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Bill_Yates

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Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2016, 12:44:03 AM »
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2016, 08:57:22 AM »
I disagree with the premises above.


Slow play is driven by slow golfers.
Slow golf is driven by the odd curiousity of a 4-some's "need" to watch everyone else conduct their business - aka: a pre-shot routine - instead of preparing for one's own shot while others are playing.


Simply put: when a 4-some of golfers of all levels plays "ready golf", they can easily and comfortably play in 3:30.
Not only have we discussed this for hours, but we brought the math to the course on several occasions, took videos of all players and reviewed all the data over beers and dinners.


For example: my pre-shot routine is 18 seconds from the moment I step up onto the tee. I put the tee in the ground, one simple practice swing, I stand behind the ball, take my line and step in and hit it. Yes, I play quickly.


The PGA tour average is 37 seconds. Many amateurs take longer. here's how we broke it down:


1. Get your yardage and club selection while your partners are hitting
 - We believe that once range finders are approved on PGA tour, then this may trickle down to the retail golfer.


 2. No need to all watch each guy go through his routine, pay attention to your playing partners for sure, but most importantly be prepared to play.

3. Cut your pre-shot routine down to 25 seconds instead of 40 seconds.
4. Start lining up your putts while others are away. If you are not in other player's lines, then put your ball down. For God's sake please if you are going to stalk your 12' par putt from all angles, please do so while your pals are hitting their 27' birdie putts!

When a "guest" joins us, here is how the math breaks down (and we have timed this on-course):
[/size]
[/size]A. Pre-shot routine of 40 seconds, instead of 25 seconds x 85 shots (average 10-12 HDCP-er) = added time per player of 21.25 minutes per round.
[/size]B. Players who walk (or ride) from their partner's ball to theirs after watching him hit = 15 seconds x 18 shots (none on par 3s, one on par 4s, and 2 on par 5s) = 4.5 minutes per round per player.
]C. You can see here that ~ 20 mins per player per round can be added (or shaved) simply by modifying your preparedness to hit your shot when it's your turn.

This has been proven to us week in and week out.
When and if a culture of "ready golf" is adopted, you will then finally see this issue addressed positively. Everything else is just window-dressing.

No one is walking faster, no one is hurrying, everyone is putting out. What we do is eliminate the "dead time" and ask players to prepare WHILE others are executing their shots. Stop spectating and be ready.





« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 09:46:44 AM by Ian Mackenzie »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2016, 09:03:57 AM »
I disagree with the premises above.


Slow play is driven by slow golfers.
Slow golf is driven by the odd curiousity of a 4-some's "need" to watch everyone else conduct their business - aka: a pre-shot routine - instead of preparing for one's own shot while others are playing.


Simply put: when a 4-some of golfers of all levels plays "ready golf", they can easily and comfortably play in 3:30.
Not only have we discussed this for hours, but we brought the math to the course on several occasions, took videos of all players and reviewed all the data over beers and dinners.


For example: my pre-shot routine is 18 seconds from the moment I step up onto the tee. I put the tee in the ground, one simple practice swing, I stand behind the ball, take my line and step in and hit it. Yes, I play quickly.


The PGA tour average is 37 seconds. Many amateurs take longer. here's how we broke it down:


1. Get your yardage and club selection while your partners are hitting
 - We believe that once range finders are approved on PGA tour, then this may trickle down to the retail golfer.

2. No need to all watch each guy go through his routine, pay attention to your playing partners for sure, but most importantly be prepared to play.

3. Cut your pre-shot routine down to 25 seconds instead of 40 seconds.
4. Start lining up your putts while others are away. If you are not in other player's lines, then put your ball down. For God's sake please if you are going to stalk your 12' par putt from all angles, please do so while your pals are hitting their 27' birdie putts!

When a "guest" joins us, here is how the math breaks down (and we have timed this on-course):
A. Pre-shot routine of 40 seconds, instead of 25 seconds x 85 shots (average 10-12 HDCP-er) = added time per player of 21.25 minutes per round.B. Players who walk (or ride) from their partner's ball to theirs after watching him hit = 15 seconds x 18 shots (none[size=78%] on par 3s, one on par 4s, and 2 on par 5s) = 4.5 minutes per round per player.
 [/size]C. You can see here that ~ 20 mins per player per round can be added (or shaved) simply by modifying your preparedness to hit your shot when it's your turn. This has been proven to us week in and week out.[size=78%]
[/size]When and if a culture of "ready golf" is adopted, you will then finally see this issue addressed positively. Everything else is just window-dressing.

No one is walking faster, no one is hurrying, everyone is putting out. What we do is eliminate the "dead time" and ask players to prepare WHILE others are executing their shots. Stop spectating and be ready.


awesome post.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2016, 09:58:49 AM »
Nevermind waiting on a guy to hit, I am making my way to my ball rather than standing behind the first guy to hit. 

I would also caution against not watching your partners' shot finish...that can save more time than it takes when it comes time to find the ball. 

One of my pet peeves is seeing four guys searching for a ball.  For crying out loud, three look while one plays and then switch out.  The worst is when a golfer walks to his ball, looks and sees there is a lost ball situation, then walks over to help look before hitting the ball he is standing next to!  Muy estupido!

Whitty

Your 4ball play in the UK, is it mostly with GCAers in GCA events?  I suspect this is the case and that this lot is incredibly slow.  When I play 4ball with individual GCAers or with others, I certainly expect to finish in less than 4 hours...and far more often than not we do.  That said, I don't recall having many issues in playing less than 4 hours in the US.  For the most part, its competitions which really drag on...not so much friendly golf. Despite my reluctance to play early in comps, these days, if it is reasonable to do so I will just to avoid slow play...that and I don't sign up for many opens anymore.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 10:01:15 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2016, 11:23:04 AM »
Sean touches on something that should shame GCA.


Several of the slowest rounds I have ever played have been part of GCA events.  I remember at one BUDA being appalled as we stood on a tee, a couple of holes behind the group in front, whilst a member of this site, who had the honour, started to talk to the rest of the 4 ball about the merits of the hole we were about to play.  Just play your bloody shot.......
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2016, 11:30:44 AM »
Sean touches on something that should shame GCA.


Several of the slowest rounds I have ever played have been part of GCA events.  I remember at one BUDA being appalled as we stood on a tee, a couple of holes behind the group in front, whilst a member of this site, who had the honour, started to talk to the rest of the 4 ball about the merits of the hole we were about to play.  Just play your bloody shot.......

I just laugh when I see these pace of play threads.  I've never been at a GCA where the pace was less than 4.5 hours. 

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2016, 12:20:08 PM »
I just laugh everytime I hear about all of the cures for slow play or the web sites that advertise a proven success formula.
Just like in highway traffic at rush hour, you only can drive as fast as the guy in front of you.


You can try all the new "on-ramp lights", car pool lanes, truck/bus lanes, etc, the fact remains that when the asshole in front of you goes 50 mph (83 kph), then so do you.


My two last 5 hour rounds were both in Europe - one at Castle Stuart and the other at the European Club - and both times we were NOT behind American cart-ballers.


Sure, you can tell people not to look for balls or that they should drop in a designated spot, space the tee times....blah, blah. Congratufuckinglations, all you did was eliminate the 5 hour round.


Then you will be left with "the 4 hour round" - still an eternity should you want growth to return to the game and millennials, like my kids, to take an interest. Economic drivers should eventually trump (sorry, bad word) the needs of selfish D-bags who want to stroll a course like it is their own private park. Hey, fine...but do that at 2:00 pm and not at 8:00 am please!


Golf needs to be played in 3:00 - 3:30 for it to be deemed an option for the new generation of players. To do that, you need to play faster. To play faster without playing "rushed", you need to play ready golf.


Edit: Sorry, let me congratulate Bill Yates' initiatives as I truly admire your dedication to battling this epidemic.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 12:22:45 PM by Ian Mackenzie »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2016, 12:59:42 PM »
I disagree with the premises above.


Slow play is driven by slow golfers.
Slow golf is driven by the odd curiousity of a 4-some's "need" to watch everyone else conduct their business - aka: a pre-shot routine - instead of preparing for one's own shot while others are playing.


Simply put: when a 4-some of golfers of all levels plays "ready golf", they can easily and comfortably play in 3:30.
Not only have we discussed this for hours, but we brought the math to the course on several occasions, took videos of all players and reviewed all the data over beers and dinners.


For example: my pre-shot routine is 18 seconds from the moment I step up onto the tee. I put the tee in the ground, one simple practice swing, I stand behind the ball, take my line and step in and hit it. Yes, I play quickly.


The PGA tour average is 37 seconds. Many amateurs take longer. here's how we broke it down:


1. Get your yardage and club selection while your partners are hitting
 - We believe that once range finders are approved on PGA tour, then this may trickle down to the retail golfer.


 2. No need to all watch each guy go through his routine, pay attention to your playing partners for sure, but most importantly be prepared to play.

3. Cut your pre-shot routine down to 25 seconds instead of 40 seconds.
4. Start lining up your putts while others are away. If you are not in other player's lines, then put your ball down. For God's sake please if you are going to stalk your 12' par putt from all angles, please do so while your pals are hitting their 27' birdie putts!

When a "guest" joins us, here is how the math breaks down (and we have timed this on-course):

A. Pre-shot routine of 40 seconds, instead of 25 seconds x 85 shots (average 10-12 HDCP-er) = added time per player of 21.25 minutes per round.
B. Players who walk (or ride) from their partner's ball to theirs after watching him hit = 15 seconds x 18 shots (none on par 3s, one on par 4s, and 2 on par 5s) = 4.5 minutes per round per player.
]C. You can see here that ~ 20 mins per player per round can be added (or shaved) simply by modifying your preparedness to hit your shot when it's your turn.

This has been proven to us week in and week out.
When and if a culture of "ready golf" is adopted, you will then finally see this issue addressed positively. Everything else is just window-dressing.

No one is walking faster, no one is hurrying, everyone is putting out. What we do is eliminate the "dead time" and ask players to prepare WHILE others are executing their shots. Stop spectating and be ready.


Very well stated. My only build would be to suggest match play, IMO, tends to reduce spectating.
Tim Weiman

Philip Hensley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2016, 01:40:27 PM »
Never seem to have problems with pace of play at TWGS events!

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2016, 01:48:54 PM »



For example: my pre-shot routine is 18 seconds from the moment I step up onto the tee. I put the tee in the ground, one simple practice swing, I stand behind the ball, take my line and step in and hit it. Yes, I play quickly.






I suppose you are a pithy commentator too. You may be a fast walker but you aren't a fast player with that routine. I learned the game never taking a practice swing simply because our pro told us it wasn't allowed. He also worked on the grounds and didn't need the extra divots. What is the point of a practice swing for a "fast player"?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #60 on: April 05, 2016, 01:58:33 PM »
Ian,


I have been acting out your routine in my office. Thanks. My conclusion is that you do not have an 18 second routine, you have a routine that takes a minimum of 18 seconds.

Wayne_Freedman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2016, 02:33:53 PM »

"Good pace of play is built into the clubs culture."
[/size][/color]
[/size]Love that. [/color]
[/size][/color]

While my club consistently hits a 4 hour pace on Saturday mornings, it could be much quicker.


One of our biggest hurdles is the first group out in the morning. The dew sweepers have had the first 2 tee times for the past 25 or 30 years and their paces has slowed, but they don't seem to realize it and while the pro shop staff is keenly aware their speed sets the pace for the rest of the course they are apprehensive to do something about it. This is a tough spot as our pace is more than acceptable, so the concession is made towards the long term members but it is recognizable that it could be much quicker.


Another issue, that is seemingly growing is the resistance to let quicker groups play through. Yesterday morning I tee'd off in the last group of our morning block. With a full course of players in front of me it was understood that my groups pace was going to be set by the course in front of us.  I noticed on the first hole that the group 2 in front was moving at a good pace down the second hole, but the group right in front was not. I began a timer on the second hold, measuring how much time we had to wait on them presumably until they let us through. After 18 holes they were always a hole behind the group ahead and they had held us up for 45 minutes. After the round I ran into the foresome and one of the members apologized "if they had held us up". I told him no need to apologize, just let us through. This evoked a chuckle, he did not get my comment, So I told him that I had timed them and we had waited on them for 45 minutes. Once again blank faces.


The issue of passing through quicker groups seems to be mostly ignored by the older and younger players. As someone of the millennial generation, It's rather embarrassing how much other millennial players just don't seem to care about their place on the course. Good pace of play is built into the clubs culture. Consciously or unconsciously the members establish their own pace. For one to change their clubs pace I think it would take quite a number of people recognizing the problem and being diligent in adjusting the members view of it. I've always liked the clocks as it is a good passive reminder, but there needs to be some formalized steps taken to. New rules on tee time positions and the expected pace could be helpful. Something like all players who tee off before 9am are expected to play at a pace below 3:45, If any player fails to meet that pace for 2 rounds within a month will not be allowed to tee off at that time for the next 2 months.

Wayne_Freedman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2016, 02:35:53 PM »

Like that



I disagree with the premises above.


Slow play is driven by slow golfers.
Slow golf is driven by the odd curiousity of a 4-some's "need" to watch everyone else conduct their business - aka: a pre-shot routine - instead of preparing for one's own shot while others are playing.


Simply put: when a 4-some of golfers of all levels plays "ready golf", they can easily and comfortably play in 3:30.
Not only have we discussed this for hours, but we brought the math to the course on several occasions, took videos of all players and reviewed all the data over beers and dinners.


For example: my pre-shot routine is 18 seconds from the moment I step up onto the tee. I put the tee in the ground, one simple practice swing, I stand behind the ball, take my line and step in and hit it. Yes, I play quickly.


The PGA tour average is 37 seconds. Many amateurs take longer. here's how we broke it down:


1. Get your yardage and club selection while your partners are hitting
 - We believe that once range finders are approved on PGA tour, then this may trickle down to the retail golfer.

2. No need to all watch each guy go through his routine, pay attention to your playing partners for sure, but most importantly be prepared to play.

3. Cut your pre-shot routine down to 25 seconds instead of 40 seconds.
4. Start lining up your putts while others are away. If you are not in other player's lines, then put your ball down. For God's sake please if you are going to stalk your 12' par putt from all angles, please do so while your pals are hitting their 27' birdie putts!

When a "guest" joins us, here is how the math breaks down (and we have timed this on-course):
A. Pre-shot routine of 40 seconds, instead of 25 seconds x 85 shots (average 10-12 HDCP-er) = added time per player of 21.25 minutes per round.B. Players who walk (or ride) from their partner's ball to theirs after watching him hit = 15 seconds x 18 shots (none[size=78%] on par 3s, one on par 4s, and 2 on par 5s) = 4.5 minutes per round per player.
 [/size]C. You can see here that ~ 20 mins per player per round can be added (or shaved) simply by modifying your preparedness to hit your shot when it's your turn. This has been proven to us week in and week out.When and if a culture of "ready golf" is adopted, you will then finally see this issue addressed positively. Everything else is just window-dressing.

No one is walking faster, no one is hurrying, everyone is putting out. What we do is eliminate the "dead time" and ask players to prepare WHILE others are executing their shots. Stop spectating and be ready.


awesome post.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2016, 02:58:38 PM »
Ian,


I have been acting out your routine in my office. Thanks. My conclusion is that you do not have an 18 second routine, you have a routine that takes a minimum of 18 seconds.


I suppose you are a pithy commentator too. You may be a fast walker but you aren't a fast player with that routine.


Came all the way out from under your bridge for that?
Weak sauce for sure, especially as you are trying to broaden your editorial with off-topic remarks.


I have it on video. PM me your email and I can send it to you.


I know you are one of the "zombie players" that I dread on any golf course.
Not to worry, plenty of real estate out there.


Keep it civil please, John.


Cheers.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 04:11:27 PM by Ian Mackenzie »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2016, 03:16:37 PM »
No need Ian....

I found the video online!!   ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIK86gr4vks

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2016, 03:53:47 PM »
Ian,


I have been acting out your routine in my office. Thanks. My conclusion is that you do not have an 18 second routine, you have a routine that takes a minimum of 18 seconds.


Came all the way out from under your bridge for that?
Weak sauce for sure, especially as you are trying to broaden your editorial with off-topic remarks.


I have it on video. PM me your email and I can send it to you.


I know you are one of the "zombie players" that I dread on any golf course.
Not to worry, plenty of real estate out there.


Keep it civil please, John.


Cheers.

In all civility I ask anyone to recreate a pre-shot routine of 18 seconds that includes a practice swing and call it quick. Just look at your watch and imagine someone already on the tee, thus knowing his club and yardage, and count along for 18 seconds. It is literally an eternity.

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2016, 03:56:54 PM »
Move all the tee boxes up one box but keep all the colors the same. 


Space the tee times out to 12 minutes.


James: with all due respect, that's bullshit. Why not dumb down the game even more and allow only 3 groups per hour?

Golf is not supposed to be easy. If people want an easy sport, I suggest walking or jumping jacks or tiddlywinks.





The question was how to speed up play. 

Part of the reason play is so fast in Great Britain is that the courses are not so log, the greens are not so fast, and there are not many places to lose balls.  The courses are also not nearly as crowded for the most part.
I've played a LOT of golf in Britain... the reasons the games are often faster are:
  • Matchplay instead of strokeplay
  • Two-ball courses instead of four
  • Tight routing
  • Lots of foursome games in UK
  • US players playing out every hole for handicap score
When I've played in fourballs in the UK it takes just as long as it does in the US... usually a minimum of 4 hours.


So have I and outside of the overcrowded trophy courses that are visited by large numbers of visitors, the pace of play for 4 balls in the UK is still way faster than almost every place I have seen here in the states. 




Also, I would assert that there is some need to separate out the crowdedness of the course factors from golfer specific factors in debating the pace of play issue.  On an overcrowded course, there is much less you can do to speed up play, even though there is still a lot of potential there.


The reason I bring up the UK vs. USA comparison in this context is that I think so much of slow play is cultural.  Golf in the UK is something people routinely do after work and before sunset, so there is a built in reason to play fast.  Saturday golf in the USA has become an all day thing and that is really at the root of the slow play problem. 





Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #67 on: April 05, 2016, 04:40:50 PM »
Ian,


I have been acting out your routine in my office. Thanks. My conclusion is that you do not have an 18 second routine, you have a routine that takes a minimum of 18 seconds.




Came all the way out from under your bridge for that?
Weak sauce for sure, especially as you are trying to broaden your editorial with off-topic remarks.


I have it on video. PM me your email and I can send it to you.


I know you are one of the "zombie players" that I dread on any golf course.
Not to worry, plenty of real estate out there.


Keep it civil please, John.


Cheers.

In all civility I ask anyone to recreate a pre-shot routine of 18 seconds that includes a practice swing and call it quick. Just look at your watch and imagine someone already on the tee, thus knowing his club and yardage, and count along for 18 seconds. It is literally an eternity.



The base starting point is when a player steps onto the tee box and....


1. Finds a spot to put in a tee - left side, right side, level spot, behind tee markers
2. Inserts tee into ground
3. Puts ball on tee at right height
4. Checks line down the fairway
5. Stands behind ball
6. Perhaps a practice swing
7. Waggle and rip


Me? 18  seconds documented on video.


That is case in point why you are an obliviously slow "human rain delay" of a golfer, John.
You simply lack the cognizance to even understand the process of measuring pace of play, so how would you ever be expected to play at a  faster pace. The answer we know is: you simply do not care. That's fine as our paths will not cross on a golf course.


Here is some data just so you can refernce something other than your own futility:


http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/clock-slow-play-study-pits-joes-vs-pros


DRILLING DOWN
Other facts and figures from our PGA Tour study*:
Most time per shot (avg.): Nick O'Hern (55 seconds)
Least time per shot (avg.): Rickie Fowler (16 seconds)
Avg. time per tee shot for the field: 31 seconds
Avg. time per putt for the field: 37 seconds
Most time over a single tee shot: Hunter Haas (119 seconds, par-3 second hole)
Most time over a single putt: Kevin Na (91 seconds, 9'11" inch birdie putt on par-5 12th hole; he missed)
Tiger Woods's avg. time per tee shot: 38 seconds
Tiger Woods's avg. time per putt: 39 seconds
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 04:51:17 PM by Ian Mackenzie »

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #68 on: April 05, 2016, 05:35:23 PM »
How long your preshot routine is probably isn't as important as whether you ever do part of it while someone else is playing a shot. I think that's one reason that cartball slows people down, because for some reason many cart riders think it is illegal to walk more than 10 feet to their ball, or to remain standing for any longer than it takes to play a shot. They'll sit in their cart waiting on the group ahead, then when they are clear only then will one of them get out to figure out how far he his, grab a club and play his shot, while the other guy remains seated. Then they'll drive 15 yards to the other guy's ball, and he'll do the same.

If instead the guy who was first to play had already decided on his club, and once he saw the group ahead pick up the flag he grabbed a club so he was in position ready to go when he decides the way is clear he'd save some time. Meanwhile his partner could get his lazy ass out of the cart and size up his shot and grab his club at the very least. If he isn't in the playing line or eyeline of his partner, he could be ready behind his ball so that he could begin his preshot routine the moment his partner hits (or maybe wait a couple seconds if he thinks his partner might hit it somewhere it could be lost)

When I play I generally walk, and I'll be ready at my ball while others are hitting unless I'm in their way. If I'm far enough away I'll start my preshot routine before the other guy has even hit, so there's a good chance I'll get my shot off before his stops rolling. Even if I had a 30 second preshot routine, that overlap would mean it would only delay our progress when we're teeing off, but often not make any difference for approach shots.

I really think it is mostly about mindset. Some people might find the way I play annoying, because they want to be the center of attention when they are playing a shot, so everyone in the group can see where their shot went and cheer them on if they get a good result or commiserate with them if they get a bad break. If I'm focusing on my own shot while they are playing instead of focusing on them, or worse starting the process of playing my shot before they hit theirs, they might feel like I'm not being enough of a 'team player' that's part of the group. But what I describe is pretty common in my experience when I've played in Scotland/Ireland with locals. In the US the situation with the cartballers who don't even begin thinking about their shot until it is their turn and they drive or are driven right next to their ball seems to be the norm, and even with "walk up and hit it" preshot routines that's not going to be a fast way to play.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2016, 05:35:32 PM »
Ian,


I have been acting out your routine in my office. Thanks. My conclusion is that you do not have an 18 second routine, you have a routine that takes a minimum of 18 seconds.


Came all the way out from under your bridge for that?
Weak sauce for sure, especially as you are trying to broaden your editorial with off-topic remarks.


I have it on video. PM me your email and I can send it to you.


I know you are one of the "zombie players" that I dread on any golf course.
Not to worry, plenty of real estate out there.


Keep it civil please, John.


Cheers.

In all civility I ask anyone to recreate a pre-shot routine of 18 seconds that includes a practice swing and call it quick. Just look at your watch and imagine someone already on the tee, thus knowing his club and yardage, and count along for 18 seconds. It is literally an eternity.


I just clocked my pre shot routine from a video in practice and it was 15 seconds from start to take away with no practice swing.  And there was no wasted time.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2016, 05:45:37 PM »
Doug,

I think what you said early on is the key to this..

'They'll sit in their cart waiting on the group ahead,'

Its an institutional problem, but when your group isn't the one holding everyone back, there isn't much incentive to hurry up when its your turn. Rush everything, get to the ball and quickly hit all for what? So you can get to the next tee and wait some more. 

As has been said before, the solution is simple, even if difficult to enforce.  Find the group that's causing the slowdown, get their asses in gear, and have everyone keeping up behind them.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #71 on: April 05, 2016, 06:11:15 PM »
Look at the names I'm being called because I admit I'm a slow golfer. You will not solve your perceived problems until you see this as a two way street and work on both sides of the issue. Do any of you really believe that I'm the only slow golfer on this board? Before you answer, I know and have played with most of you.


One thing you guys don't understand is how to courteously play behind another group. You guys make everyone miserable including yourselves acting like spoiled children waiting to hit. I've never found myself behind a group so slow that I felt we should pass that I didn't go forward and ask the group permission to go. As a courteous follower this method works 100% of the time.


Like I said earlier on this thread, my group waited several minutes to tee off on a par 3 and only one of us hit the green. Before we even had a chance to chip a twosome ran on to the tee, hands on hips, walking in circles like the world was going to end. I waved them on and we cleared the green. Sure enough, practice swing, practice swing, miss short, miss left. It's just a more pleasant day waiting on them the next hole as they also played through the group that was holding us up.


The truth of the matter is that until you embrace and respect slow golfers they won't do a damn thing to help you out because they think you are just a jerk in a hurry.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2016, 06:22:54 PM »
JK,

I think that was a good post in general, even if I don't agree with all of it.

P.S.  When I lived in Spokane, my golf buddy for some reason often loved confrontation....(due to some misplaced frustrations as I surmise).  So we were playing one day and this group in front was being miserably slow, as opposed to just slow in general.   After 4 holes of this, he hits a chili pepper right up their backsides.  Yelling ensued, in both directions and my buddy was soon walking quickly after them to go settle things.  I thought it was going to end in blows, but amazingly a little restraint was shown.  But it was hands down the closest I had come to fisticuffs on the course...

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2016, 06:23:26 PM »
I don't think you're called names because of pace of play.

Doug Siebert

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Re: Quickening Pace of Play
« Reply #74 on: April 05, 2016, 06:41:11 PM »
Doug,

I think what you said early on is the key to this..

'They'll sit in their cart waiting on the group ahead,'

Its an institutional problem, but when your group isn't the one holding everyone back, there isn't much incentive to hurry up when its your turn. Rush everything, get to the ball and quickly hit all for what? So you can get to the next tee and wait some more. 

As has been said before, the solution is simple, even if difficult to enforce.  Find the group that's causing the slowdown, get their asses in gear, and have everyone keeping up behind them.


That was probably a poor choice of example. If there is no one ahead of them, you'll often see a foursome with two carts where one cart is playing and the others are just sitting there near one of the balls, even though there is nothing stopping that guy from figuring out his club and getting ready to play instead of not even getting up until it is his turn. Sometimes you see a "one shot at a time' mentality where the two carts travel together from ball to ball, so they end up zigzagging all over the place because they feel a need to see each other's every shot up close!

I don't mean to tar everyone who rides with this brush, and obviously walkers can be slow too. It is just annoying that riders will often think they play faster than walkers because they can zip between shots at a much higher speed, but the way many follow each other around you'd think the carts were chained together.
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