[David Davis]

Today I played a rare round of golf here in Munich at a place called Golf Valley. This was Germany's course that was bidding for the 2018 Ryder Cup. Sorry but this course encompasses everything that I really don't love in modern golf. It's an inland links like course that plays soft like a parkland course. I couldn't find it in my heart to pollute my camera with photos but I would like to start this thread in hopes you guys might want to share some of your golf architecture - gone absurd photos or stories.


I will just post this photo to give you guys an idea of why I don't bother golfing in Germany. Please note that these distances are in meters.





Just to translate for everyone who thinks in yards:


Black: 703 yds par 5
White: 614 yds par 5
Yellow: 543 yds par 5


My solid drive back up about one yd after it landed.


I'd call it a solid 3 shot hole from the Black tees.

[Ronald Montesano]

I have some. There's a hole at Innisbrook Copperhead that drove me bonkers. Go to this link and click the third hole, and you'll see what I mean.


http://www.innisbrookgolfresort.com/golf/innisbrook-courses/copperhead-course


As far as the German golf hole, I suspect that a Ryder Cup there would have seen the tees moved up on Sunday to the 543 or 614 yardage (depending on roll out) to encourage runs at the green in two and potential eagle putts. Playing it from the full length in alternate shot would have been interesting.

[Duncan Cheslett]

The name "Golf Valley" suggests some kind of topographic interest. I had a look at the video and the course looks like it has been built on land reclaimed from the sea in Holland, rather than in a valley in Bavaria!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrtuelySMyM

[Jon Wiggett]

David,


I absolutely detest those signs but they are very much the must have for courses in Switzerland and the German ones I have seen. I hate to say this but one of the reasons why there is so much dross in German speaking parts is too many landscape architects with no understanding of the game claiming to be GCAs. The problem is their customers like to be dazzled by doctor titles and a slick powerpoint presentation.


Jon

[Adam Lawrence]

David,


I absolutely detest those signs but they are very much the must have for courses in Switzerland and the German ones I have seen. I hate to say this but one of the reasons why there is so much dross in German speaking parts is too many landscape architects with no understanding of the game claiming to be GCAs. The problem is their customers like to be dazzled by doctor titles and a slick powerpoint presentation.

I haven't seen Golf Valley, but that certainly doesn't apply to its designer Thomas Himmel given he's a former German amateur champion. His wife Petra, who used to be the golf correspondent for the Suddeutsche Zeitung, is an excellent player too.

[Niall C]

David

Give me a clue, why is that hole so objectionable ?

Niall

[David Davis]

David

Give me a clue, why is that hole so objectionable ?

Niall

Niall it's mainly a length issue. Though I don't love the artificial wrap around the man-made lake either at the end either to be honest. An inland links as they market it not playing firm and fast with water added everywhere. It's just on top of a long slog, uninspiring and unnatural.


it's also quite an awkward to play regardless of the tees.

[Jon Wiggett]

David,


I absolutely detest those signs but they are very much the must have for courses in Switzerland and the German ones I have seen. I hate to say this but one of the reasons why there is so much dross in German speaking parts is too many landscape architects with no understanding of the game claiming to be GCAs. The problem is their customers like to be dazzled by doctor titles and a slick powerpoint presentation.

I haven't seen Golf Valley, but that certainly doesn't apply to its designer Thomas Himmel given he's a former German amateur champion. His wife Petra, who used to be the golf correspondent for the Suddeutsche Zeitung, is an excellent player too.

Adam,


I was not suggesting the GCA of Golf Valley was one of those that fit my description. I would however point out that being a good player is in no way a guarantee that someone will be a good GCA and am somewhat surprised that you bring this as some sort of indication of such along with the quality of his wife's game. Really Adam


I was just commenting on the sign and the general quality of some (not all) GCA in certain countries. The fact that it is called Golf Valley just adds to the whole sorry image. Why Valley? the German word is Tal. Kind of sums it up for me


Jon

[Jon Wiggett]

David

Give me a clue, why is that hole so objectionable ?

Niall

Niall it's mainly a length issue. Though I don't love the artificial wrap around the man-made lake either at the end either to be honest. An inland links as they market it not playing firm and fast with water added everywhere. It's just on top of a long slog, uninspiring and unnatural.


it's also quite an awkward to play regardless of the tees.

But it is easy to plan on a computer and makes the drainage/irrigation simple as well as looking good in 2D. Planning for the infrastructure rather than purpose me thinks.


Jon

[Tony_Muldoon]

Black: 703 yds par 5
White: 614 yds par 5
Yellow: 543 yds par 5


Seeing this immediately took me back to my own personal Hell. The Vale Golf Club in Glamorgan.

Unless the preceding green is (not shown, but) adjacent to the Yellow tees you will have to walk miles just to get past all the tee’s on offer.   IN this case if this hole follows on, the walk between the Black and Yellow tees is 160 yards. A par 3!

I had two rounds booked at the Vale in a society where I was warned play would be slow. So I packed a trolley and cart bag. The course was so wet we were marshalled into only using trolleys on the paths. Multiple holes were doglegs around water, with the path well outside the fairway on the outside. In this way a single Par 5 can involve a walk of 1000m. Did well to get round in 6.5hrs.
IN additon the wetness of the course meant pick and wipe and then target golf off flat lies. It's amazing how soon a shot accross water beccomes less than thrilling.

I have no interest in playing Golf Valley to see if I am wrong.

[Adam Lawrence]

David,


I absolutely detest those signs but they are very much the must have for courses in Switzerland and the German ones I have seen. I hate to say this but one of the reasons why there is so much dross in German speaking parts is too many landscape architects with no understanding of the game claiming to be GCAs. The problem is their customers like to be dazzled by doctor titles and a slick powerpoint presentation.

I haven't seen Golf Valley, but that certainly doesn't apply to its designer Thomas Himmel given he's a former German amateur champion. His wife Petra, who used to be the golf correspondent for the Suddeutsche Zeitung, is an excellent player too.

Adam,


I was not suggesting the GCA of Golf Valley was one of those that fit my description. I would however point out that being a good player is in no way a guarantee that someone will be a good GCA and am somewhat surprised that you bring this as some sort of indication of such along with the quality of his wife's game. Really Adam

I wasn't making any comment on the quality or otherwise of Thomas's work, merely that there's no way one could accuse him of not understanding golf.


Actually though, I think you have a point Jon, there are definitely quite a few designers across Europe who are really landscape guys and don't have much sympathy for golf. I wouldn't necessarily flag Germany up as the leader in this; most of the Germany GCAs I've met have been passionate and very good golfers -- Christoph Staedler is another multiple national champion, for example.


The other issue I see with a fair bit of European GCA is what Tom Doak has identified on here before as an 'engineering' mindset -- if it drains, it works. Perhaps Germany, which is a country that reveres engineers, has a bit of that.

[David Davis]

For the record, I didn't want to pick on Germany either, unfortunately when it comes to GCA there is a lot left to be desired in a country that has plenty of money, a solid infrastructure, a large # of golfers and love for the sport.


What I'm missing in this discussion so far was the main reason for starting the thread and that was to see some of your examples of things that in your opinion fit into this category. As well travelled as the treehouse members are there should be plenty of examples.

[Adrian_Stiff]

How busy is the car park is one of the best tests to tell you just how good or shit the golf course actually is. How was the car park here? Just because you (us) don't like this genre of golf course is not the rule of course, you may be the minor head. If it was in on the Ryder Cup bids it surely must be theoretically good if not appealing to 'us'.


The newer golfing countries have been brought up on a diet of what they can see on TV rather than history. Yesterday I was with a developer who wanted a 6 hole par 3 course of the 6 best par 3 holes in the world, a couple they eventually realised they could not create but you can probably guess one that was in the six that is no favourite on this site.


Anytime you have to deal with the truth just remember that The Belfry objectively is a top 5 UK golf course in many lists if this depresses you cheer yourself up and remember the beautiful bunkering, the avenues of trees flanking every fairway and the fountain at 18.

[Matthew Petersen]

Looks to be about 250-260 from the back tee to where the fairway starts?


I guess if you're playing a 700 yd par 5 then that shouldn't be an issue.

[Adam Lawrence]

How busy is the car park is one of the best tests to tell you just how good or shit the golf course actually is. How was the car park here? Just because you (us) don't like this genre of golf course is not the rule of course, you may be the minor head. If it was in on the Ryder Cup bids it surely must be theoretically good if not appealing to 'us'.


The newer golfing countries have been brought up on a diet of what they can see on TV rather than history. Yesterday I was with a developer who wanted a 6 hole par 3 course of the 6 best par 3 holes in the world, a couple they eventually realised they could not create but you can probably guess one that was in the six that is no favourite on this site.


Anytime you have to deal with the truth just remember that The Belfry objectively is a top 5 UK golf course in many lists if this depresses you cheer yourself up and remember the beautiful bunkering, the avenues of trees flanking every fairway and the fountain at 18.

Adrian, show me a list that has the Belfry top 5 in the UK. I take your point but you're off track here. I've never seen one.

[Thomas Dai]

Upside/downside - if more folks love courses like this then perhaps they'll stay away from the niche courses we herein seem to like so hopefully there'll still be tee-times available for us!

Now if golf was only played on this kind of course and it was also play-n-play in fourballs taking 5-6 hrs a round would you give up the game? Think I might.

Thank God for variety.

Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

How busy is the car park is one of the best tests to tell you just how good or shit the golf course actually is. How was the car park here? Just because you (us) don't like this genre of golf course is not the rule of course, you may be the minor head. If it was in on the Ryder Cup bids it surely must be theoretically good if not appealing to 'us'.


The newer golfing countries have been brought up on a diet of what they can see on TV rather than history. Yesterday I was with a developer who wanted a 6 hole par 3 course of the 6 best par 3 holes in the world, a couple they eventually realised they could not create but you can probably guess one that was in the six that is no favourite on this site.


Anytime you have to deal with the truth just remember that The Belfry objectively is a top 5 UK golf course in many lists if this depresses you cheer yourself up and remember the beautiful bunkering, the avenues of trees flanking every fairway and the fountain at 18.

Adrian, show me a list that has the Belfry top 5 in the UK. I take your point but you're off track here. I've never seen one.

Adam - A Top 5 must play...Top 5 busiest course....Top 5 most profitable....those sort of lists Adam. Our club trip was by far the most successfull this year going to The Belfry, one night stay, Brabazon and the National. It was going to be Isle of Man which was about as popular as a fart in spacesuit so cancelled. That and the Celtic Manor ones are the ones the people want. If you polled GB golfers and said what course would you most like to play, The Belfry would be in the top 5.

[Adam Lawrence]

How busy is the car park is one of the best tests to tell you just how good or shit the golf course actually is. How was the car park here? Just because you (us) don't like this genre of golf course is not the rule of course, you may be the minor head. If it was in on the Ryder Cup bids it surely must be theoretically good if not appealing to 'us'.


The newer golfing countries have been brought up on a diet of what they can see on TV rather than history. Yesterday I was with a developer who wanted a 6 hole par 3 course of the 6 best par 3 holes in the world, a couple they eventually realised they could not create but you can probably guess one that was in the six that is no favourite on this site.


Anytime you have to deal with the truth just remember that The Belfry objectively is a top 5 UK golf course in many lists if this depresses you cheer yourself up and remember the beautiful bunkering, the avenues of trees flanking every fairway and the fountain at 18.

Adrian, show me a list that has the Belfry top 5 in the UK. I take your point but you're off track here. I've never seen one.

Adam - A Top 5 must play...Top 5 busiest course....Top 5 most profitable....those sort of lists Adam. Our club trip was by far the most successfull this year going to The Belfry, one night stay, Brabazon and the National. It was going to be Isle of Man which was about as popular as a fart in spacesuit so cancelled. That and the Celtic Manor ones are the ones the people want. If you polled GB golfers and said what course would you most like to play, The Belfry would be in the top 5.

Show me the list. You made the claim, show me the list.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Assuming a good drive from the tips, that lay-up looks hella difficult  I'd be hitting 3 wood to try to get a 6 iron or less in for my 3rd on that hole.  Water left, trees right on the lay-up.  Which way is the prevailing wind?

[Duncan Cheslett]

Show me the list. You made the claim, show me the list.

Adrian's "list" is clearly an anecdotal one but probably accurate nonetheless.


Ask average golfers in England where they'd like to play and most answers would no doubt include (in no particular order)


Celtic Manor
St Andrews
The Belfry
Woodhall Spa
Wentworth

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,


from personal experience I can tell you the amount of cars in the car park of most golf courses is to do with location NOT quality of the GCA.


Adam,


yes, I would agree with most of what you say.


Jon

[jeffwarne]

Black: 703 yds par 5
White: 614 yds par 5
Yellow: 543 yds par 5


Seeing this immediately took me back to my own personal Hell. The Vale Golf Club in Glamorgan.

Unless the preceding green is (not shown, but) adjacent to the Yellow tees you will have to walk miles just to get past all the tee’s on offer.   IN this case if this hole follows on, the walk between the Black and Yellow tees is 160 yards. A par 3!

I had two rounds booked at the Vale in a society where I was warned play would be slow. So I packed a trolley and cart bag. The course was so wet we were marshalled into only using trolleys on the paths. Multiple holes were doglegs around water, with the path well outside the fairway on the outside. In this way a single Par 5 can involve a walk of 1000m. Did well to get round in 6.5hrs.
IN additon the wetness of the course meant pick and wipe and then target golf off flat lies. It's amazing how soon a shot accross water beccomes less than thrilling.

I have no interest in playing Golf Valley to see if I am wrong.

I love this picture and it's(300 yards between tees) exactly why I think we should keep supporting hot balls and hot drivers.
'Heck yes it's fun to hit it long!!!
By the time I get there technology will make this hole reachable and I'll be 70,( and hell will be frozen over.....)

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,


from personal experience I can tell you the amount of cars in the car park of most golf courses is to do with location NOT quality of the GCA.


Adam,


yes, I would agree with most of what you say.


Jon

The BOTCP test is more than location, but yes a low indicator could just relate to a bad siting.

[David Davis]

I love this picture and it's(300 yards between tees) exactly why I think we should keep supporting hot balls and hot drivers.
'Heck yes it's fun to hit it long!!!
By the time I get there technology will make this hole reachable and I'll be 70,( and hell will be frozen over.....)

Jeff, when I walked up to this sign with my borrowed clubs for the day. I dug into the bag to find the hardest ball I could, it was a Pinnacle Golf red. The thought that ran through my head was, "Dear Lord, please just this once grant me Jeff Warne's distance off the tee"


Clearly, she wasn't listening to me...

[David Davis]

Assuming a good drive from the tips, that lay-up looks hella difficult  I'd be hitting 3 wood to try to get a 6 iron or less in for my 3rd on that hole.  Water left, trees right on the lay-up.  Which way is the prevailing wind?

Tom, no joke, prevailing wind is right to left into your face. We didn't have much wind to speak of, I'd give it 1.5 clubs so not that much impact. I'd say the real killer was the soft fairway.


A 6 iron putts you directly across the water at the most challenging point all carry into the wind so you need to pure it.

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