4 touring pro's recently played CPC. What did they score? (Not OT)

[Jim Nugent]

4 touring pro's, including some who have won majors, played CPC not long ago, under calm conditions, and using modern equipment.  Any guesses/predictions on what they scored? 

I'll give the details in a bit, along with some thoughts on what bearing (if any) this might have on golf course architecture. 

[Phil McDade]

Just a guess -- they averaged -8 per player for 18 holes.

[John Kirk]

I will guess they averaged -5 (66) per player, with the best score of 64.

[Tom_Doak]

The thing about Cypress Point [and any links course] is that it's built to be playable for the members in the wind.  When it's not windy, the course is open to very low numbers.  I've heard of 61 and 62 at Pacific Dunes, which is comparable in terms of difficulty.  [Gary Woodland even shot 59 at Dismal River.]  But they're not going to go low consistently.


Cypress Point has a course rating of 72.4.  Tour pros today are generally +5 or +6 handicaps ... so that means that the best two out of four rounds [the two keeper rounds for handicap purposes] should average 66, probably with a range of 63 to 69.  But that average INCLUDES average windy conditions ... on a calm day, scores should be lower than average.

[Pete_Pittock]

They probably would have scored better with local caddies than their tour caddies. 10, 11 and 16 would be the only hard holes.  Course rating 73.1 at 6500 yds. Guess their handicaps are -6. Little rough.
So I guess a their composite was 270, with a low of 66, assuming they used their caddies.

Note: I did not crib from TD. The course rating I gave was from this year's scorecard.

[Sven Nilsen]

If it was Janzen, I'm guessing 75.  He just shot 83 at one of the Bandon courses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

In addition to what Tom Doak stated, the time of day also influences the conditions of play.
 
Play early in the morning when it's cool and damp and the ball doesn't go as far.
 
Like many courses, I suspect that the hole locations are more benign on Sunday's, Lady's or Couples days.
 
Did they play the course when the greens were fast or after they had been punched or treated.
 
A lot of variables.
 
CPC is one of the most enjoyable courses to play on a daily basis.
 
I would like to see the PGA Tour Pros play CPC with the equipment in play on opening day.
 
 

[Peter Pallotta]

Well, I'll take a guess too -- there were a couple of 59s.

Which proves that great architecture is great for EVERYBODY, and that a tour pro on a windless day will have even MORE fun than the rest of us.

Peter

PS Patrick - my other guess is that the best of today's tour pros using the equipment available when the course first opened would shoot exactly the same scores as were shot back then, by the best players of THAT day. 

 

[Charlie_Bell]

Peter,


Disagree about today's pros matching the old-timers' scores with old-time equipment.  Current pros would make good contact -- possibly at higher swing speeds -- and they might figure out the whippiness of the shafts, but I suspect the sidespin of the old balls would confound them.

[Ken Moum]

Peter,


Disagree about today's pros matching the old-timers' scores with old-time equipment.  Current pros would make good contact -- possibly at higher swing speeds -- and they might figure out the whippiness of the shafts, but I suspect the sidespin of the old balls would confound them.

Not for long.

I have several clubs I shafted with the same fiberglass marker stakes everyone uses for alignmentioned sticks. They are VERY flexible.

Every good player I have ever given one to takes a couple of practice swings and stripes the first ball they hit.

Not one player with a 15 handicap or higher has been able to hit even after several  balls.

K

[Charlie_Bell]

K,

Are you and your friends playing with 1926-era balls?  That's the piece of equipment that, I contend, would confound even the pros.

[Ken Moum]

K,

Are you and your friends playing with 1926-era balls?  That's the piece of equipment that, I contend, would confound even the pros.

Well, obviously we weren't.  But I think the difference is overstated.  1926 was before the USGA'S put limits on the ball, and as wise a man as Ralph Livingston once said he thought Bobby Jones payed with balls as hot as the Pro V1. And they both smaller and heavier than balls from, say,  the sixties.

After the Topflite came out Tour pros switched back and forth between them and balata balls without being baffled.

And they were further apart in spin characteristics than today's balls are from those before the 1.62" ball was mandated.

FWIW,  the one-ball rule was created because of the switching I  mentioned.

I have, as recently as a couple of weeks ago brought out some "new" wound balls I stashed to use with hickories.

K

[Jim Nugent]

The four pros were Davis Love, Bubba Watson, Ricky Fowler and Nick Watney.  It was supposed to be a sequel to the famous match at CPC between Hogan, Nelson, Ward and Venturi. 

I took some modest liberties with 'recently': they played in October 2012.  All four players had won on the PGA tour at the time, with over 30 victories between them (now it's closer to 40).  Bubba was the reigning Masters champ.

Their scores:

Love          67
Bubba        70
Watney      71
Fowler        73

Some questions that immediately come to mind:

1. Why did they score so high?  Even if this was their first time at CPC, I would expect players of that caliber to dissect a 6500+ yard course. 
2. Would other tour players score similarly there?  Assume the most diabolical pin positions possible.     
3. If the answer to the 2nd question is yes, what does that say about the need to make courses ultra-long, to defend against elite players taking them apart? 

I realize this was a small sample, both in time and of players.  Even so, the article that covered this said Hogan's 63 is still the course record (as of 10-2012).  It makes me wonder what lessons (if any) CPC might have in this day of 7500-8000 yard courses.   

[Charlie_Bell]

1.  Sample size, green speeds, October.  Love-Watson-Watney-Fowler vs. Hogan-Nelson...
2.  Pure speculation.  One can't extrapolate from this sample size.
3.  My only conclusion:  It's too bad the "Doral" was moved to Mexico instead of to CPC. Would be fun to watch, even without spectators.

[Matt_Cohn]

Even so, the article that covered this said Hogan's 63 is still the course record (as of 10-2012). 

My understanding is that breaking Hogan's record would be frowned upon; that the proper play for someone at -9 or better on the 18th tee is to turn around and hit one into the ocean; and that this has happened more than once.

[Terry Lavin]

Even so, the article that covered this said Hogan's 63 is still the course record (as of 10-2012). 

My understanding is that breaking Hogan's record would be frowned upon; that the proper play for someone at -9 or better on the 18th tee is to turn around and hit one into the ocean; and that this has happened more than once.

As it should be.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jim,


total distance of a course is less relevant than the distance of shots hit into greens. If the players of 2012 were hitting irons off the tee where Hogan was able to hit driver there would be little difference in how the course played distance wise. Add to this differing pin positions and it becomes hard to compare. Finally, as good as the modern foursome are none of them are in the same class as Hogan.


Jon

[Charlie_Bell]

Or Nelson.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I dunno about this.
It's probably more like....


- Davis goes to bed at 10 at the Lodge after texting the boys to confirm the next day at CPC
- Nick, Bubba and Rickie are in San Fran at a party when the get the text.
- "Shit, we have to play CPCwith Davis at 9 tomorrow am. What are we going to do?"
- They finish the bottle service at the club then pour themselves into a limo and arrive in Carmel at 3:30 am
- with no warm up and fuzzy vision, they scrape it around and Davis wins $500 from each


I played CPC in benign conditions and thought it was incredible, but not hard at all. I would have guessed that a tour pro would shoot 65-68 all day.

[Joel_Stewart]

The pros play such a different game it's hard to relate. Many still play CPC casually so the pressure is off.

A few years ago I played in a group and Phil Mickelson was behind us. On #10, I killed a drive and was even with the bunker. When we were on the green you could see Phil had flown it over the bunker. Later he said he hit 9 iron into the green.  He shot 73 that day.

[Jim Nugent]

When CPC was part of the Crosby, how did the pro's score there compared to Pebble? 

[Michael Essig]

When CPC was part of the Crosby, how did the pro's score there compared to Pebble?

Toughest of all the Crosby courses.

[Jim Nugent]

Even so, the article that covered this said Hogan's 63 is still the course record (as of 10-2012). 

My understanding is that breaking Hogan's record would be frowned upon; that the proper play for someone at -9 or better on the 18th tee is to turn around and hit one into the ocean; and that this has happened more than once.

Interesting, though the pro's played CPC in the Crosby each year till 1991.  I doubt they hit into the ocean from the 18th tee.  Still, no one scored better than 63.  That suggests to me the course had some pretty sharp teeth to it during that event.  If Michael is right CPC had more teeth even than Pebble, which still hosts U.S. Opens and has given fits to everyone except Tiger in 2000. 

The sample was small, but even so, no one here came close to guessing the right scores -- we weren't in the right zip code.   

[Rob Marshall]

Even so, the article that covered this said Hogan's 63 is still the course record (as of 10-2012). 

My understanding is that breaking Hogan's record would be frowned upon; that the proper play for someone at -9 or better on the 18th tee is to turn around and hit one into the ocean; and that this has happened more than once.

Interesting, though the pro's played CPC in the Crosby each year till 1991.  I doubt they hit into the ocean from the 18th tee.  Still, no one scored better than 63.  That suggests to me the course had some pretty sharp teeth to it during that event.  If Michael is right CPC had more teeth even than Pebble, which still hosts U.S. Opens and has given fits to everyone except Tiger in 2000. 

The sample was small, but even so, no one here came close to guessing the right scores -- we weren't in the right zip code.   

I don't think you can compare Pebble at the Crosby and Pebble during the open.  I thought Spyglass was much harder than Pebble in resort conditions.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Even so, the article that covered this said Hogan's 63 is still the course record (as of 10-2012). 

My understanding is that breaking Hogan's record would be frowned upon; that the proper play for someone at -9 or better on the 18th tee is to turn around and hit one into the ocean; and that this has happened more than once.

What would Hogan have to say about this? My guess is he would puke.

Anyway, if the pros scored lower than people expected my guess is it's down to putting. (Fewer 1-putts than typical for their games.) Just a guess.