses afloat in the future?

Well-run munis like Sandridge are a model for what pretty much every golf course not at a destination resort should be doing to help replenish the declining stock of golfers. As someone who works in golf and therefore benefits from the golf industry's prosperity more than its decline, doesn't hating municipal golf go squarely against your interests? It definitely goes against mine, both financially speaking and re: my belief that golf is generally a force for good in one's life.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 10:51:58 AM by Tim Gavrich »
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #191 on: December 15, 2016, 10:49:24 AM »
Brian,
Are there privately owned public courses near you?  I would wager they would be a better deal and nicer if the munis were to close. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #192 on: December 15, 2016, 10:53:29 AM »
Brian,
Are there privately owned public courses near you?  I would wager they would be a better deal and nicer if the munis were to close.


As a matter of fact, there is a high-end, privately owned public course about 2 minutes from my house. I could either pay $115 for a weekend round there, or I could pay $43 at a recently renovated muni course 20-30 minutes to the east. I can only play on the weekend, so which course do you think I'm going to choose?


But set me aside, what about kids or those less fortunate to be able to pay the higher rate? Why should the muni be closed? Just to make more money for the private owner? I don't accept that.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 10:55:09 AM by Brian Hoover »

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #193 on: December 15, 2016, 11:01:45 AM »
Brian Hoover and Brian Finn,

Muni golf uses taxes to build and operate while privately owned, for profit, public courses pay those taxes both on profits and property.  It's unfair.  Imagine if your local car dealer or grocery store had to compete with government run dealers or stores.  Of course if there is an area where the public is not being served by private enterprise then perhaps a muni could be considered.

I'm guilty of having designed and built a few muni's.  On one it was obvious to guys on the city council were mad at the local semi-private country club.  They put him out of business quickly.  The course we did was in the four million range and then the city decided they liked the way a bulk-headed lake wall would look and added another 2 mill... just stupid... 

Golf has enough issues without having to compete with municipal projects that are , with a few exceptions, not efficient.  With  them out of the way the public golf product would be competitive and better.  And those like Bethpage or Torrey....come on...those are not your normal golf course...It really sucks...

You lose me completely once you bring into play the concept of fairness. 
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #194 on: December 15, 2016, 11:02:51 AM »
Ben--


My bad; you're right. I misattributed the "dorks" dig.


Mike--


As for that, could it be because the golf club manufacturers do a better job of marketing their products than golf courses do of marketing theirs? Of course it is! This is what I mean when I call for more creativity on the part of golf course owners. But if a guy playing golf in a backwards hat at a public course is enough to get you in a tizzy, then I don't know what else to do than wish you luck.


But on to a more interesting topic. Your gripes about "unfair" (do you move your ball out of a divot in the fairway?) are noted, I guess, but even so, an excellent municipal golf course has some effect on the people who move to a municipality and pay taxes there.


Which is why I am still struggling to understand your hatred of municipal golf, especially since it's a place where real, tangible positive improvement of golf courses for the masses is happening. I'm not seeing as many privately-owned daily-fees undertaking these sorts of exciting and important renovation/restoration projects. Again, you think the deck is stacked, but maybe it's turned out that some of those privately-owned daily fees were ill-advised in the first place. Didn't you basically admit as much re: Cateechee and its declining base of customers?


Hartford, CT; Wilmington, NC; Savannah, GA; Ft. Myers, FL; Hobbs, NM...all these and other municipalities have decided to improve their cheap golf courses in hopes of retaining existing residents and attracting new ones, especially since golfers tend to make more money and pay more in taxes than non-golfers. My father has fallen in love with the renovated Keney Park course in Hartford; it's greatly revived his enjoyment of the game. It may help keep him and my mother living (and paying taxes) in the area a little longer than if it had remained a neglected eyesore. I have a feeling he's not the only person for whom that may be true.

And guess what: improved access to good-quality, inexpensive golf draws new players to the game. At Sandridge GC here in the snowbird-and-retiree-heavy town of Vero Beach, FL, whenever they host junior clinics, the range is packed. They host junior golf tournaments in the summer and the place is abuzz with kids even in searing summer heat. (FWIW, I see a lot of novice adult golfers working on their swings on the range there, too.) A number of those kids are going to become lifelong golfers. Don't you want there to be as many golfers as possible, in the hopes that some of them will help keep some privately-owned daily-fee courses afloat in the future?

Well-run munis like Sandridge are a model for what pretty much every golf course not at a destination resort should be doing to help replenish the declining stock of golfers. As someone who works in golf and therefore benefits from the golf industry's prosperity more than its decline, doesn't hating municipal golf go squarely against your interests? It definitely goes against mine, both financially speaking and re: my belief that golf is generally a force for good in one's life.

Tim,
Thanks for wishing me luck..can always use that.

Sure it goes against what I should be saying since I have benefited from designing/building muni golf.  CATEECHEE IS MUNI GOLF
BTW

Muni golf is not efficient.   It provides so many jobs for management companies that it is a joke. 

I honestly can't see how anyone can think muni golf is not a detriment to public golf in most areas of the country.  Imagine having a stand alone golf shop.  You pay rent to a shopping center and you buy your merchandise a wholesale and resell it to the public in order to try and make a profit and then you pay property taxes, insurance etc before making a profit.  And next door is a municipal owned golf store who opens with no property taxes and is self insured and he buys his merchandise thru GSA contracts. He gives his employees retirement plans, insurance and benefits the other store cannot afford.   It's no different than a golf course scene. 

Most of the business knows where all the BS is buried but you have to get to a point where you don't care politically before you discuss it. I'm there.   It's a BS business...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #195 on: December 15, 2016, 11:08:37 AM »
Brian,
Are there privately owned public courses near you?  I would wager they would be a better deal and nicer if the munis were to close.


As a matter of fact, there is a high-end, privately owned public course about 2 minutes from my house. I could either pay $115 for a weekend round there, or I could pay $43 at a recently renovated muni course 20-30 minutes to the east. I can only play on the weekend, so which course do you think I'm going to choose?


But set me aside, what about kids or those less fortunate to be able to pay the higher rate? Why should the muni be closed? Just to make more money for the private owner? I don't accept that.

Brian,

If the muni you mention were not in existence then the privately owned public would be cheaper and in most cases would provide for the less fortunate.  The 43 dollar rate you are paying is being subsidize by all of the citizen who pay taxes in that community including the privately owned public course.  And the recent renovations do not factor in what they charge. 

I grew up on a privately owned public course...the golf pro was a business man and he took care of all of us kids who were not private club members.  He let us work striping balls or doing odd jobs that a muni could not do...I think it's a much better atmosphere...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #196 on: December 15, 2016, 11:10:55 AM »
Brian,
Are there privately owned public courses near you?  I would wager they would be a better deal and nicer if the munis were to close.


As a matter of fact, there is a high-end, privately owned public course about 2 minutes from my house. I could either pay $115 for a weekend round there, or I could pay $43 at a recently renovated muni course 20-30 minutes to the east. I can only play on the weekend, so which course do you think I'm going to choose?


But set me aside, what about kids or those less fortunate to be able to pay the higher rate? Why should the muni be closed? Just to make more money for the private owner? I don't accept that.

Brian,

If the muni you mention were not in existence then the privately owned public would be cheaper and in most cases would provide for the less fortunate.  The 43 dollar rate you are paying is being subsidize by all of the citizen who pay taxes in that community including the privately owned public course.  And the recent renovations do not factor in what they charge. 

I grew up on a privately owned public course...the golf pro was a business man and he took care of all of us kids who were not private club members.  He let us work striping balls or doing odd jobs that a muni could not do...I think it's a much better atmosphere...


Or, if there were no competition for customers, the high-end course might charge an even higher fee.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #197 on: December 15, 2016, 11:12:34 AM »
It's possible but not likely...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #198 on: December 15, 2016, 11:16:49 AM »
It's possible but not likely...


Yes, because the free market has a proven track record of always doing what is best for the general public. I'm not anti-free market, for the record. But I think there are certain services that ought to be provided for the benefit of the general public, including recreation.

Incidentally, my tax dollars also support the privately owned course with respect to infrastructure, roads, etc. And I'm fine with that.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 11:19:16 AM by Brian Hoover »

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #199 on: December 15, 2016, 11:23:30 AM »
Mike, there's a long history of municipalities providing recreation opportunities for their tax-paying citizens, including golf. Should there be no public parks at all? Should there be no public tennis courts either? No public basketball courts? No public swimming pools?



It seems your hatred of municipal golf is entirely arbitrary. If a municipality can't be allowed to try and compete with other municipalities (this is a type of "free market" - competition between states, towns and cities for residents that is often overlooked) by offering current and potential residents the kind of amenities that will increase and sustain the tax base, then should they not be allowed to do anything at all that might potentially impinge by even a toe on a Randite radically free market? Are you an anarchist?
Senior Writer, GolfPass

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