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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2016, 11:44:32 AM »
Some of you are making out like a Tillie or Mac sketch real or fake is the equivalent to a Monet, Rembrandt or Michelangelo.  They are not.  They are just a step in the process that were reviewed, modified and probably discarded at some point.


Yes, that's a big part of what I was trying to say above.  But some people just drool over anything connected to the famous designers of yesteryear, apparently even if there is doubt about its authenticity.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2016, 02:39:42 PM »
I can't judge the veracity, authenticity of the documents. I think a lot is being made of a little in any case, regardless if they are real. Designers go through lots of iterations. My garage is filled with routing plan and hole sketches for golf courses that were altered in the field, unbuilt or subsequently revised. I suspect the mice will get to them before I do again.

But more importantly given recent history, in my mind the whole matter gets an automatic DQ and I would never have allowed it in for serious discussion without at least on Links' part an airing of the previous controversy. To ignore it is simply bad editorial judgment. Readers need to know the backstory. As for Mr. Young's extended, revisited ad nausea apologia, my experience is that absent a simple statement of what happened and why - and knowing what we now know anyway - this revisiting of a controversy in the form of suddenly rediscovered documents is just another attempt at perpetuating - at best - publicity. I won't say what it is at worst. IST and PY tried to loop me into validating the Tillinghast stuff last time - or at least tried to get me to fawn over it and write it up as an exclusive, and I resisted. Once is quite enough.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2016, 03:28:12 PM »
Who's being played here? I've never clicked on the Links page before. All traffic is good traffic.

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2016, 05:16:01 PM »
I was asked to be involved in analysing a donation of Stanley Thompson drawings to my University.
It was essentially just for tax reasons - the collection was received as a gift.

I worked with someone else who had already authenticated the collection and as in the process of assigning a value.
I was simply there for context on what they were and their historical significance.

There were a couple of original sketches done to be traced, cleaned up and sent out to the client.
Copies of those were enclosed too.

I was surprised at the value of "some" of the drawings.
Much more than I would pay myself.

There is value in real drawings, both historically and financially.
In the end, I wish they would end up with the USGAR&A/RCGA ... that's what I would do (have done)
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2016, 05:36:00 PM »
Every year at Xmas break, I spend some time paring down my collection of old design drawings.  The purpose of the thinning is/was to reduce the cost of storage space (finally got them down to where they fit in my attic) and after I moved them home, the purpose was to keep the fire hazard down.....and still maintain any drawing that might show someone what was actually decided upon at the plan stage.

As I go through them, I pare out alternate sketches first.  Most were on dried out yellow buff paper that seems more prone to being kindle for the fire. 

If these things have value,  I think I pissed away a large chunk of my retirement fund!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2016, 05:37:02 PM »

it makes me wonder why anyone CARES about a bunch of old drawings, knowing that there is no way to know for certain whether they are real. 

Tom,

I for one couldn't really care less about the provenance of the Tillinghurst sketches, or even the MacKenzie drawings.

For me this was only ever about the presence of the purported signatures of MacKenzie and Morris on the Road Hole drawing.

For MacKenzie to have been dining with Old Tom Morris as friends in 1901 went against everything we previously knew about MacKenzie's early interest in golf and golf architecture. Never in any of his subsequent writings did MacKenzie ever mention having known OTM, this despite devoting much of a chapter to the man in "The Spirit of St Andrews". Everything I've learned about MacKenzie's character in recent years would suggest that if he had really been a friend of Morris he would have wanted to let the world know about it.

It is not the sketch per se that is important; it is the message that MacKenzie and Morris were acquainted, thus altering history.

As MacKenzie's biographer, you know as much if not more about MacKenzie than anyone. Do you find it credible that he and Tom Morris were dining together as friends in 1901? Or that Mackenzie had even visited St Andrews as early as 1901?

On the drawing itself, I am agnostic. There is the possibility that the drawing is genuine, but that the signatures of Morris and/or MacKenzie are not.

I cannot shake off the nagging gut feeling I have had from the start that David Scott-Taylor was a fantasist who built up his faint early connections with subsequently famous golf architects by embellishing material in his possession and concocting diaries in the interests of self-aggrandisement. His real life does not appear to have been a great success.

Of course, I'm probably wrong and the whole thing is a fraud by his grandson!
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 02:48:33 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2016, 10:37:27 PM »
Why is this thread and the various re-actions and the other re-actions to the re-actions such a big deal?
Some of you are making out like a Tillie or Mac sketch real or fake is the equivalent to a Monet, Rembrandt or Michelangelo.  They are not.  They are just a step in the process that were reviewed, modified and probably discarded at some point.


Carl, Why do you hold the art of Monet above those of Tilly? Seems that these sketches are to be sold for 6 figures. Should they not be scrutinized the same way?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2016, 06:46:09 AM »
Why is this thread and the various re-actions and the other re-actions to the re-actions such a big deal?
Some of you are making out like a Tillie or Mac sketch real or fake is the equivalent to a Monet, Rembrandt or Michelangelo.  They are not.  They are just a step in the process that were reviewed, modified and probably discarded at some point.


Carl, Why do you hold the art of Monet above those of Tilly? Seems that these sketches are to be sold for 6 figures. Should they not be scrutinized the same way?

The art of Tilly is not on some piece of paper....that's what I don't get about any of this stuff....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2016, 07:00:50 PM »
I don't know anything about this auction house and their reputation. I do personally know auction houses, who will even refuse authentic items if there is just a shadow of a doubt. And there are others.

What might happen is that the sketches are sold with qualifications such as "includes expertise by Dr. X" and "deemed to be authentic by Prof. Y", but they will NOT be sold as "sketches by Alister MacKenzie". The wording is extremely delicate here and I may not be sufficiently familiar with the English terms, but you can definitely make it sound like "the real thing" to the layman, while legally not committing yourself.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2016, 07:12:24 PM »
 
I will be more than happy to answer respectful questions.
A number of posters have asked "respectful questions," but Phil has not answered.  Maybe he is waiting for someone to answer his question first . .  .

Quote
I would ask then, why you would believe that your non-expert opinion should be accepted over that of many true experts in their fields? That question is not meant derogatorily, but rather as a reasonable one
Here are some of the reasons:

1.    With the exception of the auction house which will profit from the sale, Phil has not identified a single authentication expert nor has he come forward with a single authentication report, excluding Ian's phony report. We have no idea of level of qualification of the experts or the scope of the supposed "authentications."

It is just like the last four times Phil has come to these pages to try to convince us to that this stuff is real. Phil wants us to just take his word for it.  Last time Phil asked us to take his word for it, he was singing the praises of Ian’s ham-handed fake authentication report, and insisting that it answered all of our questions and allayed all of our concerns.  Incredibly, Phil hadn’t bothered to check its dubious authenticity out himself. 

2.   We have no idea what if anything Phil has told these unnamed experts about the serious concerns raised by all these documents. Phil claims to have told them everything, but the Links Article suggests that this probably isn't the case. 
   
For example Phil told Links Magazine that this material was stored in a vault in a solicitors office for over 80 years, and that he had papers that prove this.  This creates the false impression that all of this material is at least 80 years old and that it was out of reach of those who might alter or forge material, especially David Scott-Taylor.  The claim is false, as Phil has admitted. The material was sometimes stored under Mum’s bed and thus easily accessible for Ian.

If Phil made this or similar false representations to the supposed experts, they may have provided their analysis based in part on this fiction.

3.   Phil has a history of misrepresenting and exaggerating the extent of his research and the basis for his findings.  For example when Phil first brought this story forward he repeatedly insisted the entire story came directly from the diaries. Then, when the story fell apart he admitted that he had never even seen the diary entries in question!  See his Hubris thread, which reads an awful lot like this latest thread:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59182.0.html

For a more recent example, Phil has repeatedly claimed that he has definitive proof that the Grand Hotel was commonly called the Scores Hotel in 1901.  Last week, he finally brought forward his supposed proof and again insisted that, "Just before and after the turn of the last century it was most definitely referred to as 'The Scores' locally."  A bit of quick research by Niall, above, indicated that he misunderstood and misapplied the source information, and that it did not establish what he claimed it did. So Phil still has not come forward with any factual information supporting his assertion that the Grand Hotel was commonly called the Scores Hotel in 1901. 

4.   Phil hasn’t done his due diligence regarding the supposed David Scott-Taylor diaries. Even though he has been at this for at least a couple of years now, he still has never even seen the diaries in person, and has not bothered to arrange for their authentication.

Phil mentioned that he has not done so because of poor health, and I sympathize.  Nonetheless, there is absolutely no acceptable excuse for Phil to try to publicly present this material as real until he has had the supposed diaries authenticated by respected experts. This is especially so given that Ian has already admitted to creating a false report to fraudulently induce the sale of material from this collection!
 
There is no pressing time constraint at work here. If his health prevents him from arranging for proper authentication, then the only responsible course would be to hold off on presenting the story until he has had a chance to exercise proper due diligence regarding this key component of the story and collection. Otherwise Phil is putting his faith in Ian Scott-Taylor, and asking others to do the same.

5.     Despite Phil’s claims that he just wants to get to the truth, he has repeatedly failed to research and address the many valid concerns which indicate that this material might be fake, and he has steadfastly refused to provide answers to even the simplest an most straight-forward questions about David Scott-Taylor’s biographical information. The answers to these questions would allow others (and Phil) to verify the story or refute the story. Yet Phil refuses to answer.

For example, Phil has insisted that he and Ian have diaries from virtually every day of David Scott-Taylor's adult life. Yet Phil will not provide even the simplest and most straight forward biographical information.  Among other things, Phil has refused identify:

  -  The name of David Scott-Taylor's first wife.

  -  The name of David Scott-Taylor's children from his first marriage.

  -  The location and address of David Scott-Taylor's residences during his adult life.

  -  The golf and rugby clubs to which he belonged and the dates of his memberships.

  -  His military ID number, or at least the places he was stationed and the ships on which he served.

If the David Scott-Taylor diaries are real, then all this information should be easy enough to provide, and much of it would be easily verifiable. Yet Phil refuses to provide any of it. He doesn’t seem to want to know.

If Phil is really interested in getting to the truth of this matter, then why is Phil unwilling to allow us to vet David Scott-Taylor’s biographical information?

6.   Virtually nothing from the David Scott-Taylor story/diaries has checked out thus far. To give just two related examples, David Scott-Taylor was not a Naval Officer or even a doctor in 1901, and he certainly was not in Queen Victoria's chambers caring for the Queen beside her deathbed.  These are details that were supposed to have come straight from the diaries, yet they are pure fiction.

7.  Phil’s story keeps changing.

8.  The Scores Hotel did not exist in 1901.

9.  The Scores Hotel letterhead did not exist in 1901.

10.  Tillinghast was not even in Scotland in May 1901.

11.  Phil has not explained what happened to the 'thank you' note supposedly written by Tillinghast on "Scores Hotel letterhead” on May 12, 1901.

12.  For these reasons (and many others) the supposed Tillinghast Road Hole drawing appears to be a blatant and careless forgery, as is the supposed note on Scores Hotel letterhead.

13. The Redan drawing appears to a perfect trace of a later hole plan, and contains features different than what existed in 1898.

14.  The drawing of Augusta’s 13th hole is inconsistent with MacKenzie drawings from the same time period, and appears to be based on an “as built” drawing from 1933. It contains property features (such as the property line) which were not on MacKenzie’s contemporaneous drawings and its orientation on the page matches that of the 1933 as-built drawing, not the early drawings.


15.  MacKenzie did not create individual hole drawings of the holes at ANGC.

16.  The supposed diary entries and letters contain phrases which were not in use at the time the documents were supposedly created.

17. The details shown on the early drawings are not period appropriate.

18.  Ian Scott-Taylor is a con artist who has already admitted to faking an authentication report, and is the only source for all this material.

That is just off the top of my head.  What did I miss? 

(I'd ask Phil to address this stuff, but he's already indicated that he will not answer my questions.  So much for his statements about how it is "extremely important that the truth about [the collection] be established once and for all time." You'd think that if it were so important to get to the truth, then Phil would be willing to consider and explore the questions and concerns raised by one his critics, especially given that my track records is pretty solid regarding this issue. Phil apparently doesn't mind trying to sell this stuff for an admitted con artist and liar, but he won't answer a few simple questions aimed at bringing out the whole truth. Go figure.)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 07:53:13 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2016, 08:04:43 PM »
Thank you David. Wonderful post.
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2016, 08:44:50 PM »
I can't be the only one who appreciates the irony of the title of this thread in light of the silence from its author.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 09:11:59 PM by Brian Hoover »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2016, 10:02:00 PM »
Great post, David.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2016, 11:57:20 PM »
Admittedly, I was sucked in and I glanced at these latest posts relating to this sordid affair against my better judgement.  My only question is why the heck do these sketch cats still get a posting privilege on GCA.com after such overt attempts to deceive our contributors?  While I appreciate David's diligent and painstaking detail of debunking the scam, I question why it is still even an issue to allow more opportunity for spreading B.S. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2016, 05:59:39 AM »
Because people beg to differ. This is a discussion forum and I would not want to forbid some opinions and allow others.


My question to Phil would be: if you do not profit from the sale, why do you work so hard arranging it?


Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2016, 11:38:47 AM »
Because people beg to differ. This is a discussion forum and I would not want to forbid some opinions and allow others.


My question to Phil would be: if you do not profit from the sale, why do you work so hard arranging it?


Ulrich

Ulrich, the only reason I can come up with would be Phil is trying to save face from the debacle of round 1 of this fisaco. I'm not implying that Phil is being malicious or dishonest.

I just think Phil waded into a puddle of shit and does not have the shoes for it.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2016, 11:43:15 AM »
For a long time I sat on the fence with this thing when going back and reading the threads processing it all....

But there seems to be little to zero doubt what has happened, which I have to agree that it shouldn't allowed to be continued. In light o that,  a similar version to the old quote is applicable...

"Fool us once, shame on you.....fool us again, shame on us!"


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2016, 12:08:52 PM »
Phil no longer owes this site a thing after all the name calling including being likened to a pedophile. It is an impossible situation for him as an individual in this environment. What I am missing is where is the wrath against Links magazine? They still have the article up on their site. Until they print a retraction a reasonable person should at least keep an open mind.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2016, 12:11:46 PM »
Phil no longer owes this site a thing after all the name calling including being likened to a pedophile. It is an impossible situation for him as an individual in this environment. What I am missing is where is the wrath against Links magazine? They still have the article up on their site. Until they print a retraction a reasonable person should at least keep an open mind.

John,

Nice attempt, but alas fruitless. Its simple really...he's an adult and made his bed, now he must sleep in it.

P.S.  How do you know no one has written/called/emailed Links Magazine?

BCowan

Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2016, 12:13:35 PM »
Phil no longer owes this site a thing after all the name calling including being likened to a pedophile. It is an impossible situation for him as an individual in this environment. What I am missing is where is the wrath against Links magazine? They still have the article up on their site. Until they print a retraction a reasonable person should at least keep an open mind.

Jkava, Thank you for being one of the few adults on here

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2016, 12:14:23 PM »
I'm sure the WCM has contacted Links which is why it raises the possibility that the story is accurate.

Gib_Papazian

Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2016, 04:18:03 PM »
Gentlemen,

Brother Neal and I had dinner with Phil a couple years ago when he was here doing the club history for SFGC. We took a close look at all sorts of drawings, maps and documentation - including what to me is the absolute Holy Grail: Pieces of the original Raynor plans for Cypress Point.

Now, we were both somewhat skeptical, but I've got to admit - even for as a guy who studied for years at the feet of the Great Bahto - the stuff appeared legitimate.

The story of the Barrister in Scotland or Wales or wherever seemed a bit fishy, but stranger things have happened and I took him on his word that everything had been authenticated.

On the face of it (before I queried Sean Tully), the findings were extremely exciting and I guess I really wanted to believe somebody had found the Raynor plans - if only to prove the routing was mostly Raynor, not MacKenzie.

However, in the end, the entire Barrister story exploded into a million pieces and an otherwise fine gentleman got duped by a criminal forger who ought to be keel-hauled.

Now, here is the rub: Just because he got one thing wrong, does not mean that Phil got everything wrong.

Putting aside his congenital liberalism and breathless perseverations about Domer football, Tommy N. and I don't disagree about much. However, I have to spank my blood brother here and throw a flag for unnecessary roughness.

Phil Young is not a piece of shit, he is not a criminal and he did not intentionally mislead everybody about this MacKenzie/Morris/whoever else was there meeting and drawings. The fact this otherwise kind, agreeable guy has been publicly disemboweled as if he sodomized an infant is absolutely over-the-fucking-top.

Further, even if every single bit of his research turned out to have been provided by a skilled forger, Phil clearly did not assert the veracity of these documents with malicious intent.

You know why kiddies? Because somebody intentionally trying to put one over on the golf establishment would keep his research as far away from this Discussion Group as possible.

Let's face it, not only is the average I.Q. on this board incredibly high, but the Treehouse bar is three deep with erudite golf historians on virtually every imaginable subject.

Do you think Phil Young (or anybody) would be stupid enough to intentionally allow THIS group of geniuses scrutinize a set of forgeries and incomplete research - knowing every micron would instantly be subjected to a high speed crash test?

My guess - and it is only a guess - is that Phil may be right. We might be incorrectly assuming just because one of his sources turned out to be a clever liar, that EVERYTHING he has set forth is patently false.

Did it ever occur to anybody the rest of his research from different sources might have some merit? Do we need to insult this man with such hateful vehemence?

How stupid are the naysayers going to feel if it turns out Phil Young stumbled across some real gems?       

All that said, my strong suggestion would be that Phil sits down with my friend David Normoyle and (if he's willing) let him tear into the findings and ascertain whether it is another wild goose chase. David is one of the sharpest cats I know and a bulletproof intellect in terms of verifiable research.

Maybe Phil is afraid to do it. Maybe he does not really want to know the truth - but if my name had been dragged in the sewer around here, I'd damn well seek out the top researchers to find out whether I was given (just) one catastrophic bum steer, or if the entire sum of my writing and research is a steaming pile of hallucinatory twaddle.   
       



   
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 11:00:19 AM by Gib Papazian »

JJShanley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2016, 06:20:27 PM »
This whole thing reminds me of a story that broke around a year ago that involved a graduate student in political science who had a apparently ground breaking article involuntarily retracted from a major journal when it turned out that he hadn't actually done the research he'd claimed he had carried out.

It cost him his career, although I Googled him recently and it looks like he's tried to start his own research company.

Nothing I've read suggesta I could take seriously either the character of owner of the alleged documents, or the judgement of the his friend.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2016, 06:45:21 PM »
Quote
How stupid are the naysayers going to feel if it turns out Phil Young stumbled across some real gems?
Well, it looks like the question is not going to get settled either way. If I understood the proceedings correctly, there are going to be a bunch of authentications and if they turn out good, the material is going to be sold privately to an undisclosed buyer. If they turn out not good, then the material goes back to the owner.

Either way, all we're going to get is a collection of opinions and the material will disappear for a long time.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Promise Kept...
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2016, 07:09:43 PM »
Phil no longer owes this site a thing after all the name calling including being likened to a pedophile. It is an impossible situation for him as an individual in this environment. What I am missing is where is the wrath against Links magazine? They still have the article up on their site. Until they print a retraction a reasonable person should at least keep an open mind.


It is always exciting to find out what side of a the argument you are going to troll!!!! Truth be told, I lost the office pool, but exciting nonetheless.

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