[Peter Pallotta]

If there was a golf course that was thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated by every single golfer who ever played it, would it in your opinion be a great golf course? Would it, for you, be so almost by definition?

If you heard that tour pros and old men and first-timers and young women and high handicappers and top-flight amateurs and joe-six packs and gca nerds alike all came off this golf course agreeing that it was challenging and yet fun to play, would you say/feel compelled to conclude: "Well then, that must be one great golf course"?

A "yes" or "no" answer would be fine, though I'd prefer more if you please.

Peter
 

[Tom_Doak]

I don't really care what everyone else thinks.  I'd still want to make up my own mind.


However, your question sort of assumes that I'll like it, too, if "every single golfer who ever played it" includes me.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - yes, it would include you. And you too would find it challenging and fun. The question is: if you and everyone else who ever played it found it challenging and fun, does that make it a great golf course?

Peter

[Matthew Essig]

My inclination would be absolutely yes...
but I don't have a strong argument for it. I guess I'll ask the question...
Is there a course that is not challenging nor fun that is considered "great?"

[John Kavanaugh]

If everyone except the critics love a course it is without question great. That's why I love Torrey Pines.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Peter - Are you really asking if: challenging + fun (for everyone) = the definition of greatness?


What would/could the possible negative variables be?
- I suppose if every golf course was then cloned to be the exact same as this one because the formula worked so well, the clones would not define greatness in my mind. Would the original maybe not be as great then because it no longer is as unique?

[Phil Young]

No. There are plenty of golf courses that I enjoy and like and yet I would never describe them as being great...

[Sean_A]

Pietro


My answer would be yes.  But of course, your scenario is impossible...so it doesn't matter.


Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

There would not be a situation where every person thought that. I have heard people not be impressed with many universally regarded greats. The Old Course does not make the top five of lots of peoples Top 5 courses in Fife.


A 54 handicap lady might not want to play Pine Valley, etc etc.

[John Connolly]

Yes. It's conceivable there may be no better criterion.

[Jay Mickle]

If there was a golf course that was thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated by every single golfer who ever played it, would it in your opinion be a great golf course? Would it, for you, be so almost by definition? 

If your definition of great was a course enjoyed and appreciated by all than, of course. That however is not the general standard. My home course is enjoyed and appreciated from beginners to a US Open champion, still it warrants only a Doak 7.
Perhaps we need new standards that are a bit more relevant to the average golfer.

[Dave McCollum]

In my very limited experience, the few times I’ve played great courses with hacks (like me) who knew or cared nothing about the architecture, they all understood on some level they had played a great course.  Rock Creek CC, for example, had that effect.  OTOH, I played with a guy who thinks Bandon Dunes is the worst course he’s ever played.  You can’t please them all.

[PCCraig]

No. I don't think a course can be considered great unless it's at least a bit controversial.

[Jeff_Brauer]

For a high percentage of Joe Six Pack types, enjoyment is more related to how cold is the beer and how hot are the beer girls.....   I am not sure what the criteria for raters is, those who tell us what we should enjoy.....


I have little problem with the idea of the "People's Choice Awards" determining golf course greatness, as opposed to the more limited Academy Award voters. Yes, they should be more in the know, but their views are also affected by their in house trends, and as we all know, they can be sort of exclusionary.


If golf courses are art, and most may not know art, but they know what they like, then if they like it, it must be very good on some level, although some upper crust types could still tell you why some art is superior to others[size=78%].[/size]


If rock music connects with the most people, it must be great on some level, although some upper crust types could still tell you why opera is superior.


The biggest problem with the OP is the broad range of "everybody."   In the real world, will there ever be consensus?

[Jason Thurman]

The only thing I consider when deciding if a course is great or not is how excited I would be to play it tomorrow. If everyone who plays it thinks it's great but I think it's a dumpster fire, they're wrong.


I would be tempted to play a course and make my own judgment if it got positive reviews by consensus though. I'd be especially intrigued if one of the 12 or so people in the world whose opinions on golf courses I actually trust was to recommend it.

[Kalen Braley]

Pietro

My answer would be yes.  But of course, your scenario is impossible...so it doesn't matter.

Ciao

I'm with Sean on this one.

I like a hypothetical question as much as the next guy....but this one is so far out there, its not particularly relevant.

Its kind of like asking if there was a politician that everyone liked and agreed with, would there be any need to have an election??   

[Kalen Braley]

P.S.  Whats that old Dr. MacK quote that went something to the effect of...

If all the reviews were good and everyone liked it, he would wonder what was wrong with it?

[Kalen Braley]

If everyone except the critics love a course it is without question great. That's why I love Torrey Pines.

JK,

I'm no industry critic, and nowhere near being in any way affiliated with the golf biz...and I can hardly think of a more over-rated course than TP.

[Andrew Carr]

No. I don't think a course can be considered great unless it's at least a bit controversial.

I remember reading that Dr. Mackenzie was disappointed at the lack of controversy surrounding Cypress Point.  I'm not sure if that's true, but with regards to CPC, it is clearly both great and lacking in controversy...unless you count there position against the PGA Tour on Membership Policy in the 90s...

[Jason Thurman]

Kalen, who exactly is Torrey Pines overrated by? I've never heard it called anything other than a decent course with great views. Sure it's on TV a lot, but it just takes one quick look at TNT's slate of nationally televised NBA games for tonight to realize that being on TV is not synonymous with being highly rated.


Andrew beat me to it: Has anyone ever not loved Cypress Point? Or Wolf Point, for that matter?

[John Kavanaugh]

If everyone except the critics love a course it is without question great. That's why I love Torrey Pines.

JK,

I'm no industry critic, and nowhere near being in any way affiliated with the golf biz...and I can hardly think of a more over-rated course than TP.

Exactly, overrated in that everyone loves it. It's a great tournament venue, it's a great asset for the community where it resides, it's a great way to spend a day with either strangers or friends. It's only failing is the lost potential to be something other than what it is. And all this after years of government intervention. Now that is a sign of greatness.

[Joe Zucker]

I’ve heard this type of claim applied to other forms of art, like literature.  If everyone likes your book, it’s probably boring and you didn’t say anything new and interesting.  Even though I view golf architecture as a form of art, this concept strikes me as less true here.  While there is definitely no consensus on what course is the best in the world, I don’t come across too many courses that are generally considered great that I don’t think are at least pretty good.  And like a few have said above, who doesn’t love Cypress Point?
 
However, if everyone likes a course (ignoring the top few courses in the world for this exercise), it probably doesn’t have any truly unique or uncommon features.  To us GCA nerds who like quirk, this would be a negative quality.  If everyone truly enjoyed a course, I bet I would like it too, but I doubt I would truly consider it great because of its lack of character or differentiation.

[Jason Topp]

I found this comment (allegedly by Perry Dye) on the Links Magazine website in response to a Doak article interesting:

"I HAVE ALWAYS RATED MY COURSES BY THE PARKING LOT.FULL IS GOOD. EMPTY IS BAD"

I do not agree with the criteria.  There are plenty of terrible golf courses that are busy and plenty of great courses that are not.  If I were an owner, however, I would consider the parking lot test the most important test.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen, who exactly is Torrey Pines overrated by? I've never heard it called anything other than a decent course with great views. Sure it's on TV a lot, but it just takes one quick look at TNT's slate of nationally televised NBA games for tonight to realize that being on TV is not synonymous with being highly rated.


Andrew beat me to it: Has anyone ever not loved Cypress Point? Or Wolf Point, for that matter?

Jason,

Overrated by the masses of golfers who aren't critics as JK says.  Every time this year...my non-GCA buddies fawn over it, and a few have even travelled to San Diego for the express purpose of playing it.

But the real measure is the price.  All of the out-of-towners lining up and falling over themselves to pay the $200+ green fee to play it.  I doubt I would pay $50 to play it much less that 2 Benjamin's...

[Kalen Braley]

Jason,   Case in point.

Golf Digest has it rated as the 39th best public course in the country  GMAFB!!

http://www.golfdigest.com/gallery/americas-100-greatest-public-courses-ranking

Golf Magazine has it #25 in the top you can play.  Holy Hurl fest!!

http://www.golf.com/photos/top-100-golf-courses-you-can-play-25-1#1

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