[Jason Thurman]

Are there great holes that stop being great when the prevailing wind isn't blowing?


Have you ever seen a great hole that became noticeably worse when the prevailing wind was reversed, or absent altogether?


Are there courses whose greatness is dependent on, and not just enhanced by, their prevailing wind blowing in full force?

[Josh Tarble]

nope.  that's what makes them great.   

[Josh Tarble]

But seriously, great holes are great because they work equally as well in all different conditions. 

That being said, there are holes that become great with wind and average without, but truly great holes don't have to rely on weather.

[Joe Hancock]

Is part of the question "who are the holes great for?" I can't imagine the average golfer wanting much wind to influence how the think or play about a hole, yet there seems to be a lot of thought devoted to it. I think part of the answer is "how playable is a hole, even when the wind is blowing?".

Good question.

[RJ_Daley]

Are there courses whose greatness is dependent on, and not just enhanced by, their prevailing wind blowing in full force?

I would side with great holes have greatness regardless of if the prevailing wind, the opposite wind is blowing or not blowing at all.  But in my view, not at 'full force'.   Whilst GCAs take into account the prevailing wind, and the locale that 'may' produce severe or 'full force' wind, I think most archies would have to acknowledge that it gets silly at some force of wind, perhaps at sustained 30+.  Even with that, use of ground contour can still 'cope' with the extreme wind as both a feature to mitigate the extreme wind, or still add element of interest when in concert with a high wind.  I believe a great architect can utilise such.  But at some point, a great hole is just rendered survival and not particularly enjoyable, and basically nothing can elevate it to greatness because of 'full force' wind.

[Thomas Dai]

A nice aspect of playing links golf is playing when the wind is a nice strong one in the opposite to prevailing direction.


One of the reasons being that many links courses have bunkers and hazards in what may initially be thought of as almost random positions, but then the wind switches around and those bunkers 20-30 yds short of greens, which you wondered why under normal conditions were even there, suddenly come into play or you run a tee shot into a fairway bunker that has previously always been way out of your range.


Atb

[Ryan Coles]

Perranporth is unplayable in anything other than the usual wind.

Doral blue monster seemed unplayable in the wind a couple of years ago.

It's a cliche but it's said a great course is enhanced by wind.

It could be said that the truly greats only need a breeze or a subtle change in direction to completely alter the challenge.

[James Brown]

This is a good question for the modern age.  I definitely think some of the 500+ par fours out there are no longer reachable in an opposing wind.  17 at TOC was in this category on Sunday at the Open last year. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Is part of the question "who are the holes great for?" I can't imagine the average golfer wanting much wind to influence how the think or play about a hole [since the average golfer's playing of the hole is negatively -- and, compared to the low handicapper, disproportionately -- impacted by the wind]; yet there seems to be a lot of thought devoted to it. I think part of the answer is "how playable is a hole [for the average golfer], even when the wind [other than the prevailing one] is blowing?". Good question. [And the answer to every good gca question is, as we know, The Old Course].

[Joe Hancock]

PP,

You're my first pick for dodgeball. Welcome to my team!

[Nigel Islam]

PP,

You're my first pick for dodgeball. Welcome to my team!

Average Joe's?

[Joe Hancock]

PP,

You're my first pick for dodgeball. Welcome to my team!

Average Joe's?

 

Not in our minds....

[Joe Zucker]

This is an an interesting question,  I've been thinking about it for a day and haven't come to a solid conclusion.  I want to tentatively say yes because I can think of a few examples where holes don't play near as interesting without the wind.  The postage stamp for one, if the win is not blowing it's still a tough hole and right is dead.  But without the wind it is a relatively straight forward short iron. 


The challenge of the hole is hitting a lofted club to an exposed target knowing you can't let it float to the right at all.  The wind forces players to get creative and flight something down or hit a longer club.  Without the wind, this challenge is obviously gone.  Is it still a great hole without wind? In my mind, yes, but I don't think it is as memorable.


As I keep thinking about this and other posters comment, I'm sure I will see great holes that the wind has no bearing on to prove the counter point.  So I guess my answer is "it depends"

[Bill_McBride]

Links courses are fascinating.  A lot of times it's harder to get close to the hole downwind than into the wind. 

[Matt_Cohn]

7 at Pebble?

[Wade Whitehead]

This could be the case on a course whose design depends heavily on wind.

For those who have played it numerous times, could any of the holes at Seminole fit the bill?

WW

[James Brown]

Links courses are fascinating.  A lot of times it's harder to get close to the hole downwind than into the wind.

The more links golf I play, the more I think this is true. 

[Joe Lane]

Hi all,

The wrinkle I would add is the one Peter Pallota articulated in the other thread about the paradox of proportionality. That is that some holes not only play differently, but become nearly entirely different holes depending on wind direction. And on some courses, that directionality is magnified even more because of a doubling-back routing.


In that style, one hole will face in one direction, the other in the opposite fashion: thus, what is normally a short par 4 is suddenly a much longer one, maybe even with different hazards in play as someone suggested about the old links courses, while the following hole suddenly becomes a short par four from a long one, or even turns (effectively) from a par five to a short par four. The first and second holes at Streamsong Red are of that latter type. In general, in fact, I’d counsel going to Streamsong only on windy days—not that you’ll ever have to worry about that. 


Thanks to Peter for the assist in clarifying the point—although maybe I should say thanks to Peter for shoveling the puck in cleanly after I threw a garbage pass his way.

Joe

[Jason Thurman]

7 at Pebble?

What's the prevailing wind at Pebble? It was NW when I played it, but I don't know how normal that is.


I'm partly just wondering about the degree to which architects take a site's predominant winds into account. Are holes frequently designed with the prevailing wind in mind as a major factor on how they will play? Or do architects simply look for interesting holes regardless of wind direction, make them wide enough to be playable given the site's wind strength, and accept that the wind will do whatever it does on any given day?


A few recent threads have been full of non-architects pontificating about all the ways that architects account for wind direction when designing holes. I'm sure that many architects do think a lot about the prevailing wind for certain holes on certain sites, but I honestly can't think of any holes I love that are greatly improved by the wind coming from one particular direction instead of another. I tend to think that if an architect designs an interesting hole, it will be fun to play regardless of wind direction. I'd love to hear from one of the architects on the site about the degree to which they take wind patterns into account when designing individual holes.

[Thomas Dai]

James Braid and par-3's aligned to different points of the compass.
Atb

[Sean_A]

I can imagine holes where downwind the hole is great, but not so into the wind.  So they are great holes some of the time.  Sounds ok to me.


Ciao 

[archie_struthers]

 






I think the 7th at Pebble is a great example .

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