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Jason Thurman

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Would you have found this hole?
« on: January 10, 2016, 01:26:19 AM »
Country Club of Buffalo's 6th hole. Tee on the rim of an old quarry, playing to a green perched on a mound in the middle of the quarry.





I compare building a hole like this to calling an alley-oop for Larry Nance - it's visually striking, exciting, and an obvious thing to do. What do you say? Would you have found it?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2016, 04:27:46 AM »
Jason,

I am not sure if I would have found it and if I did I am not so sure I would have built it. It is always difficult to judge without seeing it in person but it seems pretty one dimensional to me. More visual wow over function/interest.

Jon

Greg Taylor

Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2016, 04:54:32 AM »
I can imagine getting and staying on that green when approaching from either side being a problem for high handicappers. Bit like the 2nd at Dornoch, but on steroids.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2016, 05:53:06 AM »
HOMER ALERT: The two teams I coach are fortunate to play some practice and match nines at CCBuffalo. Since we play the front nine way more often than the back nine, we see this hole with regularity.


To begin, I'm not certain who took this image, what lens and camera settings were used, and what post-processing went into the creation of this artistic fiction, but ... you know how they say that television adds weight to everyone? Well, this particular work slimmed the green down to absolutely nothing, and made it appear way longer than it is.

The 6th at CCBuffalo is one of Donald Ross' Volcano Holes. He has others, usually par threes. In fact, I have a theory that he built this one after he created another at the CCBuffalo 2nd course, the one that hosted the 1912 USGA Open and is now called Grover Cleveland golf course (a municipal layout on the Buffalo/Amherst border.)

The 6th at CCBuffalo plays normally between 123 and 167 yards. When Ron Forse and team did a renovation a few years back, they added a back tee to this hole, at 173 yards. As you guessed, the club was built on and in a limestone quarry, the second in this great land of fruited plains (after Merion, I'm told.) The hole is often at the mercy of the wind, but there's a catch.






As you can see from the image above { http://www.ccofbuffalo.org/Golf/Course-Tour/6.aspx } the tees offer different angles of attack. Unfortunately, the graphic is from the old hole, as Forse & Co. restored the left bunker to its original spot, thirty-five yards below the front of the green. What Ross did was create a true front to the green, a lay-up area for those who like to rely on a pitch and putt to save par or bogey. It takes no more than wedge or nine iron to reach that area from any of the middle tees, and the entire green is accessible from there. I remind our golfers of this option, should they reach that stage of the match with anything on the line (or if their opponent should be in trouble off the tee.) In an 18-hole round/match, it comes too early for such strategy, but in a 9-hole, high school match, it is the perfect time to make a statement.


Back to the hole. The green is quite long, probably 30 yards from back to front. It is fairly wide at front, gets a bit wider 15 feet up, then narrows to the back ledge. As you guessed, it drops off at the sides and the back (quite precipitously, I might add.) It is a great place to learn to hit flop shots, but not a great place to have one in competition!!


Since the green sits at an angle to every tee, that spot 15 feet from the front is the widest spot (and it is quite wide, about 30 feet across.) With a 7-iron or less in your hands, you can hit that spot. If the flag is way back, you're not hunting it (unless you're daft) so every hole location is accessible from that spot I mentioned.


The hole is so much more playable than the opening image alludes. It is not unfair in the slightest and although visually stimulating, is also architecturally and strategically sound. If i were a member, i would live on this hole; it would be my version of the Seamus McDuff hole from Golf In The Kingdom. CCBuffalo is fortunate to have two volcanic par-three holes (although this one is better) and two more that are their equal or better. The course is on a smallish piece of land, so the par five holes are reduced to two (one reachable, one perhaps not) and an intrigue of par-four holes that are the match of any course in the area.


In other words, this picture needs a thousand words to tell its true story, for the thousand-word picture it paints is a false one.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 06:08:48 AM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2016, 05:57:12 AM »
Well, if I was walking a property and came across that scene....you can be damn sure I would use that knob for a green.  In truth, I think everybody else would as well.  Lets put it this way, it looks like one of those holes which is worth a bit of an added walk to include in a routing.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2016, 06:13:27 AM »

Lets put it this way, it looks like one of those holes which is worth a bit of an added walk to include in a routing.

Sean,

It's worth noting that the walk from five green to six tee is about twenty paces. The fifth is a great, short par four whose green sits near the quarry rim, but not against it. The seventh sits up to the left of the sixth green, about a fifty pace walk. It is the reachable par five that I mentioned above.

A second point, and this is in no way an attack on Jason Thurman and his initial questions. If one has played the hole, immediately recognizes the deception of this particular image, and subsequently titles the thread "Who the fack facked with this photo?"
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2016, 06:47:58 AM »
Ronald


Even if the hole is a bit tight, I still would have gone for it.  How is it possible to walk past this area and not use it? 


Was the quarry buried in vegetation when Ross first saw the site?


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2016, 06:57:05 AM »
That's a good question. I don't know how long the quarry had been dormant when the decision was made to move east, away from the city, for the third iteration of a club course. One thing is for sure: the membership did its best to bury the quarry in vegetation in the ensuing years. When I was a high-schooler in the early 1980s, the entire rim (and much of the course) had been treed, so the wind was a non-factor. In 2008, as the financial collapse was happening, we had an October ice blizzard and over 500 trees were lost on the course. As dead wood was taken down, it dawned to the membership that their course had been hidden away for decades.


I'll see what I can dig out on the quarry, its closing and the building of the course.


Quickie Search:
In a textbook dated 1901, Young's Quarry is referenced on p. 49 for its limestone. Since the course was built in the early/mid 1920s, we can guess that "covered in vegetation" would not have been probable. To the right of the green, along the Onondaga Escarpment, there is a lateral hazard of swampy area. Lots of balls from the 5th tee that stray right, meet their end down there.


https://books.google.com/books?id=sZxPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=youngs+quarry+williamsville&source=bl&ots=--6iUSTm_3&sig=4p2SVKE6uN3i7mYpVlvLwFwcrLo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj954yVmp_KAhWEbT4KHR99DQcQ6AEIUTAJ#v=onepage&q=youngs%20quarry%20williamsville&f=false
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 07:12:45 AM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2016, 09:28:26 AM »
Excellent Larry Nance reference.

JESII

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Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2016, 09:36:08 AM »
Funny...I was about to post...Larry Nance!?! Really...


Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2016, 10:08:29 AM »

Probably no harder to 'find' this hole - pretty self evident - just wander around and look for the flat spot.   ;)






Jon,
A better photo




"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2016, 11:30:49 AM »
Jim:

What does Ran say in his write-up of Lahinch, something like "the real crime with the Dell hole would have been not to place a green in this natural depression." (There I go with the cutting and pasting again, I'll need to watch that.)

You could make the same kind of statement about Ross' Knoll holes.

Sven


"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2016, 12:02:41 PM »
Jim:

What does Ran say in his write-up of Lahinch, something like "the real crime with the Dell hole would have been not to place a green in this natural depression." (There I go with the cutting and pasting again, I'll need to watch that.)

You could make the same kind of statement about Ross' Knoll holes.

Sven


 ;)


 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2016, 12:03:34 PM »
Excellent Larry Nance reference.


If only Lenny Wilkens had coached Dominique for more than half a season.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2016, 01:41:58 PM »

Jason,
 
That photo makes me want to go to Buffalo, but, not at this time of year.
 
I don't know that I would have "discovered" that hole.
 
One would think that it's discovery and retention would be in the era when quirk was accepted.
 
I also wonder, if Ross wasn't the architect, how long it would have lasted.

Country Club of Buffalo's 6th hole.
Tee on the rim of an old quarry, playing to a green perched on a mound in the middle of the quarry.





I compare building a hole like this to calling an alley-oop for Larry Nance - it's visually striking, exciting, and an obvious thing to do. What do you say? Would you have found it?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2016, 01:47:10 PM »
The only question to me....

What did it look like before it was turned into a hole?  how much dirt was added or removed?  What it obscured?  etc

I don't think its a sure bet to say everyone would have found this hole without a before pic.

P.S.  I could have easily seen someone putting a tee there instead of a green.

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2016, 02:18:33 PM »
This is such a vague question. As so many others have said, the original condition of the quarry, in particular the greensite, would have to be known - was it a small mound of waste material, or was it in it's current shape and dimension. Also, where/when in the routing process was the hole created. Kalen suggested the greensite might have made more sense as a teeing ground...with perhaps the edge of the quarry where the tees sit as the more dramatic greensite. I agree wholeheartedly...it may have been. Without more information, this is an exercise is futility. Who knows?


Ron, do you know of any available pics of the hole in it's early iteration? If so, perhaps the question might be a bit more interesting.

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2016, 02:40:27 PM »
Here is a 1927 aerial of CC of Buffalo which looks likely to be the resource used for the renovation?


http://library.buffalo.edu/maps/img/8226-495-1927-200%25.jpg


Not sure it helps this discussion in any way but, interesting.


Wayne_Freedman

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Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2016, 06:19:51 PM »

'Found' it as an architect?
'Found' it as a semi-blind player on the teeing ground?
'Found' it with the shot?


Photographically, I would like the see a high wide angle   (14-18mm) taken from behind the green,  looking back at the teeing ground for context (in morning or afternoon light with long shadows). Low would do, as well, with the slope as a foreground.


That shot in the initial post is just not the best picture unless you like views of empty grass.


Interesting hole, though. By no means is it boring. It's memorable. We like memorable.



« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 06:27:13 PM by Wayne_Freedman »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole? New
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2016, 06:47:29 PM »
I remain astonished at how Ross somehow remains underrated on this website.  Surely we would all have immediately sited a green there and incorporated the hole seamlessly into the routing.  Like shooting fish in a barrel.  A no brainer.  A slam dunk. 

Mike
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 01:40:25 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2016, 06:59:40 PM »
I only played CCB once but this is a hole you don't forget. It was a 7 or 8 iron when I played it. The picture makes it look much longer. My initial thought when I stepped on the tee was that the green was floating in the air.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Thomas Dai

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Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2016, 04:15:12 AM »
If this hole had been 'found' in the period since Pete/Alice Dye built the 17th at TPC Sawgrass would the 'finder' or the client have been able to resist filling the whole quarry area with a lake?


Atb





Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2016, 07:43:02 AM »
I only played CCB once but this is a hole you don't forget. It was a 7 or 8 iron when I played it. The picture makes it look much longer. My initial thought when I stepped on the tee was that the green was floating in the air.

Rob, does it look more like the photo in the first post, or more like Jim Kennedy's photo in reply #10 above? 

Rob Marshall

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Re: Would you have found this hole?
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2016, 07:49:06 AM »
Much more like the picture in the first post. It was pretty amazing. It  was probably 15 to 12 years ago. It's the only thing I remember about the course it was so striking.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

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