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Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #850 on: March 18, 2019, 01:13:52 PM »
Niall,


As you suggested, I perused the Dumbarnie website and the pics of the course under construction are very attractive (and very different than the one posted by Tim).  I do note that the course is targeting the "high end" market in an area already crowded in that segment.  I hope it does well, but unless they have a "coupon day", I am a doubtful customer.


As to your comments on Coul Links, I accept your word.  And you are right in your response to Jon about the environmental assessments, they are mostly opinions (and values) based on some measurable facts, interpretation of difficult to replicate data, and more opinions.


An example (of opinions based mostly on sketchy, incomplete data and more opinions) is the testimony of the lady representing the Nay group around 2:23 in the video, speaking mostly of the impact on birds.  She is attempting to refute, I think, the professed mitigation that the CL course would have on the "fear landscape" vis-a-vis past and present shooting (hunting) on the site.  She is a bit halting and confusing in her testimony, but I think that she is arguing that though shooting would not be permitted on the site if the course is built, the so-called "fear landscape" is not mitigated because the poor birds could still be killed in other areas outside the property.


Now, as a hunter for years in the past and a frequent visitor to areas where hunting is a way of life, I can give first-person, qualified testimony that places where shooting is not permitted are precisely where wildlife often congregates.  This is true in the various protected parks in Africa and India as it is in my own fully-developed neighborhood where coyotes and bobcats are seen daily and are a menace to our small pets.


Note that the opponent of the project is not suggesting that shooting as a means to cull and keep in balance wildlife populations is desirable, an argument that could be reasonably entertained.  She apparently believes something quite contrary to the experience that many of us who've played golf widely can attest to, that rather than impede the well-being of desirable wildlife, even in dense urban environments, golf courses often offer safe-harbor for many species.


I think the whole issue does come down to values.  Does the site possess sufficient national interest to offset the will and interests of the local people?  In the context of both, the specific site and coastal Scotland in its entirety, is the value of the very small area that would be disturbed if the project goes forward eroded in excess of the potential benefit it would bring to the local stakeholders?  And if it is, from the standpoint of fair treatment, should the local stakeholders be compensated if approval by the national government is withheld?


As you know, I am convinced that most central planning is to be avoided at all costs.  But from the standpoint of Coul Links vs. Dumbarnie, I can easily argue from a collectivist/societal standpoint that the former should be green-lighted and the latter held to great scrutiny.  Really, who needs another high-priced course in an area that already has some 40 venues, a good economy and a stable if not growing population?  Surely the birds, NIMBYs and blowing sand in Fife deserve some consideration! ;)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 04:54:25 PM by Lou_Duran »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #851 on: March 18, 2019, 01:40:56 PM »
I find it perplexing that some folks believe planning should in essence be a matter for local opinion. Much of the point of conservation planning is precisely to take decision making out of the hands of the opinion of the day and recent trend makers.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Peter Pallotta

Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #852 on: March 18, 2019, 01:44:19 PM »
Live by the sword, die by the sword, no?
Some talk as if zoning plans & environmental assessments (and monetary & fiscal policies and agricultural/cultural subsidies etc) have come down to us from on high as fixed principles and absolute verities, as unchanging as the laws of gravity or the rules of mathematics, instead of being what they actually are -- as fickle as the weather, the most relative of all relativities in this transient & ever changing world, ie social constructs and public decision-making in a neo liberal democratic context.
In other words: the same forces and mechanisms and people and short-sighted political expediencies that brought you the SSSI designations (or tax cuts or soy bean supports) are now at work to dismiss or side-step or reinforce such designations (or policies or subsidies etc) with the same lack of careful thought and genuine good faith and studied expertise that engendered them in the first place.
So maybe there'll be a C&C golf course there and maybe not -- and it might all depend on what a couple of national Ministers had for breakfast this morning or who they last spoke to and want something from down the road.
From afar, that site looks to me like neither a pristine & untouched natural ecosystem nor a dramatic and feature-rich setting for anything close to a truly striking & exemplary example of golf course architecture.
For all its repetition, this thread itself will likely prove more interesting in the end than either the farmer's field or the resulting golf course.
Which is not to say that hordes of retail golfers won't flock to that resulting course and drop hundreds of dollars each there once the early previews identify it as an 8 or 9 on the Doak Scale.


« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 02:48:21 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #853 on: March 18, 2019, 01:54:55 PM »
I saw an interesting quote recently - “conservation is not always about preservation”.
Atb

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #854 on: March 18, 2019, 03:15:06 PM »
I saw an interesting quote recently - “conservation is not always about preservation”.
Atb


David- it would be interesting if you could expand on the quote, or at least what you find interesting about it.  Conservation as practiced ideally has less to do with preservation per se as with being deliberate and widely contemplative in replacing those things which have served us well over long periods of time.  I suspect that most conservatives value true progress and have no quarrels with creative destruction.


Sean- your perplexion appears to betray a belief that someone far removed and perhaps much more capable has a better idea of what is good for you and your family than you.  I am of the opinion that those closest to the source who suffer directly the consequence of their decisions are normally in a better position to make their own choices.  It was a major basis for the founding of our country (you are still the Yank, right?) and the primary condition of the 13 original states under which the Republic was formed.  Perhaps those who espouse building a wall on part of the southern border not to keep our population from leaving but for the purpose of controlling the millions pouring in are suggesting that the founding principles continue to serve the country well.


As to planning and environmental laws, of course they should be contested, often and regularly.  Things change; all laws should be periodically reviewed and defended.  In fact, I would support a new law that for a period of 10 years, to pass any law, four or five must be removed from the books.  The zoning and permitting process in many parts of the U.S.- at least those where housing is affordable and business development is feasible- allow specifically for those types of reviews, where allowances and exclusions from normal planning overlays are granted after proper review.


A good example is my former community whose master plan had a many miles-long corridor along a major highway zoned for high end commercial (mainly office, clean, high-tech/low human input mechanized manufacturing- e.g. computer chips, pharma products- and some specialized retail on one side).  Though very attractive from the city government's standpoint- ultra-high tax base, very low service requirements, these grandiose plans of very well-educated people had to be abandoned after several years, but not before several owners lost their land because it was essentially unsalable for those uses which had no support in the marketplace.  Our "betters" in far-away places have the luxury of not eating their own cooking while still being motivated by the same human nature of pursuing their own self-interest.  Closer to home, at least in areas where the local government bureaucracies aren't so deeply entrenched, politicians and staff have a more difficult time avoiding the conflict.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #855 on: March 18, 2019, 04:21:54 PM »
If you have some spare time listen to the evidence of the RSPB expert before Professor Bell, her evidence is at best shambolic and she quickly has zero credibility. She has to admit her paper is based on scientific papers and she hadn’t even visited the site until after she’d submitted her report.
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #856 on: March 18, 2019, 04:56:33 PM »
I saw an interesting quote recently - “conservation is not always about preservation”.
Atb


David- it would be interesting if you could expand on the quote, or at least what you find interesting about it.  Conservation as practiced ideally has less to do with preservation per se as with being deliberate and widely contemplative in replacing those things which have served us well over long periods of time.  I suspect that most conservatives value true progress and have no quarrels with creative destruction.


Sean- your perplexion appears to betray a belief that someone far removed and perhaps much more capable has a better idea of what is good for you and your family than you.  I am of the opinion that those closest to the source who suffer directly the consequence of their decisions are normally in a better position to make their own choices.  It was a major basis for the founding of our country (you are still the Yank, right?) and the primary condition of the 13 original states under which the Republic was formed.  Perhaps those who espouse building a wall on part of the southern border not to keep our population from leaving but for the purpose of controlling the millions pouring in are suggesting that the founding principles continue to serve the country well.


As to planning and environmental laws, of course they should be contested, often and regularly.  Things change; all laws should be periodically reviewed and defended.  In fact, I would support a new law that for a period of 10 years, to pass any law, four or five must be removed from the books.  The zoning and permitting process in many parts of the U.S.- at least those where housing is affordable and business development is feasible- allow specifically for those types of reviews, where allowances and exclusions from normal planning overlays are granted after proper review.


A good example is my former community whose master plan had a many miles-long corridor along a major highway zoned for high end commercial (mainly office, clean, high-tech/low human input mechanized manufacturing- e.g. computer chips, pharma products- and some specialized retail on one side).  Though very attractive from the city government's standpoint- ultra-high tax base, very low service requirements, these grandiose plans of very well-educated people had to be abandoned after several years, but not before several owners lost their land because it was essentially unsalable for those uses which had no support in the marketplace.  Our "betters" in far-away places have the luxury of not eating their own cooking while still being motivated by the same human nature of pursuing their own self-interest.  Closer to home, at least in areas where the local government bureaucracies aren't so deeply entrenched, politicians and staff have a more difficult time avoiding the conflict.


Sweet Lou


In planning  it is generally helpful to devise a framework to aid in making decisions rather than in an ad hoc popular opinion approach based on the opinions and trends of a single point in time. Hence, regulations, guidelines and principles are established and used as touchstones. Coming from a country which on the one hand was as progressive (national and state parks etc) as any on earth to the other which allowed endless urban sprawl I can fully appreciate the positive aspects of sound planning. Being a relatively small country, it is essential that the UK take the idea of conservation very seriously. I don't say this only because I treasure open space free of development, but also because my grand children may as well.

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 06:31:20 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #857 on: March 18, 2019, 06:30:25 PM »
Sean,


I was once a financial planner for a Fortune 50 company.  You are absolutely right that plans form the framework for decision making (I would say focus the attention of relevant activities in the direction of long term plans).  In addition, plans provide the basis for feedback mechanisms by which current performance can be measured and evaluated.


I was involved in strategic planning, a general, topside review of where and how the company would be heading, typically with a five-year time horizon, and updated on an annual basis.  In much greater detail, I coordinated the preparation of annual plans for sales, selling expense, and marketing.  These then became the basis for budgeting and performance analysis.

Perhaps an important reason why the private sector is much more productive and, yes, democratic, has to do with plans and guidelines being subject to scrutiny every day.  If the customer is not pulling product off the shelves, things better change, and the company can't be stubborn or fatalistic about it.

Though it has been many years, I can clearly remember very difficult decisions made because of changing market conditions rendering some of the planning assumptions obsolete.  A blind allegiance to a plan did not rule the day.  Do we spend $Millions on unneeded capacity when projected sales aren't materializing, or do we keep the powder dry?

Unlike the old Soviet Union, if size 12 boots aren't selling, you stop making them and do something else.  Or if you have 60+ million empty apartments, do you review your x-year plan and conserve resources?  Maybe not in a government-directed economy such as China's, or a highly regulated one in Scotland where the government has conniptions with deviating from its dated plans when asked to "allow" a small number of acres of private land out of 6,000+ miles of coastline to be lightly developed.

And by the way, I too have grandchildren for whom I have the highest hope for a long, happy, and healthy life.  If they lived near Embo, I would hope that they have the choice to remain with their children and not be forced to join the migration to the big cities in order to make a living.  It should take a much stronger case than shifting sands and the desires of a few birders to say no to the locals.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #858 on: March 18, 2019, 07:12:01 PM »
Sweet Lou


I am not sure "blind allegiance to a plan" is an accurate description for the situation at hand. I would characterize the situation as a strong presumption toward non development of sites with special designation. If a developer can prove their plan would be strong financial asset for the community while doing little or no harm to the site, then of course the proposal should be given due consideration under planning guidelines, not by some sort of popular opinion. I admit to being very skeptical of the notion of less than substantial harm, but thats from a personal PoV..


Having been intricately involved with the process of obtaining Conservation Area status for a rather large chunk of the village I live in, I can say the process was detailed and grueling... nothing like the whim of a notion passed with little or no thought...as some seem hint is the case with these sorts of land designations.


To be honest, I never thought the land in question was very special! To the untrained eye the land is much like any countless parcels of land. But in terms of preserving viewpoints which have existed for hundreds of years, the land is quite special in its own way... for many people connected with the village anyway. The upshot is that Conservation Area designation was good enough to thwart three attempts at housing development. Even though I am not overly excited by the land, the decisions for refusal were right and proper  Not so much because of the designation, but because there are much better options for development in the vicinity. The land designation is merely a tool for helping to come up with better solutions for very serious issues such as housing.


The bottom line is there simply isn't enough land in the UK to develop it without a strenuous planning system in place.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #860 on: March 19, 2019, 01:35:45 AM »
TMI FDB!
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #861 on: March 19, 2019, 04:51:48 AM »
TMI FDB!


This from the man who can even tyop FBD!
 ;D
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #862 on: March 19, 2019, 02:40:33 PM »
Population density is 65 persons per square kilometre for Scotland and ranges from 8 persons per square kilometre in Highland Council area to 3,298 persons per square kilometre in Glasgow City Council area.


Sean,


You make my point re: central planning.  CL is in an area that lacks population.  Not that the CL property is suitable for housing, but the area is crying for jobs and thus far I am unaware of other suitable industries beating the door down.  The density issues you allude to in some areas of the UK are irrelevant here.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #863 on: March 19, 2019, 11:42:02 PM »
Population density is 65 persons per square kilometre for Scotland and ranges from 8 persons per square kilometre in Highland Council area to 3,298 persons per square kilometre in Glasgow City Council area.

Sean,

You make my point re: central planning.  CL is in an area that lacks population.  Not that the CL property is suitable for housing, but the area is crying for jobs and thus far I am unaware of other suitable industries beating the door down.  The density issues you allude to in some areas of the UK are irrelevant here.

Sweet Lou

The UK is union and must therefore be treated as such in all matters.  Some land must be preserved and if not now, when?  As I said previously, I don't know enough about this application to have a strong opinion on it specifically.  However, I strongly believe in conservation and I am far from convinced that a golf course will achieve the necessary results regarding conservation.  IMO, the presumption must be strongly against development unless

1. There is overwhelming evidence that the land shouldn't have a special designation and is therefore stripped of this special treatment or

2. There is overwhelming evidence that the reason(s) for the designation will not be compromised by the proposed development or

3. Scotland becomes independent.

The UK necessarily needs tough planning regulation because it is among the most densely populated countries in Europe. With much of England given over to dense population (which provides a huge percentage of the tax revenue), it is imperative that remaining natural habitats are given due consideration for preservation. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #864 on: March 20, 2019, 08:36:06 AM »
Unlike the old Soviet Union, if size 12 boots aren't selling, you stop making them and do something else.  Or if you have 60+ million empty apartments, do you review your x-year plan and conserve resources?  Maybe not in a government-directed economy such as China's, or a highly regulated one in Scotland where the government has conniptions with deviating from its dated plans when asked to "allow" a small number of acres of private land out of 6,000+ miles of coastline to be lightly developed.

And by the way, I too have grandchildren for whom I have the highest hope for a long, happy, and healthy life.  If they lived near Embo, I would hope that they have the choice to remain with their children and not be forced to join the migration to the big cities in order to make a living.  It should take a much stronger case than shifting sands and the desires of a few birders to say no to the locals.

Forgive me Lou, I previously accused you of looking at Scotland as though it were the 51st state of the US when in fact you see us more as a Soviet satellite state  ;D

As for your second para, I think you've got it the wrong way round, it should take a very very strong economic case to justify trashing an environmentally sensitive site. I'm not sure how providing some seasonal work for a couple of dozen bag carriers does that.

As an aside, one of the points that the solicitor/QC for the Objectors was trying to make in his cross examination of Professor Bell (and to be honest he wasn't doing it very well) was how the supposed economic benefit, much of which will naturally enough flow to the developers, will benefit the community. For instance many of the direct jobs created will be low wage seasonal work and any indirect jobs (mainly tourism and hospitality industry) will be similar. Professor Bell's view was that we shouldn't be snobby or elitist about it as a job is a job. The QC's point however was that how does someone like that afford a mortgage of £130K ? If anything a high end golf course will just encourage more incomers, higher house prices and therefore actually add to the displacement effect. Just a thought.

Niall 

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #865 on: March 20, 2019, 11:45:46 AM »
Unlike the old Soviet Union, if size 12 boots aren't selling, you stop making them and do something else.  Or if you have 60+ million empty apartments, do you review your x-year plan and conserve resources?  Maybe not in a government-directed economy such as China's, or a highly regulated one in Scotland where the government has conniptions with deviating from its dated plans when asked to "allow" a small number of acres of private land out of 6,000+ miles of coastline to be lightly developed.

And by the way, I too have grandchildren for whom I have the highest hope for a long, happy, and healthy life.  If they lived near Embo, I would hope that they have the choice to remain with their children and not be forced to join the migration to the big cities in order to make a living.  It should take a much stronger case than shifting sands and the desires of a few birders to say no to the locals.

Forgive me Lou, I previously accused you of looking at Scotland as though it were the 51st state of the US when in fact you see us more as a Soviet satellite state  ;D

As for your second para, I think you've got it the wrong way round, it should take a very very strong economic case to justify trashing an environmentally sensitive site. I'm not sure how providing some seasonal work for a couple of dozen bag carriers does that.

As an aside, one of the points that the solicitor/QC for the Objectors was trying to make in his cross examination of Professor Bell (and to be honest he wasn't doing it very well) was how the supposed economic benefit, much of which will naturally enough flow to the developers, will benefit the community. For instance many of the direct jobs created will be low wage seasonal work and any indirect jobs (mainly tourism and hospitality industry) will be similar. Professor Bell's view was that we shouldn't be snobby or elitist about it as a job is a job. The QC's point however was that how does someone like that afford a mortgage of £130K ? If anything a high end golf course will just encourage more incomers, higher house prices and therefore actually add to the displacement effect. Just a thought.

Niall


Niall,


Come on, man...you are selectively "cutting and pasting" items to craft and fit your own narrative.
A less biased account of testimony would show that witnesses gave detailed accounts of salaries, staffing and (yes) mortgage status of the employees at Royal Dornoch to extrapolate the possible economic impact of Coul in the area on just the direct jobs planned.


In addition, total salary and employment stats WITH home mortgage data were also given for the two other properties in Dornoch developed by the team behind Coul - Links House and the four businesses at the newly renovated Carnegie Courthouse.


Rising home prices? So, now youre a Dornoch real estate speculator..?.. ;D

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #866 on: March 20, 2019, 11:49:52 AM »
Sean,

While the UK overall is fairly dense at #49 in the world (275 PP SQ/Km), Scotland only accounts for 65 PP SQ/Km, which nearly puts it in the bottom 1/3 of densely populated countries in the world at 37 Percentile. (England accounts for most of this 395 PP SQ/Km.)  Then when you factor in that most live in the southern part of Scotland, the northern part is certainly sparsely populated (8 PP SQ/Km) and is one of the least populated places on earth. (Bottom 10th Percentile)

I'm a fan of conservation too, but shouldn't it all come in context?

http://statisticstimes.com/demographics/countries-by-population-density.php

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #867 on: March 20, 2019, 01:20:40 PM »
Sean,

While the UK overall is fairly dense at #49 in the world (275 PP SQ/Km), Scotland only accounts for 65 PP SQ/Km, which nearly puts it in the bottom 1/3 of densely populated countries in the world at 37 Percentile. (England accounts for most of this 395 PP SQ/Km.)  Then when you factor in that most live in the southern part of Scotland, the northern part is certainly sparsely populated (8 PP SQ/Km) and is one of the least populated places on earth. (Bottom 10th Percentile)

I'm a fan of conservation too, but shouldn't it all come in context?

http://statisticstimes.com/demographics/countries-by-population-density.php

Kalen

That is one way to look at it and very valid way at that.  Another way is to think of huge percentage of England is given over to the overwhelmingly largest percentage of population of the UK which generates essential tax revenue... which then leaves very little opportunity for major conservation areas.  In a very real sense, just as Scotland relies on tax revenue from England, England relies on Scotland for open space.  That isn't to say there should be a blanket hands off development policy in Scotland, but imo protecting designated areas is very important as it is a very limited amenity.  As Niall states, it is difficult to grasp how a golf course will provide an impactful financial uplift as a trade-off for the possible sacrifice of a limited amenity.  Lets just say I am skeptical.   

Yes...I am anti-Brexit and pro-union :D

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 01:24:56 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #868 on: March 20, 2019, 02:17:40 PM »
Sean,

Your last post is also very valid, and I find myself agreeing in general principle.

The only bit of nuance I would add is being flexible enough to differentiate between:
- High populated areas that are actively under assault from encroachment and need a very strict hands-on approach
- vs areas that are not and would benefit from additional stimulus at a seemingly minimal cost.

Its a difficult balancing act, but I certainly appreciate the mindful effort and err'ing on the side of caution.

P.S. I'm also anti-Brexit and pro-union. ;)

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #869 on: March 20, 2019, 02:19:20 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_Country

Kalen

I've no idea whether the above link will work but if it does its worth a read. It will give you an indication why the north of Scotland is sparsely populated and it will also give you a clue as to why environmental legislation has been brought in in the last few decades.

Niall

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #870 on: March 20, 2019, 02:37:17 PM »
Niall,

Thanks for posting that, sounds like they made an excellent move to step-in and put an end to those activities.

A few things to note in relation to this project thou:
1) I can't recall the size of this project, but even at 200 acres, that's less than 1 Square KM, of which maybe 1/2 would be modified/maintained area?
2)  Is the proposed area peat land?  I'm guessing that would be difficult to work in, but I was under the impression it was mostly sand dunes?
3)  Probably safe to say C&C won't be planting any trees.  ;)

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #871 on: March 20, 2019, 03:42:48 PM »
Unlike the old Soviet Union, if size 12 boots aren't selling, you stop making them and do something else.  Or if you have 60+ million empty apartments, do you review your x-year plan and conserve resources?  Maybe not in a government-directed economy such as China's, or a highly regulated one in Scotland where the government has conniptions with deviating from its dated plans when asked to "allow" a small number of acres of private land out of 6,000+ miles of coastline to be lightly developed.

And by the way, I too have grandchildren for whom I have the highest hope for a long, happy, and healthy life.  If they lived near Embo, I would hope that they have the choice to remain with their children and not be forced to join the migration to the big cities in order to make a living.  It should take a much stronger case than shifting sands and the desires of a few birders to say no to the locals.

Forgive me Lou, I previously accused you of looking at Scotland as though it were the 51st state of the US when in fact you see us more as a Soviet satellite state  ;D

As for your second para, I think you've got it the wrong way round, it should take a very very strong economic case to justify trashing an environmentally sensitive site. I'm not sure how providing some seasonal work for a couple of dozen bag carriers does that.

As an aside, one of the points that the solicitor/QC for the Objectors was trying to make in his cross examination of Professor Bell (and to be honest he wasn't doing it very well) was how the supposed economic benefit, much of which will naturally enough flow to the developers, will benefit the community. For instance many of the direct jobs created will be low wage seasonal work and any indirect jobs (mainly tourism and hospitality industry) will be similar. Professor Bell's view was that we shouldn't be snobby or elitist about it as a job is a job. The QC's point however was that how does someone like that afford a mortgage of £130K ? If anything a high end golf course will just encourage more incomers, higher house prices and therefore actually add to the displacement effect. Just a thought.

Niall


Niall,


Come on, man...you are selectively "cutting and pasting" items to craft and fit your own narrative.
A less biased account of testimony would show that witnesses gave detailed accounts of salaries, staffing and (yes) mortgage status of the employees at Royal Dornoch to extrapolate the possible economic impact of Coul in the area on just the direct jobs planned.


In addition, total salary and employment stats WITH home mortgage data were also given for the two other properties in Dornoch developed by the team behind Coul - Links House and the four businesses at the newly renovated Carnegie Courthouse.


Rising home prices? So, now youre a Dornoch real estate speculator..?.. ;D

Ian

The only evidence video link I've watched is the one you pointed me towards which was Professor Bell and the very first bit by the RDG vice-Captain. Professor Bell also talked about other things such as agglomeration and displacement which was interesting, especially the bit where he said displacement shouldn't be taken into the calculation as areas like Fife, East Lothian and presumably Ayrshire although he didn't mention it, as these areas were better off for job opportunities anyway which is quite a novel argument when discussing the economic pro's and cons. Whether that's true in percentage terms I'm not sure but I can't imagine clubs like Prestwick St Nich's or Kilspindie or Leven would be too impressed !

With regards to salaries etc I can't recall him mentioning the other properties you refer to but its possible I fell asleep at that point however not sure what relevance they would have in relation to the golf development anyway ? What I do recall was his chat about salaries at RDGC. That was information he had been given by the club and was only general information as obviously they had to comply with GDPR as I'm sure you know. Presumably the point with him forwarding this information was that the wages would be broadly similar to the proposed Embo development. The figure given by Professor Bell was £20K which was the average annual wage at RDGC.

What the solicitor in his cross examination was saying was how does someone on that wage afford a mortgage ? 

Niall

ps. as it happens I'm a RICS Registered Valuer but in truth you don't need to be a valuation surveyor to appreciate that we have a rising population of retirees many of whom are cashing in on there family homes and moving out of the suburbs to places like Dornoch or are using equity to buy holiday homes in places like Dornoch. And as the professor was forced to admit, the population of east Sutherland has rose after 2000.

Rich Goodale

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #872 on: March 20, 2019, 04:11:49 PM »
Gentlemen


I think it's time to stop spinning our wheels and going onto another topic.  I'll be up at Dornoch for a long weekend starting Friday and will report back if I hear anything of inetrest.  IMHO the broader powers that be in Dornoch and the Scottish government are idiots if they think that Coul Links is anything other than tremendously positive for the area and its people.  It is not going to turn Dornoch into Pebble Beach, but it is going to revitalize (in a modest way) the local economy.


Rich


PS--maybe it has been mentioned before, but David Bell is a Dornoch lad, a fine golfer and one of the most well-respected Economists in Scotland.  Listen to what he says.


rfg
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

David_Tepper

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #873 on: March 20, 2019, 05:28:50 PM »
Does anyone have a rough idea of how long it will take "the powers that be" to make a decision and announce their ruling once this  hearing concludes?

Lou_Duran

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #874 on: March 20, 2019, 09:32:28 PM »
I don't know Rich, can you think of spinning your wheels on a better topic?

I for one would like to know the due diligence involved in designated the CL site as having SSSI importance.  Has anyone ever challenged the scientific assumptions?


Do put in a good word for me at RDGC.  I am still working on a summer schedule.

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