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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #150 on: December 13, 2016, 07:20:54 AM »
It's all well and good to save a few bucks as long as it's not at the expense of the people you think of as friends. Oddly enough it wasn't all that long ago that friendship separated the dues paying from the daily fee member. Now when the modern golfer ends his round he can slunk back to social media and post both time played and money paid. As golf heads down the Walmart wormhole we can meet up on Amazon and relive the old times. The 19th hole comment section. Who needs friends when everyone can like you.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #151 on: December 13, 2016, 07:53:08 AM »
 ;) :)




Kavanaugh is spot on with his last reply.  A really good club has to displace the Wal-mart mentality amongst the membership . It can be trying.


A few years ago one of our older members did an analysis of how to save the most money by not joining as a regular member and becoming an associate , which we offer as an option for those who don't play much but enjoy social and other privileges with limited golf. Went so far as to print and distribute a spread sheet with why not to join and how to save a few bucks. The group he played with enjoyed special tee time privileges as members , had shotgun starts for special events and consisted of some of our most loyal and best members . Perhaps not the biggest spenders , but good solid folks who enjoyed the club and the camaraderie.


Broke a few of the best from the herd, , explained that we cared greatly about them , but still had a business that we had to run. If there was rampant migration down to the social membership , not only would I be greatly disappointed but would  have to eliminate some of the special stuff from the program in fairness to all the other a members , or dramatically limit the social memberships privileges in the future , didn't want to , but would have to to protect the field . Also had a nice lunch with the perpetrator (lol) and asked him why he would put us in such a spot with his fellows. He went from belligerent to to rather sheepish , as he had always been well treated by management and staff. We lost a few dollars,that year but new leadership emerged within his group and today many remain our best members at age 80 +.  We rewarded them as they couldn't play as much with some perks and reduced dues payments , which they deserved for their loyalty . Sad to say have attended too many of their funerals over the years , but many continue to play nine holes regularly and are the first ones at the bar for all club functions.  If you are very fortunate its more than a simple division problem of rounds divided by dues .










Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #152 on: December 13, 2016, 07:59:18 AM »
One very simple move that could be made that would benefit ALL clubs would be if everyone only offered discounted green fees to bona fide members of a recognised golf club as evidenced by a valid handicap certificate or Howdidido.


Thats called a county card.  I hope that one day YORKS, Wales and Scotland can somehow join the system.  It works very well in most of England. 


Mike Y...I am not in the least worried about course closure and do not feel in the least compelled to pay more than the going rate for a green fee.  The way I see it, many courses have survived beyond their sell by date.  What will be will be, but its laughable to expect customers to donate money to courses because the owners don't know how to charge the proper amount. 


Ciao
The problem that exists (mainly up North) is if a golf club prices itself improperly (perhaps via the golfnow model) it takes a lot of the traffic away from the one that priced itself properly. The properly priced club gets taken down financially. The majority of people want cheap golf full stop. The amount of people that want a higher quality of course and are prepared to pay for it is a lot less than the folk on this forum think. If a decent say "Stockport" club prices it's course at £20, it soaks up a lot of the tourist play.
No nice answer really but as anyone that has followed my 10 years of posts will remember me saying "if you create a situation where it is cheaper to not be a member then you are heading for death spiral".
Price integrity is paramount but it is hard to do if everyone around you has dropped their pants,

Adrian

Thats the nature of an over-built market....the lesser clubs struggle.  I do think you are mistaken to some degree for the UK market.  Enough people will pay enough money to keep the best courses afloat.  In 20 years nobody will remember the courses that go because they are not memorable.  The concept of waiting room clubs has never wained.  Hang around the game long enough and we all learn the clubs we want to join if circumstances are right. In the big scheme of things, in England it doesn't cost that much more to belong to a club with a good course than it does to belong to a dogtrack club.  Quality of design and playing experience matter a ton.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #153 on: December 13, 2016, 08:01:09 AM »
Sean,


I think the county card scheme is also a bit of a double edged sword in that it reduces the GF revenue but at least you have to be a member of a club to have one. The problems will start when one of the clubs come up on the smart idea of members who pay a smaller subscription for very limited golf but get the county card. This has not happened to date only because of Golf Now and the like.


I fully understand that most clubs want people to be able to book and pay online. I also understand that many clubs feel having their own system to enable this is beyond their means though I think this is mistaken. What I do not understand is why neither the golfing unions nor the R&A have not set up such a system to do this for the clubs. Is this not exactly the sort of thing that they should be doing?




Jon
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 11:48:30 AM by Jon Wiggett »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #154 on: December 13, 2016, 08:21:07 AM »
;) :)




Kavanaugh is spot on with his last reply.  A really good club has to displace the Wal-mart mentality amongst the membership . It can be trying.


A few years ago one of our older members did an analysis of how to save the most money by not joining as a regular member and becoming an associate , which we offer as an option for those who don't play much but enjoy social and other privileges with limited golf. Went so far as to print and distribute a spread sheet with why not to join and how to save a few bucks. The group he played with enjoyed special tee time privileges as members , had shotgun starts for special events and consisted of some of our most loyal and best members . Perhaps not the biggest spenders , but good solid folks who enjoyed the club and the camaraderie.


Broke a few of the best from the herd, , explained that we cared greatly about them , but still had a business that we had to run. If there was rampant migration down to the social membership , not only would I be greatly disappointed but would  have to eliminate some of the special stuff from the program in fairness to all the other a members , or dramatically limit the social memberships privileges in the future , didn't want to , but would have to to protect the field . Also had a nice lunch with the perpetrator (lol) and asked him why he would put us in such a spot with his fellows. He went from belligerent to to rather sheepish , as he had always been well treated by management and staff. We lost a few dollars,that year but new leadership emerged within his group and today many remain our best members at age 80 +.  We rewarded them as they couldn't play as much with some perks and reduced dues payments , which they deserved for their loyalty . Sad to say have attended too many of their funerals over the years , but many continue to play nine holes regularly and are the first ones at the bar for all club functions.  If you are very fortunate its more than a simple division problem of rounds divided by dues .


Archie,


This is exactly what we are currently going through. A mass exodus to social memberships because someone did the math and decided that with winter, tournaments and maintenance schedules it was cheaper to become part time buddies thinking we would be around to play at their convenience. Hell, if you play it right you can not pay dues in the winter and come back when the weather turns. I'm losing friends over this, and by friends I mean a guy who gave me a bottle of Pappy for Christmas last year. The problem is not so much that they are screwing the club as they have to sit there and tell you about it like those if us who pay the bills are a bunch of suckers.


Funny thing, people of character have little choice but to either turn the other cheek or resign. Courses are closing because...

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #155 on: December 13, 2016, 08:27:49 AM »
Jon


I think the county card polices itself.  Very people are going to take advantage and turn up to play more than a few times a year at a particular course using the card.  I can see your point about a cheaper membership category still offering county card, especially with these new deals where less is paid up front and the member pays a green fee each game.  If it were me in charge of the scheme this wouldn't be allowed...maybe it isn't...I don't know. 


I do think the golf unions should start offering the concept of mass schemes to member clubs...an internet booking scheme would be a good start. Acting on behalf of loads of clubs should ensure a good system could be offered to member clubs at a good price...buying power and all that.  Its almost too late now...a huge percentgae of clubs looking for lots of visitor play already have online booking systems.  I really don't know how my club's system works, but I do think the booking system is tied in with everything...including the club card which is used for food, drinks, accessing member account for news, comps, handicap info, booking tee times etc.  Its an all in one system.  I don't know what it cost, but it wouldn't be cheap.  That said, it is an excellent system.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #156 on: December 13, 2016, 09:09:03 AM »
Jon


I think the county card polices itself.  Very people are going to take advantage and turn up to play more than a few times a year at a particular course using the card.  I can see your point about a cheaper membership category still offering county card, especially with these new deals where less is paid up front and the member pays a green fee each game.  If it were me in charge of the scheme this wouldn't be allowed...maybe it isn't...I don't know. 


I do think the golf unions should start offering the concept of mass schemes to member clubs...an internet booking scheme would be a good start. Acting on behalf of loads of clubs should ensure a good system could be offered to member clubs at a good price...buying power and all that.  Its almost too late now...a huge percentgae of clubs looking for lots of visitor play already have online booking systems.  I really don't know how my club's system works, but I do think the booking system is tied in with everything...including the club card which is used for food, drinks, accessing member account for news, comps, handicap info, booking tee times etc.  Its an all in one system.  I don't know what it cost, but it wouldn't be cheap.  That said, it is an excellent system.

Ciao
County cards are massively abused already. It is now a terrible idea because it has become a national discount card. There are already opportunities to get them with buying a smaller £50 type membership, many counties give them away. People pass county cards around, borrow from friends, but no one in the pro shop checks. So it has become another spike, though a much less evil one that the ponce schemes.


The original idea was you could play the courses in YOUR county ONCE per year.


Location will play the biggest part in course closure and it could get some good ones to buckle. Of course the best courses will survive and the over-supply will hit the newer golf courses most many of which have harsh penalties with high business rates and subject to VAT.


The architecture is very low down on the consumer hit list. This forums opinion is massively distorted. I played one of the worst golf courses ever a year or so ago, trees in the middle of the fairway, 90 degree doglegs, yet I still enjoyed it and I enjoyed it because of A) The company B) The weather. The course was not in the UK though.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 11:45:09 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

BCowan

Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #157 on: December 13, 2016, 11:20:00 AM »
;) :)




Kavanaugh is spot on with his last reply.  A really good club has to displace the Wal-mart mentality amongst the membership . It can be trying.


A few years ago one of our older members did an analysis of how to save the most money by not joining as a regular member and becoming an associate , which we offer as an option for those who don't play much but enjoy social and other privileges with limited golf. Went so far as to print and distribute a spread sheet with why not to join and how to save a few bucks. The group he played with enjoyed special tee time privileges as members , had shotgun starts for special events and consisted of some of our most loyal and best members . Perhaps not the biggest spenders , but good solid folks who enjoyed the club and the camaraderie.


Broke a few of the best from the herd, , explained that we cared greatly about them , but still had a business that we had to run. If there was rampant migration down to the social membership , not only would I be greatly disappointed but would  have to eliminate some of the special stuff from the program in fairness to all the other a members , or dramatically limit the social memberships privileges in the future , didn't want to , but would have to to protect the field . Also had a nice lunch with the perpetrator (lol) and asked him why he would put us in such a spot with his fellows. He went from belligerent to to rather sheepish , as he had always been well treated by management and staff. We lost a few dollars,that year but new leadership emerged within his group and today many remain our best members at age 80 +.  We rewarded them as they couldn't play as much with some perks and reduced dues payments , which they deserved for their loyalty . Sad to say have attended too many of their funerals over the years , but many continue to play nine holes regularly and are the first ones at the bar for all club functions.  If you are very fortunate its more than a simple division problem of rounds divided by dues .


Archie,


This is exactly what we are currently going through. A mass exodus to social memberships because someone did the math and decided that with winter, tournaments and maintenance schedules it was cheaper to become part time buddies thinking we would be around to play at their convenience. Hell, if you play it right you can not pay dues in the winter and come back when the weather turns. I'm losing friends over this, and by friends I mean a guy who gave me a bottle of Pappy for Christmas last year. The problem is not so much that they are screwing the club as they have to sit there and tell you about it like those if us who pay the bills are a bunch of suckers.


Funny thing, people of character have little choice but to either turn the other cheek or resign. Courses are closing because...

It's because your system is flawed.  Too many membership types.  With the Individual model everyone wins, no junior, intermediate, and full member categories.   Deep down your just scared to let women have a vote.  You could also pay to have 2 votes by paying for your wife's membership even if she doesn't play.  Courses are closing because....  flawed model...

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #158 on: December 13, 2016, 11:24:39 AM »
Nobody votes. Yeah, voting...that's the answer to all our problems.

BCowan

Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #159 on: December 13, 2016, 11:31:38 AM »
That is a good thing.   ;) .   It's kinda like what golf instructors do with ones golf swing.  Simplify it, less moving parts.  Less moving parts (membership categories) more efficient golf swing (healthier club).  Bigger pool of potential members=golden age club that doesn't close.   Less moving parts is the answer.... 

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #160 on: December 14, 2016, 06:54:46 AM »
 8)


Not believing Ben's one world order for golf works in my neighborhood but it might in his .

BCowan

Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #161 on: December 14, 2016, 10:14:46 AM »
Miss representing Ben's Big World theory that is flawless is why clubs are closing.  I'm not the one that has problems with members going a rogue  ;)

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #162 on: December 14, 2016, 11:46:19 AM »
A few random thoughts here...

Doing away with junior levels of membership virtually guarantees the future ruin of a club in 15-25 years. I shudder to think what the golf landscape is going to be here in Florida in 2035, especially at clubs that haven't convinced their older, most wealthy members to ensure the strong legacy of the club by being okay with the club aggressively pricing junior (under 30, 30-40, 40-50) membership categories.

One reason why people aren't joining or hanging out much at golf clubs - public or private - is because the main traditional alternative hangout locations, e.g. restaurants/bars and their own homes, have become cozier/more fun at a faster rate than golf clubs/country clubs. If you're an average private club member (or an average avid public golfer) your home is probably pretty nice. You may well have a better TV than your club does, and a comfier chair and room in which to watch it after golf. Plus you can change the channel when you want, watch Netflix, check your DVRed programs, grab yourself a beer you've already bought whenever you want, etc. etc. The evolution of the whole "man cave" concept is affecting how people hang out, such that your club would need a uniquely awesome (but somehow not prohibitively expensively made, to keep from pricing too many people out) vibe in order to consistently pull you away from your living room or the newest hip craft beer place in town.

And on the private side, most importantly, you can happily invite whoever you want to come over and watch the golf tournament or the football game at your place, whereas there's still a measure of potential discomfort/awkwardness involved in being a guest at your friend's private club - be it the course or the bar/restaurant or both - especially multiple times in a relatively short period.To this point, I'd wager that the vast majority of F&B operations at private golf clubs simply aren't good enough to limit themselves to a maximum clientele size of, say, 300 people + periodic guests. And F&B operations at most municipal and public courses will never attract non-golfers. Furthermore, restaurant food is getting better and more interesting all the time, and yet all golf clubs' lunch menus continue to look virtually (boringly) identical. Note to Lovely Hills Golf Course: best of luck making a cheeseburger that's blows away what can be enjoyed less expensively at the Five Guys a couple miles down the road.If you do want F&B to work for you, then I think the play is to 1) get better by hiring a real chef with some potentially bold ideas, and 2) if you're an otherwise private club, open the restaurant up (and, for goodness' sakes, market it) to the wider public at least a few nights a week. But again, no one's going to come if it sucks.It comes down to the need for creative solutions and outside-the-box thinking from an industry that seems to be less disposed to it than others, for a variety of reasons that I won't enumerate for fear of derailing this thread, which I've found interesting and important so far.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #163 on: December 14, 2016, 02:37:03 PM »
A few random thoughts here...

Doing away with junior levels of membership virtually guarantees the future ruin of a club in 15-25 years. I shudder to think what the golf landscape is going to be here in Florida in 2035, especially at clubs that haven't convinced their older, most wealthy members to ensure the strong legacy of the club by being okay with the club aggressively pricing junior (under 30, 30-40, 40-50) membership categories.

One reason why people aren't joining or hanging out much at golf clubs - public or private - is because the main traditional alternative hangout locations, e.g. restaurants/bars and their own homes, have become cozier/more fun at a faster rate than golf clubs/country clubs. If you're an average private club member (or an average avid public golfer) your home is probably pretty nice. You may well have a better TV than your club does, and a comfier chair and room in which to watch it after golf. Plus you can change the channel when you want, watch Netflix, check your DVRed programs, grab yourself a beer you've already bought whenever you want, etc. etc. The evolution of the whole "man cave" concept is affecting how people hang out, such that your club would need a uniquely awesome (but somehow not prohibitively expensively made, to keep from pricing too many people out) vibe in order to consistently pull you away from your living room or the newest hip craft beer place in town.

And on the private side, most importantly, you can happily invite whoever you want to come over and watch the golf tournament or the football game at your place, whereas there's still a measure of potential discomfort/awkwardness involved in being a guest at your friend's private club - be it the course or the bar/restaurant or both - especially multiple times in a relatively short period.To this point, I'd wager that the vast majority of F&B operations at private golf clubs simply aren't good enough to limit themselves to a maximum clientele size of, say, 300 people + periodic guests. And F&B operations at most municipal and public courses will never attract non-golfers. Furthermore, restaurant food is getting better and more interesting all the time, and yet all golf clubs' lunch menus continue to look virtually (boringly) identical. Note to Lovely Hills Golf Course: best of luck making a cheeseburger that's blows away what can be enjoyed less expensively at the Five Guys a couple miles down the road.If you do want F&B to work for you, then I think the play is to 1) get better by hiring a real chef with some potentially bold ideas, and 2) if you're an otherwise private club, open the restaurant up (and, for goodness' sakes, market it) to the wider public at least a few nights a week. But again, no one's going to come if it sucks.It comes down to the need for creative solutions and outside-the-box thinking from an industry that seems to be less disposed to it than others, for a variety of reasons that I won't enumerate for fear of derailing this thread, which I've found interesting and important so far.

Hmmmmm....why not just burn down the clubhouses and have a smaller hangout spot.  You can't make anything on F&B and as the younger guys take over I think they would be fine with that.  IMHO the younger guys have many more dorks playing than when I came up.  Golf was a semi-sport and you played it between seasons etc and then when you got a job were able to join a club you let golf become your dominant sport.  A hot dog, baloney sandwich or pimento cheese was there to eat not to discuss the quality( same for all th craft beers)  Now we talk of the younger generation and them not being in the game.....well...not sure they ever were.  Many of the guys I know would not want to be in a club feeling they were getting a better deal....Clubhouses and what they create suck..
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #164 on: December 14, 2016, 02:58:48 PM »
Clubhouses are the last bastion of the GolfCuck of which sadly I am one.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #165 on: December 14, 2016, 03:04:29 PM »
Clubhouses are the last bastion of the GolfCuck of which sadly I am one.

I am too...that's why I don't nee specialty sandwiches, tv's over urinals or any of that crap....and I don't ant some guy in there with his cap on backwards paying 1/2 price dues...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #166 on: December 14, 2016, 03:29:03 PM »
Fish tacos and blood orange remoulade will save golf courses.

BCowan

Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #167 on: December 14, 2016, 03:43:33 PM »
A few random thoughts here...

Doing away with junior levels of membership virtually guarantees the future ruin of a club in 15-25 years. I shudder to think what the golf landscape is going to be here in Florida in 2035, especially at clubs that haven't convinced their older, most wealthy members to ensure the strong legacy of the club by being okay with the club aggressively pricing junior (under 30, 30-40, 40-50) membership categories.

One reason why people aren't joining or hanging out much at golf clubs - public or private - is because the main traditional alternative hangout locations, e.g. restaurants/bars and their own homes, have become cozier/more fun at a faster rate than golf clubs/country clubs. If you're an average private club member (or an average avid public golfer) your home is probably pretty nice. You may well have a better TV than your club does, and a comfier chair and room in which to watch it after golf. Plus you can change the channel when you want, watch Netflix, check your DVRed programs, grab yourself a beer you've already bought whenever you want, etc. etc. The evolution of the whole "man cave" concept is affecting how people hang out, such that your club would need a uniquely awesome (but somehow not prohibitively expensively made, to keep from pricing too many people out) vibe in order to consistently pull you away from your living room or the newest hip craft beer place in town.

And on the private side, most importantly, you can happily invite whoever you want to come over and watch the golf tournament or the football game at your place, whereas there's still a measure of potential discomfort/awkwardness involved in being a guest at your friend's private club - be it the course or the bar/restaurant or both - especially multiple times in a relatively short period.To this point, I'd wager that the vast majority of F&B operations at private golf clubs simply aren't good enough to limit themselves to a maximum clientele size of, say, 300 people + periodic guests. And F&B operations at most municipal and public courses will never attract non-golfers. Furthermore, restaurant food is getting better and more interesting all the time, and yet all golf clubs' lunch menus continue to look virtually (boringly) identical. Note to Lovely Hills Golf Course: best of luck making a cheeseburger that's blows away what can be enjoyed less expensively at the Five Guys a couple miles down the road.If you do want F&B to work for you, then I think the play is to 1) get better by hiring a real chef with some potentially bold ideas, and 2) if you're an otherwise private club, open the restaurant up (and, for goodness' sakes, market it) to the wider public at least a few nights a week. But again, no one's going to come if it sucks.It comes down to the need for creative solutions and outside-the-box thinking from an industry that seems to be less disposed to it than others, for a variety of reasons that I won't enumerate for fear of derailing this thread, which I've found interesting and important so far.

The individual membership model would be as affordable or same price as Junior membership(which clubs vary in age of Junior), thus eliminating the caste system you are fond of.  Giving said 23-35 a voice in voting and not doubling their dues when they are 35 or 40.  Everyone is equal.  Kids can play for free on mom or dad's individual membership till they are 18-22 (in non prime times same as most private clubs), or whatever age club considers someone an adult now  ::) .  Plus it is much more affordable to potential single women under 35 who are large growing sector of potential members.  I'd say many of my current friends that are private club members now, didn't grow up at a private club, they either caddied or were a cart boy in their youth.  Half of the kids that grew up at a private club joined one in their 30's but not all.  So if a few more places in each city shift away from 325 family member model at $400 a month to 600 individual members limit at $200 means more chance of clubhouse breaking even and more potential pool of members.  If my wife decides to take up golf, I would take her to a local muni and play, if she got hooked to the game I'd or she'd pay another $200 a month for her to be a member.  Plus you would have a larger pool of retiring golfers golfers who could justify $200 a month verse $400 when their wife doesn't play.  Higher cost of living add accordingly.  Higher area doesn't most likely need to address their model due to lots of discretionary money floating around. 

Tim,
 
 I agree with vibe of the place and hanging out after a round is very important.  You need larger amount of members so clubhouse can possibly break even. 

Mike,

   I hear you to a point.  Fish or Steak Tacos instead of 3 different steaks to choose from.  I'm totally cool with burger or perch sandwich and a Bass Ale.  No backwards hats. 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 03:48:05 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #168 on: December 14, 2016, 09:39:36 PM »
Ben, it's funny you derogate me as fond of a "caste system" when you're the one dismissing the cadre of younger, serious golfers as "dorks." Are you actually suggesting that members of younger generations adopting golf as their main recreation is somehow a bad thing?


In all seriousness, your solution of bigger membership rolls and concomitantly lower dues is definitely a good one. It seems so sensible that I wonder why it isn't being more widely adopted.


As for the F&B question, I don't disagree that having it be minimal is a good way to keep costs down. But a lot of places already have an F&B operation, and it's not very realistic to expect them or their memberships to abandon. That's why I'd want to see a more creative approach, and perhaps one that seeks to compete with area restaurants for "regular" business. But half-assing it, as we see in a lot of places, isn't great.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #169 on: December 14, 2016, 10:53:46 PM »
Adrian,

   The 2 go hand in hand.  Without member dues, it's tough to make it.  The unaccompanied player should pay more, due to the fact you have members.  Mike is talking about guaranteed income from season passes and members.  It's why our U of M course loses money (no members) and the other course makes money (95% members).  The committed golfer (the member) should receive a better deal then the golfer who plays 1-5 times a year.  So take away your members and tell me at what level you are going to maintain the course?

Since we're ganging up on Ben, let me point out that in some golfing circles, guest fees are modest so the member can comfortably cover his guests if he/she so desires.  In fact, I was once told by a member at a prestigious eastern club that the way it works is he pays the greens fees, and you reciprocate by paying for the caddies.

In the last ten years or so, I pay the guest fees always, unless my guest(s) insist on paying, in which case that's fine.  The guests have made an effort to come and see me, and it's nice to have them visit and play the home course.

There are some clubs out there which are expensive to operate and maintain, and some of them suggest a nominal guest fee, so guests can afford the fee, or members will feel comfortable springing for the round.  It's a nice way to do things.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #170 on: December 15, 2016, 03:23:38 AM »
Ben

Don't lose sight that the Blue course is a university course and that being the case students and faculty should be allowed to play for a very cheap rate. So "losing" money isn't an issue otherwise all extracurricular facilities would be deemed as money losers.  I think it is damn generous that the university allows alumnus to play for a very resonable rate especially since there is now an official "visitor" rate which is quite expensive...as I think it should be with the exception of perhaps Michigan residents as tax payers who support the university being given some sort of concession.

Kirk

In my experience guest fees in the US tend to be quite expensive.  Its almost as if clubs have a secret policy that they do not wish members to bring guests.  I don't understand this approach, but there it is. 

Tim

If a guy wants to hang out in his man cave rather than socialize, he isn't really clubable.  If clubs need to rely on f&B and club ambience to survive, then the game is lost.

Ciao 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 03:48:21 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #171 on: December 15, 2016, 04:17:55 AM »

The original idea was you could play the courses in YOUR county ONCE per year.



I recall these days.
Then the CC kind of morphed into once p/a at any scheme club in any county rather than just your own clubs county.
Now I note that some clubs are restricting/specifying which neighbouring counties they will allow CC's from. Some clubs, but not many, even seem to be recording your CC card details/number.....not sure they ever check on attempted second usage within the year though.
An English CC doesn't seemingly apply in Wales or Scotland though. I presume the opposite is also the case but am not sure.


The other area that has altered playing patterns across the UK is club open amateur events. Many, many more of these seem to be arising all the time and the entry fee is usually well below greenfee or even CC rates.


Plus more inter-club matches seem to be occuring, for which, as they are reciprocal, no fee to play the course is usually charged, although something is usually paid for food/beverages. And team sizes in inter-club matches seem to be increasing.


Plus of course societies searching for cheapness.


Lots of pressures on price.......unlike the days many years ago when some clubs charged a high green fee to keep the riff-raff away - maybe some still do!?


Atb




Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #172 on: December 15, 2016, 05:17:22 AM »

The original idea was you could play the courses in YOUR county ONCE per year.



I recall these days.
Then the CC kind of morphed into once p/a at any scheme club in any county rather than just your own clubs county.
Now I note that some clubs are restricting/specifying which neighbouring counties they will allow CC's from. Some clubs, but not many, even seem to be recording your CC card details/number.....not sure they ever check on attempted second usage within the year though.
An English CC doesn't seemingly apply in Wales or Scotland though. I presume the opposite is also the case but am not sure.



That once a year deal still applies if clubs enforce it...but many don't because they need the income.  The restriction to courses in county ended right about when the English Union raised their fee to members to provide a "free" county card...that was years ago. Many top notch clubs are not in the scheme.  I am noticing that more clubs are not really honouring the co card in winter and more restrictions apply in season.  Winter green fees have gone up this year.  A couple of standby clubs we always visit in the winter are now quite expensive...Sutton Coldfield for instance now wants £40 in winter...too much imo.  Huntercombe raised their fee to £50...definitely too much for winter conditions. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #173 on: December 15, 2016, 06:51:38 AM »

The other area that has altered playing patterns across the UK is club open amateur events. Many, many more of these seem to be arising all the time and the entry fee is usually well below greenfee or even CC rates.



A big phenomenon in NW England is the rise of the amateur "tour", of which there are two main ones . These consist of weekly open events at prestigious courses at prices well below the normal green fee. Clubs such as Formby, Alwoodley, and Ganton are regular venues, which goes to show how quickly things are changing. I doubt that any of these clubs would have contemplated this kind of thing a few years ago...


http://fgt.dns2go.com/visitor/opens.esp


This "tour" is registered as a golf club and administers CONGU handicaps. There is literally no need to belong to a conventional golf club any more.


This growing trend is great for golfers who can get out during the week and who love to play a variety of quality courses. It is yet another nail in the coffin for run of the mill golf clubs.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 07:19:45 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #174 on: December 15, 2016, 07:27:31 AM »

The other area that has altered playing patterns across the UK is club open amateur events. Many, many more of these seem to be arising all the time and the entry fee is usually well below greenfee or even CC rates.



This "tour" is registered as a golf club and administers CONGU handicaps. There is literally no need to belong to a conventional golf club any more.


If you live in the north and if you can play a lot of weekday golf.  The tour you reference is a scaled down (in terms of quality and cost) version of the Volvo tour which has been around about 10 years

http://www.eagt.co.uk/tour/tourschedule.aspx?S=56e903ba-268b-4538-8e8b-f6ca25d2d093

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 07:33:26 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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