Is this a good hole, great hole, or bad hole?

[Jason Thurman]

Last week I played Corales, a 2010 Tom Fazio design in La Republica Dominicana that will be hosting a Web.com Tour event next month. Part of the same complex as the Punta Cana resort and airport, Corales is a high-end course with some really sweet and scenic oceanfront acreage. Most notable is the land occupied by the course's spectacular 18th hole:





For reference, here's the yardage book:





The question is simply the one asked by the topic. Is this hole good, great, bad, indifferent, fantastic, all-world, a missed opportunity, average, or what?

[Tom_Doak]

I saw a hole very similar to that one a couple of weeks ago in Iowa -- the 18th at Harvester.  There a 60-acre lake is substituted for the Caribbean.


I remember back when we were starting Sebonack, we had a call to interview for the Corales job.  I was so busy at the time that I sent Bruce Hepner in my place for the interview.  He came back and reported that the client, Mr. Rainieri, was adamant to build the 18th hole almost exactly as it is today ... except with the tee right up on the bay, so a long hitter could go for the green with their tee shot.  I wasn't immediately enamored with the idea of a potential client insisting on a particular hole, so we didn't try to get the job.  [I doubt we would have gotten it anyway, but that was the moment when we might have -- everybody in NY told the developer I was the new "it" designer.]


I don't think it's a great hole, or a bad hole -- or "the Mother of all golf holes," as the owner says in the yardage book.  It is set up  to reward long hitters, that's for sure; shorter hitters have to play AWAY FROM THE HOLE off the tee.

[Jason Thurman]

I thought of 18 at The Harvester as well, which is obviously a much flatter and less dramatic hole. My feelings on the two holes are pretty similar in the sense that I love some of the aspects of each and find other aspects of them annoying. I certainly prefer the view at Corales, but I think I like The Harvester better as a (w)hole.


I'll be curious to see how they set up the 18th at Corales for the Web.com guys next month. That hole will be driveable for some if the wind lays down, or unless they use one of the "oceanview" tees for 17.

[Benjamin Litman]

By definition, no hole built in the 21st century can be the "Mother of all golf holes."

[Jason Topp]

I saw a hole very similar to that one a couple of weeks ago in Iowa -- the 18th at Harvester.  There a 60-acre lake is substituted for the Caribbean.

The thing I like about the hole at the Harvester is that the player can be rewarded for hitting a tee shot close to the water, without regard for pure length or the need to carry anything.  A good drive close to the water gives one a chance to get near the green.  A bailout left makes it a three shot hole.

[Thomas Dai]

Has a bit of the 2nd at Tralee about it without the elevation change but with a bit more of a curve. My stance would be a great hole for photography (and publicity) less so for golf.
Atb

[MClutterbuck]

From the two back tees, a longer drive is required to be left with a 162y shot to the green than if you aim further "up" the hole and are left with just 90 yards... this is an anomaly. The 3 bunkers at 162 yards from the green seem to be a mistake in design. It seems that if any, they should be placed closer to the green and be very deep and penalizing.

[David Davis]

Jason,


First of all I've not played the hole so I hesitate to comment. If I can only judge by the photo 3 things pop out to me.


1. I don't love the look of the bunkering it looks very random and unnatural.
2. The fairway as far as I can tell looks very bulldozed and unnaturally flat.
3. There is a line of shrubbery along the seashore being protected by that bunker. Also looks very contrived to my eye.


Again, maybe unfair as I've not played it. It's beautiful setting no doubt and what could be a nice risk reward hole. Maybe plays like that and certainly rewards either a really long or really well placed drive but I doubt even a well placed drive provides a realistic shot at the green to anyone but the very best of players. Mr. Topp is likely a low single figure hcp'er (only a guess).


I'd say nice but realistically a missed opportunity. Again just a critical opinion based on a pretty cool photo.

[Greg Tallman]

Did not play Corales (played TOTD & Punta Espada) on my visit to the area last winter but would have to say the hole appears overbunkered and overdesigned.

Perhaps 17 green could have been set to the left and the 18th played more along the coast versus over the water. It's only a 250 carry from the 481 tees leaving 75-90 yards. Wind is no doubt a factor but...

[Jim_Kennedy]

The quote from the yardage book is disturbing enough.


With the creation of the 18th hole, we considered it to be the mother of all golf holes.

[jeffwarne]

seems like they wasted a cool spot for a great par 4 with actual strategy and a par 3-or vise versa
a small price to pay for the "Mother of all golf holes" though

[BHoover]

My eyes! My eyes!

[Bradley Anderson]

It needs a couple more tees.

[John Connolly]

Does it really need 10 tees? .... 10?


I'm all for play it forward but c'mon ...

[Tim_Weiman]

Jason,


It is not a good hole or a great hole or even a bad hole. It has its own category:


It is a advertising hole. The owner was convinced it would look good in pictures and bring business to his development.


I have experienced this phenomenon once before, about fifteen years ago at a golf course in Ohio built by a guy who inherited $20 million, wanted to build a golf course and was convinced he could design and build a course equal to or better than any living architect.


One of the holes was the worst golf hole I have ever seen. I tried to talk the owner out of it, as did his long time best friend.


No chance. The hole was designed to be an advertising hole, a hole to be viewed from the adjacent highway.


It was awful, but it did catch the attention of drivers speeding by wondering what the rest of the course was like.

[Bill_McBride]

Reminds me of the RTJ hole at the Dunes in Myrtle Beach with a whole lot of frou frou added for emphasis. 


The bunkers at 162 are a blight; if you can carry the ocean there you should be rewarded. 


You need to play left anyway because of the angle of the green. 

[Keith Buntrock]

Interesting to me that the yardage guide includes the previous green complex area as well as a seemingly random green complex far beyond the 18th green.
The "mother of all golf holes" extended family perhaps...

To answer the initial question, it looks like an average if not somewhat awkward hole to me. But for more fun if you carry it 285.

[Josh Tarble]

the hole looks like it's perfect for a vacation/resort course.  To me there is only one option - going right at the green - you either pull it off or you don't.  If you do, you'll remember it for a lifetime, if you don't you'll just want to play the course again to try it over. 

I wouldn't want it on my home course but if I'm traveling to the DR for golf, I think this hole works just fine.

[Jason Thurman]

the hole looks like it's perfect for a vacation/resort course.  To me there is only one option - going right at the green - you either pull it off or you don't.  If you do, you'll remember it for a lifetime, if you don't you'll just want to play the course again to try it over. 

I wouldn't want it on my home course but if I'm traveling to the DR for golf, I think this hole works just fine.

Depending on the tee you're playing and the wind strength, you could definitely get on in one shot under certain circumstances. One cool thing about the hole is that even if the green isn't reachable on a given day, anyone who can carry it 200+ is still probably hitting across the chasm on the tee shot if playing from the appropriate set of tees (you have 10 options, after all). So even if the reward isn't reaching the green, you still get the satisfaction of seeing a ball cross the ocean and climb over a cliff to land safely on the other side. It's definitely memorable when you make it, even if you get there with a weak slice into the wind that barely makes the 240 yard carry from the brown tees...

[Mark Pritchett]

Just call it a "Cape" hole.  Now it is great!

[Tom Allen]

The inclusion of the other green near the tee boxes threw me for a loop as well.

[Doug Siebert]

I guess the point of those numbered teeboxes is to give you shorter carries? And with all those extra tees they missed one obvious one, where the 251 sprinkler head is. Give those playing the senior tees a chance to hit a power fade off that slope and run it on!

I do admit to being kind of curious what the number is from the 481 tee to the green or at least make the bailout bunker in front of it, I'm guessing maybe 250 to the bunker, almost 300 to the left/front edge of the green? What the hell, drop a dozen balls and GO for it 

[Jim_Kennedy]

What it calls for in yards to clear the bunkers and land the ball a couple of yards onto the front of green. Hope I didn't miss any teeing areas.   
Ed: I think I missed one just above the 275 blocks. It's 255.

[RJ_Daley]

The hole is remarkably similar to the 11th at Bayside in Ogallala Nebraska.  Bayside is decidedly longer, but the shape and playing strategies are quite the same.  I'll agree that it is a sales brochure hole.  I reckon if you make birdie or eagle, it becomes great. If you x out, you hate it. 

[Gib_Papazian]

http://www.golfpelicanhill.com/courses/north-course

This is a copy of the 17th hole of the North Course at Pelican Hill in Newport Beach, CA.

Given the fact I have fully embraced my template-worshiping Raynorosity, there is no way I can pitch feces from my cage on the sidelines . . . . . . but is the same hoie.

Fazio is like a great painter who has decided to ply his trade by feeding the public repetitious eye-candy. Seth brought new and unique interpretations of classical arrangements . . . . . Fazio just repeats his formulaic holes because it give the peeps what they want.

I'll quote a long-departed (and hopelessly controversial) Treehouse trust fund baby: "There is plenty of room in the tent for all perspectives."

Never played a Fazio course I did not like . . . . . . . never played one I found as interesting as the worst C&C either.

So, do you want dependable, consistent and well presented pop music? Abba probably sold 200,000,000 records . . . . . . but I'm still a Deadhead who listens to old Pink Floyd, Peter Gabriel-era Genesis and Yes. Therefore, I am in the minority. If popularity is the measuring stick, we are on the fringes.