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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what point does function get reactivated/reclaimed ?
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2016, 07:31:42 AM »
Mike,
It is always a judgement call depending on the situation.  Can you comment on why many architects designed elasticity into their courses and if they did, for what purpose?  No one seems to want to comment about this?
Mark

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what point does function get reactivated/reclaimed ?
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2016, 07:47:28 AM »
Doesn't elasticity refer to extending tees...only?  If not, how does elasticity work for bunkers etc?


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what point does function get reactivated/reclaimed ?
« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2016, 08:15:55 AM »
Sean,
You have done your homework about many classic architects.  What do you think they indended?  Many wrote about it.  They knew their golf courses were going to have to evolve with the game. 

How do you handle a situation (I have come across many) where the architect planned for elasticity but the club sold off property that was intended for that purpose.  Doesn't this get back to Mike's doing the right thing is a judgment call? 

I think we all agree on one thing, pure "restoration" of a static object is easy.  Where the debate comes in is in the "restoration" of an intended purpose as that is much more difficult and subjective. 

My point about elasticity is architects knew when they were dead and gone the intended purpose of their designs might be changing and some tried to plan for that. 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what point does function get reactivated/reclaimed ?
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2016, 08:26:48 AM »
Mike,
It is always a judgement call depending on the situation.  Can you comment on why many architects designed elasticity into their courses and if they did, for what purpose?  No one seems to want to comment about this?
Mark
Mark,
I don't know the answer.  I have my thoughts as to why many things were done by the ODG's and so much of it is just speculation.  I am assuming you must have come across some writings regarding elasticity from some of the ODG's.  Myself, I have never really researched it.  For lack of a better word I would say that I don't hold all of the ODG's in the same "god like" esteem that many on here do and I try to be realistic about what they , themselves, were thinking at the time.  Maybe some were thinking there would come a day when another tee was needed.  I don't know.  I have no problem with someone adding length or tees to an ODG course if it is just a typical ODG course etc but I can't call adding tees elasticity.  I just call that lengthening.  I say that because the ratio of additional length is not designed into the second shot etc.  Any argument I have is regarding the definition of restoration.  I have seen too much of renovation passed off as restoration to suit me and in so many cases it was just a case of people thinking they needed to spend more.
Cheers...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what point does function get reactivated/reclaimed ?
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2016, 08:51:20 AM »
Mark


Practically speaking, except for a relatively small number of courses which I believe should be preserved at all costs...even if the USGA an R&A have to fund it without any say in the product, I am not terribly fussed by architectural meddling.  For sure I am against most of it because I think it a waste of money when considering the target market, but its not up to me. 


Theoretically speaking, before I started to make judgements based on archie intent I would want to see that written about for specific courses.  An archie making a general proclamation in a mag piece is not nearly the same thing. I thought this immediately when you mentioned Colt and trees.  So far as I know, tree plans were a rarity for Colt.  Because he did have a specific plan on some courses doesn't mean that specificity can be applied across the board. 


I don't have any answers to your questions, only my opinions...which I believe is the point people are trying to drive across on this thread.  Trying to balance a desire for change (for many reasons) and an adherence to the original (or at least close to original) design tenents is a job necessarily based heavily in subjectivity.  I am only trying to demonstrate that once we have some subjectivity in the picture, restoration is not the correct terminology.  But, because the idea of "basing decision making in the eyes of the ODG" is easier to sell, "restoration" is the term used. I think once changes are deemed necessary (this is the step which I think often goes badly wrong) its usually a better idea to at least refer back to the original archie.  That said, if a course isn't precious and if a good archie is doing the work, changes can lead to a better golf course.  You roll the dice and take your chances...which is why there should be something seriously amiss before clubs start spending a ton of dough to muck about. 


From my PoV, the best approach is to use old info to guide in ripping out trees, pushing out grass lines, improving drainage, enlarging greens and improving their quality.  After that sort of stuff is done and settled for some time then maybe look at changes to the remaining architecture if things are not working right.  More often than not no more work will be necessary.


Ciao


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what point does function get reactivated/reclaimed ?
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2016, 09:12:10 AM »
Mike,
Lots of great points. 

Sean,
My feeling is similar to yours, very few courses should be "restored" in the purest sense of the word, BUT EVERY COURSE deserves careful research and study before recommending change and bringing in the heavy equipment!   

Patrick_Mucci

Re: At what point does function get reactivated/reclaimed ?
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2016, 10:46:25 AM »
let me repost my original question.

I'm not talking about features that no longer exist, I'm talking about features that have lost their function in terms of interfacing with the golfer.  Those features remain, physically, on the golf course, they just don't perform their intended function.



When a feature becomes obsolete and no longer functions as intended, at what point should it be reactivated/reclaimed/restored ?
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