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Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« on: March 16, 2016, 01:45:35 AM »
In discussing course architecture with a friend over the weekend, the past practice of playing TOC in reverse came up. MacKenzie, with his love of the course, surely knew it was playable in reverse, and may even have played this sequence himself.


My questions stemming from this discussion -


1. Are we absolutely certain MAcKenzie knew TOC could be played clockwise?


2. Is there a possibility MacKenzie, or any other Golden Age architect designed a course which is reversible, and did not highlight the fact?


(Insert Jans National reference here and get it out of the way quickly)


MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2016, 04:53:40 PM »
Matthew:


It's a bad week to be speculating about what design ideas Dr. MacKenzie might have had.   ::)


To answer your first question, I can't believe he would not have known The Old Course could be played backwards, however, I do not recall it being mentioned specifically in any of his writings.  He evidently did not think it was of enough interest to illustrate it as part of his carefully drawn map of The Old Course.

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2016, 01:44:33 PM »
I wasn't sure if the timing was right to share this news, but what the heck.  I have recently come into possession of a map, apparently drawn by Tom Bendelow on the pages of a publication of his day that would seem to indicate that the course now affectionately known as Jans National was originally intended to be played in both directions.  Note directional arrows, as well as TB's signature.






I have also obtained correspondence from Bendelow to Peter Jans in which he expresses his hope that players "of sufficiently high levels of courage and/or medication come to test their skills on the reversible links."  The letter is signed, "Your Dawg, T-Bendy".


Efforts to authenticate are currently underway...




Too soon?


Blame MM.  He kind of asked for it.
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2016, 01:49:50 PM »
Jason, phenomenal find.


It also appears Maui Jim was there to attest this original drawing: big if true.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2016, 03:53:29 PM »
El Boqueron or similar spelling.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2016, 05:40:59 PM »
I have put up several posts about the William Flynn designed Pocantico Hills - private estate course at the Rockefeller estate in Tarrytown, NY north of NYC.  It was fun to play this reversible course about14 years ago. 

From what I am told, it is not currently being fully maintained, perhaps just the grass is being cut.

A club must have VERY few members to pull this off - truly PRIVATE.  Must be a challenge in green design that's for sure.

I don't think Wm Flynn ever highlighted this design publicly, but I don't know for sure.   Have to re-read the course discussion in Wayne Morrison & Tom Paul's "Nature Faker".

See comments below from recent post.

Bill

Pontanico Hills in NY for John D Rockefeller was done by Flynn, and still exists.
Spelled Pocantico Hills on Kykuit - the Rockefeller Estate in Tarrytown, this estate course was designed by William Flynn as a reversible golf course intended to be played back in the direction from whence you came. The tenth tee took you back to the 8th green etc. The 18th hole was par a 3 that did not play to the 1st tee.  Logically, you need very little play for this to work.  I was fortunate to play the course about 15 years ago with a former colleague who is a member of the family. 

I posted few comments about it when the idea for the "Loop" started to circulate. Very interesting write up about it in Wayne Morrison's "The Nature Faker". 

Bill Crane     


« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 05:43:01 PM by Bill Crane »
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2016, 07:23:58 PM »
MM, great timing! I am in possession of an original plan for the Reverse Old Course prepared by Dr Mackenzie, which will go on sale at Green Jacket Auctions this week.

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2016, 09:05:46 PM »
Westchester CC (West) was designed by Travis to be reversible

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2016, 11:26:00 PM »
Cypress Point is a far better golf course when played backwards.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2016, 11:41:50 PM »
Has the Maui Jim drawing been authenticated? I've been waiting for days to hear!

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2016, 01:35:17 PM »
Westchester CC (West) was designed by Travis to be reversible

Very interesting connection here - as Wm Flynn's construction firm Toomey and Flynn built the two full length courses to Walter Travis' design with the courses opening in May 1922.   There is a good In My Opinion piece here: 
http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/michael-b-prystowsky-evolution-of-the-westchester-country-club-golf-courses/

Flynn later designed the Pocantico Hills course on the Rockefeller Estate opening in 1937. Would be interesting to confirm if Wm Flynn identified this concept from his companies role in  building the W Travis designed WCC West course.  Looks like I will need to load up Morrison and Paul's NATURE FAKER again and check this concept.

The ODGs from the Golden Age all influenced each other.

I am looking forward to playing the W C C - West in two weeks!

Bill
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2016, 01:46:47 PM »
Walter Travis tried to work with George Crump to make Pine Valley reversible back in the teens.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2016, 01:59:11 PM »
Would the use of an occasional alternative tee - to avoid potentially dangerous crossing-holes - be okay or to be classified as truly reversible must all the 'normal' tees be used?


Atb

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2016, 02:11:03 PM »
The reversible West Course at Westchester is seen on this Travis drawing that today is on the dining room placemats. 

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ed Homsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2016, 03:24:08 PM »
In a 1915 "The American Golfer" article, titled "Pine Valley", Travis declares that "Mr. George Crump, more particularly, aided by other Philadelphia enthusiasts, has carved out a links which is just as sure as anything to be one of the best--if not the very best--that this country may justly be proud of."  He goes on to state,  "an unparalleled forward step has been taken by the projectors in arranging to make this the first course in the country capable of being played two ways---the regular way and in reverse order....To the writer was entrusted the privilege of working this problem out, and a most fascinating one it was.  It cost many sleepless nights, so absorbing was it in its many remifications, but with the able assistance of Mr. Crump, a comprehensivwe plan was finally evolved--of which more at some other time." Accompanying that article were drawings of the first and 16th Pine Valley holes "as now played" and a statement that diagrams of the holes "whereby they will be played reversely" will appear the following month.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2016, 03:51:37 PM »
Would the use of an occasional alternative tee - to avoid potentially dangerous crossing-holes - be okay or to be classified as truly reversible must all the 'normal' tees be used?


Alternate tees are almost essential and help provide variety.  Letting go of that really helped with our new course at Forest Dunes.  The essential part of reversible is to play all the greens in reverse order.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2016, 05:33:00 PM »
Ed:


Do you have any information on when Travis had thoughts of making East Potomac reversible?


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ed Homsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2016, 09:56:11 PM »
Sven--I do recall that Travis considered, or did, a reversible course at East Potomac Park.  I am checking our file.

Ed Homsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2016, 10:11:26 PM »
In an August 28, 1919 Brooklyn Daily Eagle, it is reported, after a mention of Crump asking Travis to prepare a reversible plan for Pine Valley that "....when the War Department undertook to put in a golf course at East Potomac Park, Washington, D.C., Mr. Travis's suggestion of a reversible course was endorsed by Col. W. W. Haris, but the war arrested it's completion.  Nine holes, however, are finished and the results justified the most sanguine expectations....".

That does not pinpoint when Travis first considered the concept, but helps confirm that the reversibility of the course was a consideration by Travis.

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2016, 11:41:12 PM »


Here is a Bridgeport Times and Evening Farmer article from February 5, 1918.  The article quotes Travis on the concept of reversible courses.  It includes Crump and Pine Valley as well.  The article starts in the third column titled 'Scotland Gave World Many Golfers'.  The Travis quote is in the 4th column.


http://tinyurl.com/h4w3hr9






MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Old Course, MacKenzie & Reversible Courses
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2016, 09:40:32 AM »
Bret.

That's a fascinating article, coming just a few days after Crump's death.   I wonder who the writer was?   If you don't mind, I've copied it here for easier viewing, thanks!

**EDIT**  Did I mention how frustrating posting pics is in this new format?   Ugh.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne