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Stuart Hallett

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How much should an architect know about greenkeeping ?
« on: March 30, 2016, 12:03:54 PM »
Got me thinking. How much do architects really know about greenkeeping ?


Is it important to have knowledge of greenkeeping, especially if there is a good super on the project ?
Is a GCA responsible for the scale of "luxury" maintenance, i.e. strimming and other manual tasks which are time consuming ?
To what extent should the GCA take into account maintenance budgets, or is it up to the super to find solutions once it's built ?


The list of questions must be long, any other ideas ?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How much should an architect know about greenkeeping ?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2016, 12:14:56 PM »
There is no way I could manage the maintenance of one of my own courses.  I know just enough to be dangerous.


I think I know the things an architect SHOULD know ... most importantly, what we can do to facilitate healthy turf via clearing, and avoiding compaction of soils.  I know when we're building a feature that's difficult to maintain, and have a good sense for when that difficulty becomes unreasonable.


Most of all, I know enough to help find excellent superintendents to maintain our courses!

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much should an architect know about greenkeeping ?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2016, 12:35:55 PM »
Hello Tom,
You answered 2 of my main concerns, firstly providing healthy turf conditions to start with by clearing. I would also add the movement of surface water as a priority.
And secondly, the awareness of a difficult feature roughed out in the dirt. I like the idea of identifying difficult features, and showing this to the super before any softening. That seems to be an honest approach rather than just keeping quiet because you like the feature.
Lastly, an excellent super is paramount, a godsend that helps us sleep better !


Thomas Dai

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Re: How much should an architect know about greenkeeping ?
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2016, 12:45:50 PM »
I would add knowledge of the rules of golf specifically as they relate to hazards and marking out of hazards.
Atb

Ian Andrew

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Re: How much should an architect know about greenkeeping ?
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2016, 06:55:29 PM »
I think I know the things an architect SHOULD know ... most importantly, what we can do to facilitate healthy turf via clearing, and avoiding compaction of soils.  I know when we're building a feature that's difficult to maintain, and have a good sense for when that difficulty becomes unreasonable.

Well put ... covered my two key points

I'll add - know how to build work that will last. Some of it is simple in material choices, but occasionally its in construction details too. I've seen and had to deal with lots of work that couldn't make it through a single decade of play and weather. Looking great is half the job.

You need to treat it like your going to have to maintain it after too.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 07:08:20 PM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: How much should an architect know about greenkeeping ?
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2016, 08:47:33 PM »
I just wish all architects knew what a pain in the ass bunkers are to maintain (in general).  So use them judiciously, size them appropriately, and place them effectively.  PLEASE!
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much should an architect know about greenkeeping ?
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2016, 07:13:48 AM »
I totally agree with Tom Bacsanl's point on bunkers. Less is more, so use them sparingly. You can give them slopes and flash them up, but for the love of God don't let runoff into them.

One of the most common architectural errors I have seen is a complete ignorance of the relationship between grass and trees. Do NOT tuck greens and tees up into little wooded nooks. It might look cute in one's imagination, but tree roots and shade absolutely forbid turf cover.

Please allow plenty of teeing space on par 3's, the shorter the hole then the more surface is required.

In the greens surrounds, allow for traffic, both pedestrian and equipment. Don't block or funnel access with a lot of tight bunkers, and never, ever with trees and shrubs.

In general shaping, pause to reflect on how maintenance vehicles - some quite large - will access everywhere. We need all-weather paths to move our equipment around.

Even if cart paths aren't in the original spec, allow for their eventual installation in the shaping.

It bears repeating that surface drainage is the most basic and critical aspect of any course construction.


The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How much should an architect know about greenkeeping ?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2016, 07:16:41 AM »
I spent a few years in college working on a golf course crew, and think it served me well over the years as general background.  Of course, things change and we always need to keep up.  I constantly ask supers about their programs, and on my projects, ask what five things kill them most in the ease of maintenance dept., in hopes of avoiding that mistake again.


While aware of new regulations, chemicals and practices, I certainly am not an expert in greens keeping, and our main focus is how design may make maintenance harder or impossible.  Sometimes that means knowing your sun angles (in all seasons....up in Northern MN, it seems you have to clear all the way to Lake Superior to let the morning sun in!  Or, route holes where the morning sun naturally comes in, at least to the range, and holes 1-3 and 10-12, if possible.


Soil compaction usually occurs from cart traffic, sometimes in combo with over or under irrigation, so it must be considered in path layout.  Or, eliminating those compacted strips on corners, usually by knowing the turning radius of a cart at full speed (usually about 55 feet)


Back in my Killian & Nugent days, they used to keep the lobes of bunkers at 20 feet to accommodate sand pros, and I usually followed suit.  One day, it occurred that power sand rakes have updated, and I measured the turning radius, which allowed me to reduce bunker lobe size to 16 feet on courses where it was imperative to match such things for maintenance ease. 


Later, it occurred to me that with bunker liners, sand could be even narrower, since it would likely be hand raked, and started thinking about the most efficient way to get capes mowed, etc.


Sometimes, chemical changes affect design, or turf choices, which affect design.  Will that new poa suppressant really allow us to use bent grass here, etc.?


There are a million little examples like that, of how maintenance affects design. (well, maybe a thousand.....) and an experienced architect should be aware of most of them, even if the business plan says a better design to attract customers may allow you to ignore many of them. 


The funny thing is, over time, even at $100 golf courses, I usually see hard to maintain features changed to something more manageable anyway.  Sometimes you have that difficult choice of designing something really, really cool (for ten years) or something that will last a lot longer at the possible cost of the nearly ultimate wow factor.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much should an architect know about greenkeeping ?
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2016, 09:16:11 AM »
    Thanks for the comments. It seems that some GCAs do care about Superintendants.
I guessed that bunkers would be high up the list. Having worked on both sides of the fence, this is always a tricky subject. There is no escaping that bunkers need high maintenance to look good, even the rugged look. GCAs and shapers like having fun with bunkers while a Super will give a few hard stares and raise questions, much more than for green slopes or general shaping.
I believe in the artistry of bunkers and defining how close machines should get to bunker edges, or how far up slopes for the bunker bikes (yes that happens all the time). A balance must be found to avoid damage and to limit handwork imposed on the greenkeepers. 
I find that greenkeepers often consider maintaining bunkers as a punishment. Rather than sending one poor trainee guy to rake X number of bunkers, rather share the workload and take some pride in making them look good, occasionally checking sand depth, weeding, picking up stones and raking. Not enough staff ?  Then I prefer to talk about reducing the total surface of sand.
On my travels, I see expansive rough cutting in areas totally out of play, multiple cutting heights because that’s what you see on TV, flowerbeds scattered here and there (help !), too much course furniture, and, too many scruffy bunkers. Before someone asks, yes, I have maintained lots of bunkers in my time.
Knowing the wealth of experience of both GCAs and Superintendants, I feel that both sides could objectively contribute to a simple guideline of good practice. A way of breaking down some preconceived ideas. 
 

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much should an architect know about greenkeeping ?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2016, 09:24:50 AM »
   
On my travels, I see expansive rough cutting in areas totally out of play, multiple cutting heights because that’s what you see on TV, flowerbeds scattered here and there (help !), too much course furniture, and, too many scruffy bunkers. Before someone asks, yes, I have maintained lots of bunkers in my time.



What is too much course furniture? I thought we were being encouraged to walk but anymore I can't find a bench anywhere.

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much should an architect know about greenkeeping ?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2016, 09:31:09 AM »
John,
Join an old club, you can sit on one of the "in memory of" benches  :) 

Angela Moser

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Re: How much should an architect know about greenkeeping ?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2016, 10:18:35 AM »
Stuart:


You asked a really good question and we heard pretty good answers.


My question goes a little further: Is anyone out there thinking about how the greenkeepers get around and finish their mowing route in the mornings without disturbing the golfers? I mean... it all depends where what is and how the course is routed and very individual, but is anybody thinking about that when you do the routing?


Cheers,
Angela


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much should an architect know about greenkeeping ?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2016, 10:54:37 AM »
Angela,

Usually only by putting the maintenance area as close to 1 and 10 greens as possible.

On a few occasions, I have gone with bunkerless holes simply because 1) I like one or two per course, and 2) in so doing, it would allow the bunker rake to omit a loop and speed up.  Granted, this comes from my days of riding bunker rakes back in college, and trying to get back to the shop and beat a storm.....I clearly recall a turtle beating me back one day.......

So, I know how important shortening routes is to bunker rakes.  As to greens and tees, you usually end up with short cuts (usually found first as construction roads) and can anticipate them, but I have rarely if ever moved a green JUST so a shorter mowing route can be found.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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