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jeffwarne

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Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2016, 09:35:01 PM »
For heavens sake, since when did par matter in match play?


GMAB!!


Thank you Kalen! 100% correct.


looked like any other European parkland Ryder Cup course to me, with faster greens.........on a Wednesday ;)
would've been great if it was firmer-then they could've chipped to every par 4 rather than pitched
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 09:36:39 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Connolly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2016, 09:36:49 PM »
The set up was easy peasy no butt cheek squeezy. Low golf IQ TV. I still liked it, if only to see Rory, B cups and all, with a brief moment with his pie hole shut after he got Reeded when we needed it.

All kidding aside, it was a fun tv event on a slog of a golf course played by two teams with maybe five tv stars. Pieters is a promising lad. Stenson is a stud. Reed is built for this chest thumping bleacher bullshit, and Ryan Moore might need anti depressants.  They should talk to Trump about reality pitch and putt. In prime time with Trump strumpets?  Even if you lose you won't owe taxes.


Best post of the day.  8)
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Kalen Braley

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Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2016, 09:38:38 PM »
I wish I could find all those old threads where the trees house pontificated how a course like Lincoln Park in san Fran would be such a great match play course despite it being way too short and easy for the pros.


Would it be a total birdie binge if they did?  Of course


Would it be compelling golf given all the crazy stuff they'd be trying?  Of course as well.


« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 09:41:31 PM by Kalen Braley »

BCowan

Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2016, 09:38:47 PM »
I'd rather watch hops grow on a Doak NLE.

 ;D

I'd rather watch the fescue grow in rosscommon....

BCowan

Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2016, 09:40:45 PM »
Southern Hills deserves an RC. 

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2016, 10:39:29 PM »
Does someone want to defend why Hazeltime's amoebas were only raked at the bottom, by machine?
Sandbelt meets the Jones?

Bunker floors were handbrake with a double leaf rake. Sides were Brooke's and also smooth the the back of an accuform take.


Is this similar to what Royal Melbourne does?  The visual effect seemed very similar.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2016, 11:04:31 PM »
Sounds a bit like...


P.S...if it was so easy, why did his "skilled" teammates get blasted??





That's not the message of that fable!  Sorry, pet peeve of mine.  :)

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2016, 05:25:44 AM »
Does someone want to defend why Hazeltime's amoebas were only raked at the bottom, by machine?
Sandbelt meets the Jones?

Bunker floors were handbrake with a double leaf rake. Sides were Brooke's and also smooth the the back of an accuform take.

As I understand it front greenskeepers (whom have/are working there) RM only rakes the sides occasionally and even rakes floors 2x a week. The sand make up out there doesn't call for the formalness that American bunkers seem to have.
  I have never seen Sand Hills or Ballyneal, but maybe that's a better comparison. A lot of clubs with steep faces have being going to this since seeing RM on TV in 2013. In fact, many use wide, paint bushes to smooth/pack the edges and only rake the floors. Less washouts, too.


Is this similar to what Royal Melbourne does?  The visual effect seemed very similar.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

RussBaribault

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2016, 09:57:00 AM »
What will it take to make this a happy group? Every time I check in it seems people are complaining about golf balls, golf equipment golf courses ect ect.

This was the most exciting golf event I have seen in a long time. The course was great, I loved the layout. Loved the views and watching the best players in the world at the top of their game was awesome.
“Greatness courts failure, Romeo.”

“You may be right boss, but you know what, sometimes par is good enough to win”

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2016, 10:05:12 AM »
I sat behind the first hole yesterday and watched every match play through. The pin certainly didn't look easy to me as it was back left, tucked on a back ledge with a bunker long and a bunker short. What struck me was that nearly every player attacked the pin no matter where they were off the tee and there seemed to be no regard to setting up an appropriate angle of approach from off the tee.

Quite a few players missed the green long, likely in an attempt to get to the back ledge and set up an easy birdie putt. What was so amazing was the level of skill of the players from around the greens. Rory hit a great bunker shot that had to land in the rough that rolled to a couple of feet. And Westwood had a longer shot from the same bunker with a downhill lie that he managed to somehow hit to a foot. Impressive stuff.

Otherwise, it wasn't surprising that Hazeltine was giving up low scores. Scoring conditions were absolutely perfect. Yesterday afternoon was about 75*, no clouds, zero wind. Last week's rain made sure the fairways and greens were not firm and fast. And the rough was very short. So it was certainly set up for scoring.


The entire weekend is all match play though. So in reality I don't think it matters how difficult the golf course is? If Hazeltine was set up for a U.S. Open I think the matches would have had a much slower, less dramatic, pace.
H.P.S.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2016, 10:06:56 AM »
The course was set up to give the US team an advantage. Big, but wild, hitters off the tee (hence no rough). Very good putters (hence holes cut in middle of greens). Had they set it up like a US Open, it would've been akin to professional malpractice bordering on stupidity. I would fully expect the course in Paris in two years to be "rigged" to give the European squad the best possible chance of success. Because that's what home teams do.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2016, 01:08:18 PM »
Sounds a bit like...


P.S...if it was so easy, why did his "skilled" teammates get blasted??





That's not the message of that fable!  Sorry, pet peeve of mine.  :)


Bill,


I was referring to the comments by Justin Rose, not necessarily the OP.  The conditions are the same for everyone, its not like the US players were allowed to to tee it up from the ladies tees...


This Ryder cup was simple, the Euros were over-matched from the start and if it weren't for a few heroics from players like Rory and Pieters, the beat down woulda been much much worse.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2016, 01:34:03 PM »
Justin Rose is among the Jaka support crew:  ".."I thought it was very much a pro-am feel in terms of the pin placements," he said. "They were all middle of the green. I don't quite understand that, to be honest with you ... We want to showcase our skills. We want to be tested."Rose added that he felt the 17th hole, which he and Rickie Fowler both parred, was "an absolute joke."

"I just felt coming down the stretch, it was a little soft," he said"



http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/ryder-cup-2016-justin-rose-criticizes-set-hazeltine


Expected nothing less. Love learned his lesson in 2012:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-golf-pga-love-idUSBRE89G1MT20121017


If memory serves, only one player on Sunday got close to the pin tucked right on 17: Tiger.

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2016, 03:43:33 PM »
I'm not keeping track of "medal" scores, but not very interesting golf?  ;D


O.K. -- for those who didn't get it, my original post was intended as sarcasm.  Although I can understand those who'd criticize the set-up, I enjoyed watching the matches, even though a bit of a circus (not an atmosphere I'd want to see every weekend).  Beyond that, it was a good excuse on Sunday to avoid watching my Carolina Panthers get really whipped by the Atlanta Falcons.

Brett Hochstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2016, 04:14:09 PM »

The entire weekend is all match play though. So in reality I don't think it matters how difficult the golf course is? If Hazeltine was set up for a U.S. Open I think the matches would have had a much slower, less dramatic, pace.


It doesn't matter, except for the second thing you mention--drama and pace.


I've long been critical of the Ryder Cup because they place such low priority on architectural interest in their course selection, especially with regards to the match play format.  The European side is even worse with this given the classic types of courses they possess and pass over in favor of the overwatered, boring, '90s America'-styled courses they actually choose to play on. 


What makes a course great for match play is higher-variance, higher drama holes.  A "half par" hole, where yardage and/or design lends itself to scoring averages of 3.5, 4.5, etc., accomplishes this.  Holes with high risk/high reward accomplish this as well as holes where clever contouring can produce great crafty plays or big mistakes. 


Hazeltine, especially at major-championship prep, has very few of the types of holes listed above.  However, the set-up was not that of "major-championship prep."  By having it be more average or "pro-am" as Rose put it, the expected score for a given hole went from around par down to close to a half-par lower.  All of the sudden, you have higher variance on any given hole, lending to much more drama and emotional swings.  It would be very easy to make a course like this a par-defending slog, but you would end up with pretty dull matches with 7 straight halved holes on routine pars being a common thing.  Making it easier made it more interesting.


I still don't think Hazeltine is anything special as a piece of golf design, but if you deny how much fun, drama, and intensity there was on the course this weekend yesterday, well, as the great Keith Jackson once said with excellent adjective emphasis, "you're watching the wronnngg channel."
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2016, 08:47:49 PM »
Having played the course 10-15 times in a variety of conditions, I believe the course is more interesting than television suggests.  It is difficult to judge the effect of wind and slope from television and much of the interest at Hazeltine comes from those factors.  A normally exposed course played like it was in a dome last weekend. 
There are some very good holes at Hazeltine.  The 10th is fantastic - tumbling a significant distance down to a cool green that slopes right to left into the lake.  6 through 8 (15-17 Ryder Cup) are all very good holes that force the player to make choices.  The 3rd is also a good long par 5 with most of the interest caused by a valley that starts about 140 out from the green.  The other Par 4s are relatively straightforward. 1 is a fine introductory hole although a fairway lined by bunkers on both sides is not my favored form of design.  The green is quite good and the pin position for the final round made for interesting play in most of the matches.

9 and 18 are boring uphill long par 4's.  2 and 5 (14 Ryder Cup) are relatively awkward reverse camber holes. 12 is difficult because it is 520 yards to an elevated green but you do not do much thinking on the hole.  16 (7 Ryder Cup) has lost its teeth without wind for professionals although it is still a challenge for us.   I think they made a mistake playing 14 (5 Ryder Cup) at 300 yards.  It would have been more interesting at its normal 350 yard length with some players driving it near the green and others laying back.  From what I observed, pretty much everyone tried to drive the green making it basically a 300 yard par 3. The other 5s - 11 and 15 (11 and 6 Ryder Cup) - are simply long relatively flat par 5's around clusters of bunkers.  The par 3's are pretty similar with the 17th (8 Ryder Cup) presenting the most interest due to a very difficult green.Nonetheless, spending the weekend at the event as a marshall and watching play with my son is a terrific memory that will last a lifetime.  He wrangled us into the reserved seats at 1 tee for Sunday singles.  Most of the crowd sprinted to those grandstands at 7:30 am, 3-1/2 hours before the first tee time.  You could not really see any golf but after being on my feet for two days I was thrilled to have a chair and soak in the atmosphere.  We then took off to 15 to follow the Reed-McIlroy match to the end and then gambled wrong in thinking the winning point would be won at 16 or 17. 

Buck Wolter

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Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2016, 06:26:58 PM »
Also there Sunday with my Son and it was an epic event -- not as good of viewing as a Sunday at Augusta but definitely a bucket list kind of day, we did end up on 9 watching as Moore made the clinching putt. I suggested a buddy trip to France to some guys as I was really surprised how good of a time the Euros in attendance were having --even while getting drubbed. Also talked to a guy from Louisville who said it was the only golf event he goes to 'I don't want to watch 100 guys I've never heard of play golf at a PGA'.

Heard an interesting take on XM from Brian Katrek who said he has covered the last 8 or so Ryder Cups. He said the Americans finally figured out what the Europeans have long used to their advantage -- an easy set-up favors the home team. No one cheers for a halved par but making the first birdie or tying with a birdie gives huge roars that favor the home side -no cheers, no home advantage. Justin Rose won't admit it but according to Katrek that's exactly what we will see in France in 2 years. I thought it made sense.

Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2016, 06:39:42 PM »
Davis Love observed that his guys are putting way better, so he set the course up for a putting contest by putting all the pins in the middle. Seems quite clever to me this lad :)

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2016, 08:02:23 PM »
Eventually folks will figure out that it isn't the courses which can make matchplay great to watch...its the players. There is no such thing as good match or medal courses...courses are just courses.  Stick these guys in a parking lot and it would be good entertainment....any ole decent architecture will do. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hazeltine -- my sense is that the set up isn't defending par well
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2016, 09:56:22 PM »
Not only were the holes set in the middle, a number of holes were set behind backboards, especially on shorter holes where players had 8s to wedges in their hands.

I have not seen so many balls come back 10 plus feet since the balata era.  It was jolly fun.
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse