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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« on: February 16, 2016, 08:09:26 AM »
 ::)


Does the government negatively impact golf design ?  You would think they would embrace the open space and recreational values of golf in the neighborhood , yet ?




Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2016, 08:24:39 AM »
Of course. They interfere and impinge on everything.


Not sure your spin about open space and recreation for the neighbourhood is quite the case however. The neighbourhood are often fenced off to preserve things for a couple of hundred rich guys. Certainly in modern design.


Indeed in some quarters it is seen as taboo to even ask to come play and pay these neighbourly expanses of land.




archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2016, 09:17:29 AM »
 ;D


Ryan not all private courses are crazy exclusive . Plenty of early morning runners and late afternoon dog walkers at many golf courses that I know . Rather than 200 homes I'll take a golf course most everyday .

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2016, 09:31:53 AM »
Personally, I'm in favor of regulations that protect wetlands, streams, rivers, lakes, etc. If those regulations make an architect's job somewhat more difficult, then that's just fine.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2016, 09:40:33 AM »
I had enjoyed the somewhat muted architecture of Scottsdale, the buildings all play into the mountains, until my trip down into Phoenix. There it was, poles, nets and all, Topgolf set square on an unregulated Indian Reservation. America won the battle but lost the war as I doubt there is a modern recreational structure uglier than a Topgolf.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2016, 10:55:35 AM »

There's a certain course in NE Scotland where some might say government rules and restrictions were deliberatley waived. Some might even suggest its development and existance has negatively impacted future GCA.

Atb

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2016, 04:34:09 PM »

There's a certain course in NE Scotland where some might say government rules and restrictions were deliberatley waived. Some might even suggest its development and existance has negatively impacted future GCA.

Atb

+1 but at least you are free to walk across it whenever you feel like it as long as you keep off the greens and do not interfere with the few groups that are out on it ;D

Jon

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2016, 04:45:55 PM »
yes
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2016, 04:54:41 PM »
@Archie


What government are you talking about? Federal, state, local? The answer depends on the property in question. Is it on the California coast? Are there wetlands? Are there protected species of animals or trees? Is it on wasteland/brownfields? Is it in a floodplain? These are all problems that can be or have been overcome over the years in golf construction. Would you prefer no regulation at all?


We had to move a green from in the wetlands during construction  of Commonwealth to an area outside the wetlands but overall the course got built without too much interference from the Army Corps of Engineers as wetlands fall in their jurisdiction.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2016, 05:45:00 PM »
I don't think so

 ... there are more restrictions, but there are also more tools available to deal with complex issues. There's far greater ability to access remote places with ease. It's not better or worse for GCA's ... it's just different.

It's assumed older architects had no encumbrances ...

I know enough about the build at Cape Breton Highlands to know they could only use the one steam shovel and truck one day a week to ensure the maximum amount of people were employed in the build. It was largely a shovel and wheelbarrow job. That was a restriction. So was hiring everyone who had been expropriated from their farms. I know the budget was set, was too low and he had to change holes to deal with the limitations.

And that's just one job.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2016, 06:38:14 PM »
 ??? ???


I'm surprised almost everyone is comfortable walking lockstep with what our new masters allow. I guess we've become inured that the government , not us , really owns everything .

Say you own 300 acres of land , better yet , you've worked hard, got lucky and found a spot where you might actually do ok .  .Had a dream to build a course since you first carried a bag for the rich guy at the country club . Found a designer you think is a kindred spirit. Let's fire up the bulldozers and turn the shapers loose, right ?  Not so fast young man.


Do you have your well permits , hmnn , how many gallons? If your parking lot has more than 75 spaces , oops , gotta look at the Coastal Area Facilities Review guidelines .  How long is the road to,the clubhouse ,geez, if it's more than 1,000 feet , that's a trigger.  Disturbing more than 2500 yards of soil , uh oh ,did you get the soil conservation guys to visit and approve where you are putting it.  Building a lake for irrigation , just get one chance because it's regulated as a fresh water wetland after its done .....better not go change it without a permit , drone pictures of your site , you know . Don't work before 8 a.m , noise ordinances you know.  Dirt on the road , wow, that's really gonna get you in hot water. 


Is it they really think we're doing strip mining and not building a golf course , or just justifying s bunch of jobs
they need to create to consolidate the vote?

Forgot about 100 more restrictive covenants , gonna serve beer , gotta buy a license . By the way , in that this is a big job, how about you just pay an inspector for the township to,stay full time and watch what you are doing . Of course it's overtime so you have to pay him .

Better [size=78%]talk to the shade tree commission guys, I'm not sure you can take that tree down . It's in the fairway you say , can't you move the fairway ? Endangered species on your land, perhaps a tree frog , that's a real problem .  Hope no eagles have ever been seen there in the last twenty years or you are really screwed . [/size]





Just a start , but you get my point .  By the way , did you know that those guys operating the dozers aren't Union. That's a problem !   Building a clubhouse , now you really got some hoops to jump thru, better get to know,the building inspector .  ADA review coming . Etc etc etc




  God bless the guys who are crazy enough to build
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 08:01:49 PM by archie_struthers »

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2016, 07:00:40 PM »
do a case study on a particular project......
and,
not all sites are created equal.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2016, 07:58:40 PM »
Necessity is the mother of creativity....every road block is really an opportunity in disguise, and so forth.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2016, 08:49:28 PM »
 ??? ::)




Jeff , what in the world do you mean that roadblocks are opportunities?  Opportunities for what , to pay more fees , to slow down the job , to pay more bureaucrats off ?  To force you to hire the right engineer , who has the ear of the politicians  or the "right " attorney who greases the skids with campaign donations or freebies for the mayor etc etc.


When you have to hire not based on talent but on connections to get a job approved and finished its really a sin. I'm sure you meant something else but it's not like God closes a door and opens a window when it comes to permitting .


Jeff , sorry if I piled on but geez  oh man , you know how bad it is . It 's a nightmare getting approvals .

« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 06:45:13 AM by archie_struthers »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2016, 09:09:20 AM »
Archie,

Well, I have been involved in more than a few protracted permitting projects, and yes, they can be frustrating, and in cases, I know a few holes that may have been built that weren't.  Giants Ridge in MN is my best, but not only example.  That said, we managed one lake hole and 17 other nice ones, and for the most part, golfers don't know what hole didn't get built, so its okay.  Even the long cart rides weren't really forced by permitting there, but were forced by the long legal process it would have taken to acquire small bits of land from the US Forest Service.

Maybe I am trying to make lemonade out of lemons to keep my sanity, but I do believe its true.  I had to route the GR project about 40 times (Previous to that, I used numbers to distinguish prelim plans, but ran out and had to go to AA, BB, etc.)  Sounds crazy, but every time I relooked at the routing, while I had sacrificed some other good holes, I thought it was an opportunity to find some new ones I hadn't considered before, and overall, I think the routing came out better.

BTW, I don't think I was hired in that case for connections and ability to get permitting.  Those conditions came about later.  In recent memory, there are few times I can recall an archie getting hired solely on permit ability.  Maybe, Chambers Bay, where RTJ II touted his previous experience getting ocean front courses permitted and also had been working the commission for a long time, was it a factor in selection.

Not sure what exact permitting requirements you may be facing, but the general trend when some new permit requirement is added is to complain about it a few years, then incorporate it in design, knowing it will inflate contractors bid prices, then at some point, it becomes SOP and the costs come down for construction.

I agree that it means buying more land, which sometimes is required, and in others, it raises costs considerably on a site specific cases.  We estimated that the Marsh Marigold cost Giant's Ridge maybe $750,000 to avoid.  And the worst part was, the agency that made us protect its habitat also pulled one of the three known marsh marigolds on site out of the ground to show it off.  Apparently, that wasn't against the law, but endangering its habitat was......so yes, there are cases when opponents purposely use environmental laws, etc. to inflate cost, hopefully in their eyes, enough to stop the project.  It's really the site specific opposition, where they can bring up almost anything (most of it crazy) to slow you down, that add big bucks to construction cost.

That would be another thread, permit disaster stories, as would trying to calculate how much more we pay to play golf because of newer environmental restrictions.  I am sure it's some, but in the current state, extra cost is probably more than off set by low interest and fuel rates, which probably have always had a bigger impact on golf construction pricing than most (not all) general environmental restrictions. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2016, 09:28:23 AM »
 :D


40 times on a routing plan, seems pretty crazy to me.


How about an aide for the township engineer sitting in his car during construction, and having to pay for it .  By the way he was a retired politician and best buddy of the mayor, never inspected anything. Lol


I could go on and on , and have more stories about local contractors on construction jobs being abused by the system than you could ever believe. Thankfully not many read GCA or my next project would surely  be targeted .




It's the acquiescence by many that its ok , that its just the way it is that rankles me so much. Until we all shove back and say no more , that's enough we will waste time money and resources that could keep the price tag down .




Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2016, 09:37:09 AM »
Archie,

My first project as a field guy for Killian and Nugent was for the City of Chicago.  I think we may have the exact same guy getting his truck paid for!  Let's exchange names.  KN also had to buy Democratic Party fund raising tickets, etc.  I also recall not being able to get a load of sprigs off the dock in Indonesia.  Fortunately, all that took was $40 US Dollars to the right guy and we were off.  (My owner was reluctant to set a precedent, so I stepped in on behalf of those poor, drying out sprigs)

I wasn't thinking of those kinds of problems, as in unwritten govt regulations or customs, like paying off inspectors, since it wasn't the title of your thread!

As to 40 routings.....well, maybe there are smarter guys than me.  Of course, on other threads we are talking about change orders by contractors, and that demonstrates the value of scope of service change clauses for architects.  Obviously, no agreement can cover outlandish extra time, and yes, I got paid extra for most of those.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2016, 10:12:10 AM »
Archie,

I'm sympathetic to your plight, but I also don't know your circumstances and whether your justified in being angry.

I find the no go zones are now far better defined, we don't even try with certain land parcels because they've defined what they won't approve for golf. I do agree with the premise that they are places that golf should not go.

I find the time and energy to get approval is much longer than 25 years ago, but those same sites get approved. The biggest change for us is not the build, but the maintenance restrictions on water usage and chemical applications. The golf superintendents have it much harder than we do.

The only conundrum to me is tree removal bylaws for existing courses. It hampers the ability to create sustainable growing environments and seems counterintuitive for agencies looking to lower inputs at the same time.

With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2016, 11:13:16 AM »
For me this has always been an issue of balance...

On one hand, I don't think anyone wants a completely hands off approach.  No oversight, no regulations, no nothing.  There have been far too many cases of abuse and "I'm doing what I want, to hell with everyone else" mindset.

And clearly too much oversight, restrictions, and needing to get permission for every last detail is overkill.

Its all about finding a nice balance and a consensus, which is difficult due to varying opinions and backgrounds....

P.S.  I guess that's true for just about every issue beyond architecture...

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2016, 02:41:43 PM »
Archie is justified in being p*ssed, I'm absolutely certain of it, having walked the walk with him later in his process for his project in Egg Harbor.
 
My favorite is the many hundreds of thousands of dollars spend on saving a 5 gallon spackle bucket full of fingerling trout on another project I worked on.
 
 
That's why is this day and age, in a highly regulated environment, it can sometimes pay to acquire an existing run of the mill golf course (with zoning permits for the golf use, clubhouse, parking lot, liquer license, ponds constructed, irrigation wells permitted, etc.), blow the course up and redo the routing. If you avoid any enviromental constraints like wetlands with the new routing (or minimize the required new fills) you'd likely be done with your permitting, construction and grow-in before you'd ever break ground on a new course from scratch on an undeveloped site.
 
In today's regulatory environment, many of the picture postcard holes like #7-8 at Pebble, #12 @AGNC, etc would likely not be able to be constructed due to environmental permitting issues.
 
Just my $0.02

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have government rules and restrictions negatively impacted GCA
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2016, 10:40:37 PM »
 ;D

Thanks Bruce.  Your $.02 is worth 10 times as always .


My older friend told me that if Nicky Scarfo and the mob still ran AC  when we built our course , he would have sent a limo to make sure I got to work safe every day . The local politicians sent a hearse instead

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