News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« on: October 24, 2016, 04:43:36 PM »
On this site, we extol the virtues of strategic design and the appeals it makes to a player's intellect. Golf, after all, is as much a mental challenge as it is a physical one, and a game so cerebral surely demands engagement at that level.


Yet, the playing records of men like Lee Westwood (who claims he has never read a book), Dustin Johnson (once described by a GCAer as a man who "doesn't appear to be too burdened with intellectual curiosity), and Billy Horschel (I include him in this list as payback for his blocking me on Twitter) reveals that many great golfers are not exactly great thinkers. Tiger Woods is certainly one of the greatest golfers ever, and yet he wasn't smart enough to password protect his phone while taking sleep aids.


Is golf really a mental game? Or did Trent Jones have a point when he eschewed subtlety and the strategic challenge that goes with it in favor of spelling it all out at a 1st grade reading level for the player? His enduring popularity among the general population of golfers suggests that maybe most of us aren't really in it for the mental challenge. Would you be a better player if you weren't so smart? I like to think I would be. Then again, maybe I just need to see my teaching pro more often.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2016, 04:58:34 PM »
There's thinking, and there's thinking in tournament golf. They are not at all the same.


-----


Seriously, though, when it comes to sports, some people are geniuses within their sport, but not necessarily otherwise (Terry Bradshaw comes to mind, since I'm a Burgh guy). Heck, that applies to all of life. Just because you can think circles around someone in one field doesn't mean you can think circles around them in everything. That's far too simplistic a model of life.


I test well, always have. Have a degree in a tough field from a top school. Got a leak in my basement I couldn't find. My wife's cousin, who never met a test he liked, found it and fixed it in a day.


We all have gifts. Some are in thinking, some are in fixing, some are in playing.


You are comparing apples to oranges.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2016, 05:08:13 PM »
Perhaps cynical, but I always wondered if the real thought behind their supposed design philosophies, and those 1920 gca books, marketing tools to be sure, weren't just trying to make things sound just complicated enough that the amateur architects wouldn't keep trying to have a go at building course? 

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2016, 05:13:28 PM »
Funny how the smartest men in the room are always the most vocal critics. 95% of the members of this board think they know more about golf course strategy than Jack Nicklaus. Miserable bastards. Fact is, anyone making a living playing golf is no dummy. Even if all that means is that they have enough sense to lay off the booze the night before a tournament. Not so easy to do.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2016, 05:55:55 PM »
Jason T. -

I recall reading at least 2 books by well-regarded golf persons that state that golf is best played with "an empty mind." I wish I had the books handy so that I could quote the exact passages.

The reality is different personalities will approach the game in different ways. Intuitive/feel players (like Fred Couples) will have a different approach than a analytical/strategic players (like Tom Kite). In fact, I recall reading in Harvey Pennick's first book that he never let Kite watch him give Ben Crenshaw a lesson and he never let Crenshaw watch him give Kite a lesson. Since they had very different personalities, he taught them in different ways and did not want to confuse them by how he was teaching the other one.

DT

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2016, 06:10:19 PM »
Just checking my reading comprehension, Jason...did you say in the opening post that you're too smart to play better?

If smart and active brain are the same thing, I think there may be something to this...but I actually think it's the active part that's most dangerous. No, I do. It think DJ had the problem of over-activity upstairs.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2016, 06:15:43 PM »
Most men with DJ's athleticism would have opted for the short term youthful glory of a more glamorous sport like basketball or football. Tell me again how dumb he is.


The smartest people I have ever met are those that recognize their true gift and exploit it to their full potential. It's what separates the dreamers from the creamers.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2016, 06:28:22 PM »
As others have noted, I think Jason is defining intelligence too narrowly. (My reminder to myself: one of the functions of reason is to recognize the limits of reason -- hence Kierkegaard's leap of faith.) 

No, it's not difficult at all to understand a golf course, any golf course. But, to engage with it successfully takes more than understanding.  From Tommy Armour's book:

"It has been said that it helps to be stupid in playing golf. That cynical observation is far wide of the mark, although there are some excellent golfers who are not mental giants at the term is customarily used. But in giving them their just due, it must be said that their minds are disciplined to good golf, either by nature, long training...or arduous work in controlling their thinking so they'll think straight when they have to and let the subconscious do the job it is best fitted to do."

Peter


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2016, 06:31:41 PM »
Peter,


How old was Tommy's son when he wrote that book? Jr went to a local Juco with my equally not so bright golf buds. The stories are legendary, as was his ball striking. Damn, he did turn things around to have on hell of a career.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2016, 06:40:39 PM »
J - that would be from the original Tommy Armour, written when he was in his mid 50s. His grandson TA-III has a native genius all his own, both for living and for golf. One thing few give him credit for is the strength of character to be his own man/golfer -- to have the nerve to come out on tour with a flat, short, quick backswing that was the anti-thesis of the long and flowing swing of the great Tommy Armour says a lot about him, i.e. about having the right temperament to play top-flight tournament golf.  I'd love to hear the stories from the early days...

P   
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 06:43:00 PM by Peter Pallotta »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2016, 07:00:33 PM »
Tommy has returned to his alma matre, a juco in a 5,000 town, and supported the team. Really a great guy. Even if he wasn't the stories are not for a public forum, but then again, he didn't do anything I wouldn't do so how bad could they be? 

Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2016, 09:34:55 PM »
Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?

Not very smart!

If we start from the beginning, you have 140 acres to to hit the ball around and play golf, don't you think it's rather odd there is only one course?

BCowan

Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2016, 09:56:31 PM »
Funny how the smartest men in the room are always the most vocal critics. 95% of the members of this board think they know more about golf course strategy than Jack Nicklaus. Miserable bastards. Fact is, anyone making a living playing golf is no dummy. Even if all that means is that they have enough sense to lay off the booze the night before a tournament. Not so easy to do.

Jkava, you are on a roll.  Tommy McGinnis was leading a PGA tour event back in the day after the 1st round, he didn't show up the next day, had the bottle flu.  Life was much simpler then, less moving parts  ;) .  95% of the cats on this site couldn't make a profit on a lemonade stand let alone talk strategy with Jack.   By Jason's observations, he should be a +3. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2016, 09:59:35 PM »
Players don't have to break down the course if they aren't good at thinking about such things.  Many rely on their caddies to help make strategic plans for how to get around in the lowest number.  It's only when the player lets his ego cloud his strategy that problems develop.

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2016, 10:53:22 PM »
John Maggines an ex-tour player who has a show on XM says his teacher told him before he won a web.com event "If you're not real good at thinkin', try to not do too much of it' (I butchered it but that was close).



Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2016, 11:29:05 PM »
By Jason's observations, he should be a +3.


No, by my observations, you should be a +3. I should be a 30. Maybe my premise is flawed, in which case I need a different explanation for why I suck so badly at this game.


Ignore for a moment the arrogant tone of the opening post, because there's a discussion in here if we all get past the personality faults of the original poster. Pete Dye always says that the way you humble Tour pros is by getting them to start thinking, and I wonder if he's right. On the same weekend I first met Ben, I played a 180 yard par 3 for the first time. I watched as five intelligent, articulate GCAers immediately spotted the sideslope the architect had provided to bounce the ball close, and watched as they, one-by-one, all tried to use it. Not one of them found the green. Hitting last in the group, because I suck at golf and thus almost never have the honor, I took the same route with a variation on the same failed result. The next day I played with a member who just hit a ball right at the flag and knocked it to three feet. He clearly was the only one of us smart enough to see and ignore all the options, which takes great intelligence. But I don't think anyone with an IQ below 90 would have even needed multiple plays to figure out the strategy of "hit it right at the flag." It's only the nerds who picture the glory of taking the most circuitous route.


My wife is much smarter than me, and she famously hates the 17th at Sawgrass. Good golfers, on the other hand, love it. Why does she hate it while they love it? Because there's no thinking involved - you just hit the target or proceed to the area clearly marked as the drop zone and hit it again. Ok, actually that's not why she hates it at all, but I like to imagine that it's the real root cause.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2016, 11:54:14 PM »


Ignore for a moment the arrogant tone of the opening post, because there's a discussion in here if we all get past the personality faults of the original poster. Pete Dye always says that the way you humble Tour pros is by getting them to start thinking, and I wonder if he's right. On the same weekend I first met Ben, I played a 180 yard par 3 for the first time. I watched as five intelligent, articulate GCAers immediately spotted the sideslope the architect had provided to bounce the ball close, and watched as they, one-by-one, all tried to use it. Not one of them found the green. Hitting last in the group, because I suck at golf and thus almost never have the honor, I took the same route with a variation on the same failed result. The next day I played with a member who just hit a ball right at the flag and knocked it to three feet. He clearly was the only one of us smart enough to see and ignore all the options, which takes great intelligence. But I don't think anyone with an IQ below 90 would have even needed multiple plays to figure out the strategy of "hit it right at the flag." It's only the nerds who picture the glory of taking the most circuitous route.



Jason,

Have you ever heard the saying, there's always someone smarter in the room?....maybe the smart ones aren't in the room, they're on the golf course! ;)

Peter Pallotta

Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2016, 11:57:29 PM »
J -

1. Pete Dye is right.
2. Your five-some wasn't smart enough to know that.
3. Next time you'll know.
4. Ipso facto you'll be smarter, not less smart, than you are today.   
5. In subsequent outings you will fire right at that pin, and achieve (a relatively greater measure of) success.
6. Ergo you will be a better golfer when you are smarter.
7. But since "better" does not, in your case or mine, mean "good" you still may not notice/acknowledge this fact.
8. Don't berate yourself in any event -- you're very smart in other ways, and your wife loves you. And how many of the world's greatest players can say *that*?


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2016, 02:28:22 AM »
Jason,


I seem to recall it was Tommy Armour who said


'Give me a man with big hands, big feet and no brain and I will make a golfer out of him'


However, the game seems to outsmart the most intelligent people on a regular basis so IT is probably no slouch ;)


Jon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2016, 06:37:35 AM »
I reckon most courses don't give golfers much of a chance to think.  The heart of the matter comes in the form of recovery options and there are far too many holes without much in the way of this sort of thing.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2016, 11:34:18 AM »
Jason--


Your anecdote about the Seekers of the Sacred Sideslope is great, and I think it underscores an important point: that part of what makes golf great is that it can be fun even when played non-competitively.


Was your fivesome embroiled in a match, and there were any stakes on it? If so, then it sounds like they might not have been entirely "playing to win" on that particular hole. I would suggest that the desire to hit a certain shot in order to watch the ball kick and roll a certain way overtook their desire to play the hole in as few strokes as possible, period.


If there was no kind of match going on, though, I'm inclined to say that playing the hole that way was neither smart nor stupid. Hitting a golf ball with no competitive context is really just a strange form of performance art, so anything goes.


Both approaches are okay, of course - it just shows how golf can be different things to different people.


~ ~ ~


Now, if we're talking about the competitive form of golf (from someone playing by himself/herself but keeping score, i.e. competing against Old Man Par, all the way up to major championships), I think there are a lot of otherwise intelligent people who nevertheless have a tremendous capacity to play stupid/foolish golf. In my years of playing golf with lots of people, I can't tell you how many times I saw people try to pull off shots that they had no business trying. And this includes very intelligent people who, if they behaved that way in business, would be in big trouble.


Now, it may be the case that for some people, golf is attractive because it provides a context to be reckless and foolish in a safe way (take a stupid risk in golf and all you lose is a shot or a golf ball), which I can understand. In those people's cases, we probably have to be more generous when we ask about how smartly they're playing.


FWIW, in some tournament golf this summer, I really concentrated on playing very conservatively most of the time, trying to out-think my competition because I know I couldn't flat-out outplay them. I had some modest success with this approach, which required me to hit more fairway woods off tees and lay up on more par fives than I normally might. When I noticed that I shot some decent scores despite playing fairly mediocre golf, I felt as though I had played pretty smartly.


It's hard, though! The way in which golfers goad themselves into being foolish is the push-pull that makes the game so endlessly interesting, to me.


The pro game is another animal, because the talent that all of those guys possess, especially around the greens, enables them to play in a way that would be totally idiotic for most golfers.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2016, 11:54:30 AM »
On the same weekend I first met Ben, I played a 180 yard par 3 for the first time. I watched as five intelligent, articulate GCAers immediately spotted the sideslope the architect had provided to bounce the ball close, and watched as they, one-by-one, all tried to use it. Not one of them found the green. Hitting last in the group, because I suck at golf and thus almost never have the honor, I took the same route with a variation on the same failed result. The next day I played with a member who just hit a ball right at the flag and knocked it to three feet. He clearly was the only one of us smart enough to see and ignore all the options, which takes great intelligence. But I don't think anyone with an IQ below 90 would have even needed multiple plays to figure out the strategy of "hit it right at the flag." It's only the nerds who picture the glory of taking the most circuitous route.


Perhaps. But can you really learn anything from one time through for each of those parties?


Maybe the member hits it at every flag and fails most of the time. Further, did you ask him prior to the shot what he was trying to do? Maybe he was going for the bank and just didn't execute it correctly to the naked eye.


Sometimes people are fooled by their play, and the play of others. If only 1 shot in 10 actually holds in that situation, but that member hit the 1, maybe it isn't the smartest play.


And what is smartest for one player isn't necessarily the smartest for another. I generally don't go for a green from 200+ out in a fairway bunker with a 6 iron, ala Tiger at the Canadian Open back in the day. Worked for him, though...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Peter Pallotta

Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2016, 12:05:00 PM »
Tim - "a strange form of performance art" is a terric phrase/concept, and an apt description. It also helps explain why I like to dress the part, carry period-correct implements, and have a neutral,  natural and not overbearing backdrop to work against. It is a one man show, and I'm the star....

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just how "smart" a game is golf, anyways?
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2016, 12:08:02 PM »
Jack Nicklaus is supposed to have said something along the lines of "If I reckon I can't sucessfully pull a shot off 8 times out of 10 I'll find an alternative way to play it that I can pull off successfully 8 out of 10 times".


Atb

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back