[Ronald Montesano]

The par 5 holes are where Ross evens the score. The 5th and 6th at Mid-Pines are contrasting holes. The former plays downhill and short, but a pond on the left sings to the careless. The putting surface sits a bit up and turned to the approach. The par-5 greens at DC sit vertically, but this first, angled one at Mid-Pines tells us that something is afoot. The next, long hole is immediate, and plays uphill and longer than its predecessor. There's no lake for burial, but there is plenty of sandy waste along the way, and a green-bunkering scheme that says, yes, you can run it in, but not from too far out (and if too far out, not to the left 2/3 of the surface.)


For brevity's sake (ha, ha) I'll run through 10 and 15 quickly. The former plays uphill, similar to #6 but in no way identical. Its green is more difficult to access than on its earlier brethren, due to one more, visually-intimidating bunker. 15 is a ski run (and I've played it with snow on the ground, ergo the comparison) that leaves you breathless if you can simply find the fairway. If not, you're banging around the pines and cursing your fortune/dearth of skill. Like #5, it is well within reach of two strong metals, so gamblers, rejoice! It finishes with a large green that is not too protected by sand.


In contrast to the par-5 holes at DC, I fell immediately and madly in lust with the long holes at Mid-Pines. Variety and challenge elevated them above the long holes at DC and evened the "how many times would I play each course if given 10 total plays" scorecard.

[Sean_A]

Ronald

All archies struggle with designing good par 5s that make sense for the vast majority of players.  So on that score, Dormie is automatically a leg up for only having 3 par 5 to MP's 4    That said, Dormie's 5s are a very odd lot; they certainly fit the diversity bill far more than MP's do.  However, in this case I am not convinced that is a positive.  The only par 5 I really liked of the 36 holes is MP's 10th.  I really didn't like Dormie's 10th or 17th.  The 17th for exactly the reasons you cited...plus the big hitter gains a massive advantage.  In fact, Dormie has a few too many holes where the big hitter gains a big advantage, often with these so called speed slots.  The 10th is just plain weird with a hidden hazard left and the fairway sloping to this blind trouble....to me this is poor design.  If you are going to build a hole leaning toward water, let me see the water or make the landing zone very wide.  I guess MP's 5th is somewhat like this as well, but at least there is the element of being able to reach the green in two with a daring drive.  Dormie's 10th has more slogging to do after the drive.  To be fair, I don't believe Ross envisioned handicap players reaching water on #5 and I expect C&C's hands were tied with environmental regulations.  Ya do what ya can.

All in all, neither set of 5s really do much for me, but I would take MP's as the lesser of two evils.  If you want to please with me 5s, start off with no more than two 

Ciao

[BCowan]

I disagree with a lot that has been said.  Both course need 2,000 plus trees whacked and each have a hole that needs attention.


I think that MP 5th should be converted into par 4.  The 6th and 10th at MP are the best 2 par 5s and have been greatly enhanced since the renovation. 


I agree the 10th at DC is odd and weak, but the 17th is world class and I can't wait to play it every time. my 30 handicap father in law played it just fine last year. 


I'd give nod to MP on the 5s.  The par 3s I'd give nod to MP again because the short 115 yarder looked mailed in garbage at DC.  When people site similar yardages I question if they are raters. 

[David_Madison]

Sean,


You can sorta' have your wish as far as the number of par-5's at MP. MP #5 is played as a par-4 when they hold mini-tour events there. And #16 when played from the old blue tee could also be played as a par-4, except that Kyle Franz didn't want the course to end with five consecutive par-4's. So he extended the tee back to make sure that it could be a par-5 for tournament players.


The 5's at MP are far more beguiling than the ones at Dormie. They require better shotmaking and reward the player who can work the ball both ways. They also require far more wedge/short-game precision to get into close birdie range, especially if the greens are firm and fast and balls are running on the slopes.


The 3's at MP are a lot harder than Dormie's. I often jokingly refer to them as short but tricky par-5's, as there are so many ways to double bogey them without the involvement of water or OB. Three of the holes yardages don't vary all that much, but the shots required to successful navigate them are all drastically different and their effective length is spread out more than the score card indicates.


I understand your point on the cross-hazard thing. But the existence of cross hazards isn't necessarily a good thing. #17's doesn't really work, and #18's doesn't make any sense. It turns the tee shot into a boring lay-up rather than any meaningful strategy or shot making precision. There's just no comparison between the two courses' finishing hole.


There is so much more to learn at MP from repeated plays, and the ground contours at MP crush Dormie's. There's a reason why MP is considered to be one of, if not the best hickory courses in the US. Dormie is a much simpler course designed for a modern aerial game, although there are plenty of run-up opportunities as that's just what C&C typically do. MP is all about the ground contours, starting with tee shots that have to be flighted correctly to keep the ball on the proper sides of the fairways, and then following through to your approach shots where the slopes have to be factored in or you'll never hit a green and leave yourself with an easily manageable putt.


 

[Tom Fagerli]

That pond on No 5 MP gets more action than it should - or at least it did yesterday when my ProV was unceremoniously topped into it from 205 out ! Hitting off that downhill lie to an uphill green poses its own set of difficulties!
On No 6 my playing partner hammered a three metal from 260 out (his third) and bounced it up the false front. A thing of beauty that can happen when it hasn't rained in weeks!
MP is playing perfectly at present. Nice and dry.

[David_Madison]

Tom -- Agreed! The course is perfectly tuned right now.

I was out there yesterday with my wife and son and we had a great time with the course running as it was. #4 (the hole with the much discussed tree) showed a whole new dimension with the ball running as it was. I drove it into a greenside bunker and my son threaded a perfect drive up the left center. It took the slope and ended up just on the green. He's never driven a par-4 before and it was a huge thrill for him.

[Ronald Montesano]

I detect two different audiences in play: those who have restricted visits (say, 4 or fewer to each of the 2 courses) and others who have extraordinary experience over both. The one audience (hopefully limited) that I fear, is the one that plays the majority of its golf over one of the two tracks. If said contributor were to respond "well, duh, that's why I play there~it's the better course," my retort would be "does that allow you to be unbiased?" The answer is no; if I play a dog track enough times, I'll find redeeming qualities.


I presume that if a fine fellow like David Madison and his fine son were to have together driven the short par 4 14th at Dormie, their affection for DC would have grown as it did for MP.


As for the 10th at Dormie, the green is far from the water. The 8th is the hole that runs along the water, not the 10th.


As for the short par three, that Ben Co. will never grow to like, it's impossible to mail in a short hole like that. If you play the 6th at Dunes Club in Michigan from the blueberry tee (or whatever it is that they call it) you take a daring 185-yard hole and turn it into a 105-yard pitch, from a different angle. The green on the wee one at DC is also beguiling and challenging, akin to the 13th at Merion's East course.

[David_Madison]

Ronald,


I play a lot of my golf at MP because it provides a great playing experience time after time. I'm a member there (and Pine Needles) and split my rounds roughly 7/3 in favor of MP. Roughly half my rounds at MP (and probably 1/3 at PN) are with my hickories, and there's just nothing around that's so well suited for play with these clubs.


AS for Dormie, I've played the course a bunch of times. I've driven #14 and that still hasn't changed my mind about the place. I love C&C's work, and probably my favorite course in NC is OTC, especially after their work out there. But Dormie sits near the bottom of rankings for C&C courses, and I can't imagine that changing no matter how many times I play it. I like it, it's a good course with a number of good holes, but that's as far as it goes. The first time I played it was on my birthday shortly after it opened, and I really wanted to love it and then perhaps join there. But it just didn't do it for me, certainly not enough to entice me to play most of my golf there.

[Ronald Montesano]

That's a great assessment, David. Thank you for sharing that background story. I've had the fortune to play Dormie twice, MP twice and PN once. There are some terrific holes at PN, but there were too many that left me feeling meh to rate it higher than MP. I would play MP over PN at that same 7-3 ratio. I would probably go 6-4, MP over DC, down from 5-5 two weeks ago (or whenever this thread began.) That would end up being 6-4, DC over PN (I guess.) I'm enjoying the direction of this thread, and I can't wait to get to my par-four assessment/comparison/contrast of DC and MP.

[Jay Mickle]

Par 4 to MP Ross's strong suit and 2 of his very best 4 and 12.

[Tom Fagerli]

Par 4 to MP Ross's strong suit and 2 of his very best 4 and 12.

And that dastardly No 9.

[Jay Mickle]

MP also has the finast finishing triumverate around. 1, 7 and 14 are solid. Dormie has some fine 4s also bu a couple of suspect ones.

[Chris Gibson]

Jay,


While I agree that 4 and 12 at Mid Pines are really good, I so wish that Kyle had cleared a little more room to the left on 12 to make the angle a bit better into the green. More reward if you're willing to take the risk of hitting it further left. And while we certainly realize how good the last three at Mid Pines are, I think the par 4 most overlooked is 7. Some of Kyle's best work, in my opinion.


Chris

[David_Madison]

Ronald - I agree with Jay's general assessment of the par-4's with #'s 4 and 12 being stand-out holes. Holes such as #7's, 14, and 16-18 are top notch as well. The neat thing about them is that so many of them require one shot shape off the tee and then the opposite for the approach, or things switch from hole to hole. For example, draw #16 off the tee and then a soft fade into the green. #17 requires a fade off the tee and then a drawn approach. And then back to a drawn tee shot on #18. #12 requires a draw off the tee and then a faded approach. Even #3, which we all agree needs attention, calls for a faded tee shot and then a drawn approach. The only variety element that seems to be missing is long, stern holes, 450+ from the tips, and frankly that's not much of miss with everything else in play.

[Sean_A]

For mine, the pick of MP's 4s are 4, 12 & 17 with the 4th being the only truly great hole on the course.

Dormie's stand out 4s are 3, 4 & 15 (controversially). 

Ronald, no, I am thinking of Dormie's 10th with junk up the left...the blind wetland hazard. I never said the green was near the water...in fact, the green is the only thing I really like about the hole.  In general, the greens are Dormie's trump card; great variety yet incredibly subtle looking.

Just pointing out one thing to keep in mind. I think both MP and Dormie are great courses...or if not great, miles above average. So the comments should be taken in that context...hyper critical.  To put the point in a finer context, I don't believe Old Town is that much better than either of these courses.  I like OT more by a wide margin because of the style of course it is, but its only a bit better than MP and Dormie.

Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

Thanks for the clarification, Sean. I remember that wetland and don't love it much at all. I guess they had to skirt it, since they wanted the green in that spot. It is a fine green, no question.


I like everyone's comments on the par four holes. If I get around to it in the next day or two, I'll put up my assessment of the two-shot holes.


What does give MP an unfair advantage is the test of time. It has had over 70 years to both mature and be given a touch-up by a talented architect. If we could freeze this thread for a bit, and give a latter-day Kyle Franz a go at DC, (or compare DC to the interesting new course of 2070) I'd be interested in living to 125 years of age to read it through.

[Jerry Kluger]

If you view #10 at Dormie as a cape hole then perhaps you will get to like it more - take the wetlands and envision them as water and see how you like it.  For some reason players feel differently about the wetlands than they would if it was water. 


Dormie is on a big piece of property and does not have the feeling of intimacy that MP does.  The routing also has the par 3s bunched together which is again something that many players don't like.  I have played Dormie quite a few times and that "little" par 3 has yet to yield a birdie for me or my playing partners. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Jerry,


My difficulty with #10Dormie is the presence of the Principal's Nose nostrils so close to the wetlands carry. If you hit driver 265 yards off tee to fairway center, you have a 200 yard carry to get over both the wetlands and the nostrils. There is little room left and right of the schnoz, so despite the overall width to the hole, it is a really difficult pair of opening shots. If you play short of the schnoz, you have 180 in to the green, which is a lot for a third shot on a par five.


Do you find that there is more room left and right of the Nose than I recall? It is possible that I am being overly sensitive..

[Jay Mickle]

Simple solution. Shorten the hole.

[Sean_A]

What does give MP an unfair advantage is the test of time. It has had over 70 years to both mature and be given a touch-up by a talented architect. If we could freeze this thread for a bit, and give a latter-day Kyle Franz a go at DC, (or compare DC to the interesting new course of 2070) I'd be interested in living to 125 years of age to read it through.

Ronald

This is a good point.  MP does look and feel well settled in its skin as Sand Hills course.  To me, this is by far the best part of the recent restoration.  Previously, MP could have been practically anywhere given how it was presented...its best attribute was grassed over.  Now, MP most certainly says Sand Hills.

Ciao

[Craig Disher]

DC's 10th has been and remains a problem hole. The length isn't the problem - I have seen the green reached with two shots. The problem is the wetland - it extends too far across the fairway. The original design was altered by direction of the County which insisted that the protected wetland needed to be extended more to the right. After that was done at considerable expense the decision was reversed. A modification was planned years ago but cost prevents it from being implemented. I think there's plenty of ground around the principal's nose bunkers. I think Ron's distances are a little off. From the left of the fairway after a 265 yd drive, the carry over the wetlands is about 170 and from the back of the principal's nose bunker it's about 160 to the green - which readily accepts a running shot.

[Ronald Montesano]

Good point. No one ever forced me to play from any set of tee decks, did they?

Simple solution. Shorten the hole.

[Ronald Montesano]

Craig,

Thanks for the input. Is there room between the wetland and the bunker? That was my angle, but I might have missed. Distances were measured with Google Earth Pro, so that might explain the discrepancy. Interesting notes about the wetland and its ridiculous existence, due to bureaucratic incompetence. I can imagine that the cost is high. If they ever go full-on private, they might get it done with that influx of cash.

DC's 10th has been and remains a problem hole. The length isn't the problem - I have seen the green reached with two shots. The problem is the wetland - it extends too far across the fairway. The original design was altered by direction of the County which insisted that the protected wetland needed to be extended more to the right. After that was done at considerable expense the decision was reversed. A modification was planned years ago but cost prevents it from being implemented. I think there's plenty of ground around the principal's nose bunkers. I think Ron's distances are a little off. From the left of the fairway after a 265 yd drive, the carry over the wetlands is about 170 and from the back of the principal's nose bunker it's about 160 to the green - which readily accepts a running shot.

[Jay Mickle]

I can imagine that the cost is high. If they ever go full-on private, they might get it done with that influx of cash.
L

The solution to most real estate problems.

[ChipRoyce]

I just played around on google maps; and agree with Jay. The hole as it plays puts each shot at very awkward / unrealistic distances.

Due to a number of features, the hole is effectively a par 5.5 or par 6 for an average hitter from the regular tees.

Reasons:
1) Drive: 250 Yard drive either is killed into the hillside to the right, or has to skirt the wetlands which pinch into the flatter area of the fairway on the left. If you miss your drive (only 200-220, you've effectively lost a shot because of the remaining distance / obstacles).
2) 2nd shot: If you thread that 250 yard drive into the fairway, you have a 170 yard shot to clear the wetlands that jut out or play to the right. Want to play to the right and avoid the wetlands? The fairway runs out at 211 yards. Principal's nose is 195 yards away, so means that you have to carry that 3 iron / hybrid / fairway wood 200 yards +.
3) Depending on your hopefully successful 2nd shot, here's the different yardages you have in:
- Short of principal's nose (PN): 175 to middle
- Right side of fairway short or right of PN: 160
- Carry PN: 110-100

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