[Ally Mcintosh]

There appears to be no up to date discussion on Riviera.

All I could find were a lot of old threads decrying the changes made around 2002.

Luckily, having never seen the course before those changes and not being one to watch much golf on the goggle box, I arrived at Riviera a couple of weeks ago free from any prejudice.

What I found was an absolute masterpiece of strategic design with an enormous amount of variety and a few of the best holes I had ever played.

Anyone want to talk about Riviera?

[Jon Cavalier]

I had the same experience and the same reaction after my first visit back in February.

Of particular note for me were holes 3-8, which I found to be as good a 6 hole stretch of golf as most I'd ever played.

I'm likewise a big fan.

[Nigel Islam]

I had the same experience and the same reaction after my first visit back in February.

Of particular note for me were holes 3-8, which I found to be as good a 6 hole stretch of golf as most I'd ever played.

I'm likewise a big fan.

Totally agree. I'm a huge Riviera apologist. How many courses have a more diverse set of holes than Riviera? 

[Mike Wagner]

There appears to be no up to date discussion on Riviera.

All I could find were a lot of old threads decrying the changes made around 2002.

Luckily, having never seen the course before those changes and not being one to watch much golf on the goggle box, I arrived at Riviera a couple of weeks ago free from any prejudice.

What I found was an absolute masterpiece of strategic design with an enormous amount of variety and a few of the best holes I had ever played.

Anyone want to talk about Riviera?

Played it a couple weeks ago.  Absolute masterpiece.

[John Kirk]

I've played Riviera 3 or 4 times.  I think it's great, one of my all-time favorites.

The recent Confidential Guide rankings are 9-9-8-7.  I can't believe Darius Oliver gave it a 7.  It's nice and big; the rough is kept at a reasonable length.  You can hit driver with impunity.  The greens are tilted down to the bottom of the barranca in a way that confounds and delights.

Many would rather play Merion, but with the way Merion is maintained, with 4-6" rough, Riviera is more fun to play.  Plus, Riviera arguably occupies a unique setting for a great course.

It's interesting that the least discussed, or most criticized holes, are the long par fours on the south side of the property.  Nobody says much nice about holes 7, 8, 12 and 13.  There are few negative comments about any other hole, except perhaps the 1st hole, which some people regard as mundane.  Personally, I find the use of the little swale that cuts through the 1st and 11th holes to be perfectly placed, and I like the idea of a birdie hole to start the day.  And the first tee environment at Riviera is unbeatable.

I am less enamored with the 10th hole than those who consider it the greatest short par 4 in golf.  I think it's fantastic, but also think there are better ones.  If lowest score were always my goal, I would play the hole the same way every time, regardless of pin position.  Fairway wood way out to the left, sand wedge to the green, and hope for the best.

On the other hand, holes like 4, 5, especially 9, 14, 15, 16 and 18 are right down my alley.

[Tommy Naccarato]

The reason being is that Darius realizes what a masterpiece the original design was and how out compares to the lipstick on a pig work that has been going on there for the last two decades.

[Michael Robin]

Ally,


I think we met right before you were headed out, when I gave you a ride up from the Driving Range. Nice to have met you, sorry I didn't make the GCA connection.


Riviera is in amazing condition these days. Greens are 11 everyday and firm, which makes them oh so small and really puts a premium on angles and placement. The green speeds really bring out the amazing design ideas and shaping put in place by Mr. Thomas and Mr. Bell. For example, it is so fun to use all of the different contours around the 6th green, both on the putting surface and off, to try to figure out a recovery shot if you find yourself on the wrong side of the bunker in the middle of the green. Just one of my favorite greens in the game.


Same with 10. The angles are so crazy important when firm and fast, especially with a chip or a putt from off the green. You can so easily think you have a birdie chip and walk off with a 6 and go "How the hell did that happen?"


If anyone gets the chance to play there now before aerification on 11/7&8 take it!

[Tim Leahy]

What did you think about the Kikuyu? Toughest chipping I have ever played but great lies from the fairways. No such thing as a ground game.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Michael,

Good to meet you too, however briefly. I too am sorry I didn't connect your name with GCA.

Tommy,

Although loathe to take this thread down the same path as the others, I'd be interested to hear a more up to date take on what you, Geoff et al consider the ruination of the course?

I get that when you know a course intricately, it hurts to see changes - however minor - that are not in line with what you think is best for a course. It happens to me as well.... But on the flip side, I can only keep myself sane if I look past certain detailing on other courses and judge them for their whole. Because I see detailing I don't like in every course I see.

I know there are a bunch of Fazio bunkers there that look different to the originals (which I have never seen even in photo). But the positioning is genius, better than any course I've played. Has the positioning changed?

Furthermore, the scale of the bunkers is perfect. And the top-lines are also perfect in height. Much thought was given to ensuring those top-lines created the perfect effect with sight lines to green surfaces and the perception of no dead ground areas. Were the top-lines as good pre-renovation?

I also quite liked the way the kikuyu formed an overhanging lip on the bunkers. Gave them enough of a rough look to counteract what I imagine was a loss of multiple bays and noses with the original Bell bunkers.

I'm sure a bunch of new tees were added. Has that affected the original tees / angles?

I might have preferred to see a few more short grass run-offs such as at the back of 5 but I'm not sure that stemmed my enjoyment.

What - if anything - was done to the greens? Was that a disimprovement?

I just found a bunch of great holes. 4 and 10 would make any best 18 in the blink of an eye. I really liked 5 quite a lot. The hogs back on 7, tee shot over the barranca and view up to a great green were superb (be really interested to see what the fairway bunkering was like previously). 9 I think is a really solid 4. 12 was a beauty and 13 could be great if they ever get round to removing that channel of trees down the left. 16 made a lovely finishing short par 3 and 17 had a brilliant last 60 yards.

So much variety. I'm back down working at Strandhill on a full bunker scheme at the moment and a few things I saw at Riviera have inspired me.

Tim,

I managed to play a few 8 iron bump and run chips. Clearly not the same as playing on our beloved links courses but was still a good option now and again.

Ally

[Tim Gallant]

Ally,


I played it this year for the first time, and even with high expectations going in, thought it was a wonderful golf course.


Jon, completely agree with your comments re: 3-8. I had never played it before recent-ish work, but understand they reclaimed the right fairway on 8th hole, giving more options off the tee. I decided to hit my straightest drive of the day...right into the barranca . But why stop at 8? I would say 2-10 are all stellar.


My favourite holes on the course were: 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 16 and 18.

[Mark Kiely]

I've never played it but been on the property multiple times for LA Opens, etc., most recently this past February for the Collegiate Showcase event on Tuesday of tournament week. I agree the course is extremely captivating. I'm curious what those who've played it would say is the correct play off the 5th tee. During the Collegiate Showcase, I was surprised to see several people hit their tee ball past the end of the top fairway, which left them extremely awkward shots from the sidehill. Do some people try to bomb it to the bottom fairway? How far is left to the green from the end of the top fairway? The hole diagram on the club's website doesn't say.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Riviera is incredible, in my mind. But because the hands that have touch it over the years start with an "F" not a "H", "C", or "D", it gets hammered here. Riv is a cool site, incredible golf holes and remains one of the tours favorite stops, also.

[James Bennett]

Riviera is a fantastic course.  There is something to study on every hole.  The routing is intriguing.  The history is long and significant.  The facilities are first class - a genuine oasis.  And, it is the best kikuyu-based course I have played.  Yes, I wish it wasn't kikuyu, but the playability of Riviera Kikuyu is quite good.

I always remember my brief visit, and enjoy the annual PGA event.
I couldn't believe how good the front nine holes were - we didn't get to see them on TV a decade ago - we do now, but they are far more interesting to play personally.

3-8 may be good,but so are 1-6, 2-8, 4-9, 5-10 etc etc.

James B

ps to see the 'greens complex' of 9/2/18 greens with 10/3 tee, and to understand the cut and fill that occurred (but is not evident), to see the careful use of machinery to create something spectacular.  Now that is a constant memory of Riviera.  And, it all looks like it has always been there.

[Terry Lavin]

I've played the Riv maybe 6 times and have always enjoyed it.  I appreciate the input of those who think Fazio bastardized the bunkering and scarred the course, but the bones are just so good that most will be able to appreciate it without focusing on the look of the bunkers.  What impressed me the most is how interesting the course was despite the fact that it's basically laid out on an uninteresting pretty flat basin.  The only appreciable elevation is off the first tee and getting up to the last two greens.  It's a real gem, even if one accepts the argument that it would be much better if C&C or Doak or Hanse had done the work.

[Tommy Naccarato]

Ally, I will post some images later, because the difference between the two styles is worth detailing, as well as the designer's intent for the holes.  Not what Tom Marzaloatov/Tom Fazio intent in changing them, which, Marzlotov said to me in correspondence on Facebook, "Golf is for the living, not the dead."


All one has to do is look at what has been accomplished at The Los Angeles Country Club, and they will see what could be possible at Riviera.  It has to be in the right hands of people that know what they are doing and, who embrace this history of design.  That will never happen with current ownership.


I'm thrilled that so many love Riviera now, but do know it could be even better!  For me, when I see it, I get pains in my chest and heart knowing what should be there.  This has nothing to do with the current conditioning which, looks to be incredible and in the hands of a top notch superintendent. He's doing a great job!  I just wish he was in charge of maintaining a pristinely restored, ARCHITECTURALLY BRILLIANT golf course which it deserves to be.


Riviera is my first love.  You never get over your first love despite how much they break your heart.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks Tommy, I'd appreciate seeing some old photos.

Guess I'm trying to figure out if the changes are all in the aesthetics or whether aspects of the strategy / playability were changed.

As Terry states, surely the bones are the same? Because those bones are unquestionably fantastic.

[John Kavanaugh]

Thanks to John Kirk this little thread sums up things well: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46829.0.html

[Peter Pallotta]

I always appreciate Tommy N's contributions, not least because I always learn something from him. But that "7" is certainly a curious score - especially compared not to what someone like me might think but to Tom D's "9". Not to toot my own horn, but this once again reminds me of the thread I started a while back - the "what is" instead of what "should be" thread.  Assuming that Darius is no more/less qualified to pass judgment on a course than the other CG contributors, is his "7" a case of focusing on what the golf course should be (but isn't) instead of simply on what it actually is?  If so, that doesn't seem quite right/proper.  It's more like the way I'd judge someone who I didn't like and/or was predisposed not to like than the way I'd judge a friend or a complete stranger.  With the former, I'm always ready to point out what in my mind he should be but isn't, while with the latter I tend to focus (positively) on who he in fact actually is.  Ally seems to have taken a similar "what is" approach -- i.e. seeing Riviera for the first time and appreciating it for what it is. With each passing year, I find myself feeling that the alternative is a real dead-end, and a no-win situation; plus, I have become more acutely aware that, for me at least, the "creative mind" is quite diametrically opposed to the "critic's mind".  I can't contain both of them at the same time, and if one of them has to go I will be very happy to finally let go of the "critic".  And, specifically in terms of golf course architecture, the "what the architect could have/should have done" approach really does seem an exercise in futility, if not foolishness. Did the architect make the best possible use of the site's natural features? we ask, as if there is more than one person in a thousand who could answer that question knowledgeably, reasonably, and factually.

Peter

[MCirba]

I know where Tommy is coming from.

Every time I visit Merion I have the same sense of what was, and what "could be", and admittedly it may be somewhat the aesthetics that have been compromised but I have a tough time divorcing those details from the playability and interest, and drama.

Thankfully at Merion they are presently undoing some of the most recent changes and I hope they continue in that vein.   

[Mike Wagner]

What did you think about the Kikuyu? Toughest chipping I have ever played but great lies from the fairways. No such thing as a ground game.

Absolutely unique and could be worth 4-8 strokes if you haven't played it. 

[John Kavanaugh]

If you ever want to find out who thinks they are the smartest man in the room just bring up Riviera. They'll tell you every thing wrong with the place. Now if Shack could just get Darius on his podcast...

[Jim Nugent]

The reason being is that Darius realizes what a masterpiece the original design was and how out compares to the lipstick on a pig work that has been going on there for the last two decades.

Tommy, even so, would you give the current Rivera a 7 on the Doak scale? 

[Adam Clayman]

One needn't think their the smartest guy in the room to see shaping against the grade.

[Tommy Naccarato]

The reason being is that Darius realizes what a masterpiece the original design was and how out compares to the lipstick on a pig work that has been going on there for the last two decades.

Tommy, even so, would you give the current Rivera a 7 on the Doak scale?

Yes.  I think Riviera is a must see if you are an architecture fanatic.  I think its worth higher then an 8 and could possibly be a Doak 9.5, which there are very few if it was restored properly.  But that is the problem with numbers and being subjective enough in assigning them, because if some of the fine lines and question marks.  There is not a bad hole at Riviera, just bad, shoddy and most UNINFORMED work done over the last 15 years....  Some might call me for nit-picking, and thats their right, but why credit stupidity?  do we need to be crediting something that isn't up to the standards it should be/could be?


Why do we continue to allow Pine Valley get credit for its cleanliness?  Should it be judged for standard it once was and how it should be represented?  We certainly hold Augusta National to that account as we should, but continue too love the course for what its brought to tournament golf.  Architecturally, does its Masterplan continue to direct, or does it harm?

[Kalen Braley]

Even if someone put the wrong tires on something like this, it would still be at least a 9!   

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