[Mike_Young]

Mike: Look at it from the R&A's perspective. Holding an open at a course owned by such a visible and divisive figure would surely garner negative press, which could tarnish the R&A's brand. From their perspective, why on earth would they risk it?

Matt,
I see what you are saying but I just sense there would be a ton of undercurrents going on.  Trump would start all sorts of power plays and he knows the average guy coming to his resort doesn't know if he is an R&A member or not....using the PGA as an example...I imagine his first move if they were to block Doral would be to make his pros quit the PGA.  I know some pros who have discussed that very thing but a dude like the Donald would be stirring all kind of crap because he could.JMO

[Mike_Young]

Mike with hundreds of legitimate courses to choose from that could host major tournies, do you think the PGA or R&A really has any issue with losing a course here and there to bad behavior?

And to boot would corporate sponsorship dry up because someone like Trump is being excluded?  I'm going to guess not...

Trump is not worried about losing the championship unless it were to cost him room nites down the road.  That's why he has it in the first place.  But he gets just as much free press this way.  The PGA and R&A are associations.  They can't mess with Trump nearly as much as he can their members and vendors. 

[Mark_F]

If Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness joined Portrush, would the R&A take the Open off them?

[Mark Chaplin]

Mark a little like no Democrat president or past president hasn't played Augusta I wouldn't hold your breath on those two.

Turnberry doesn't get the crowds for the open and with Muirfield unlikely to vote re women, the rota will have two spaces filled by Hoylake and Portrush. Sounds like a win/win for the R&A.

[Adam Lawrence]

FBD -- no Hawtree at Turnberry, Martin Ebert is doing the work.


Chappers is half right here. Turnberry is only ever an occasional Open venue for the R&A because the logistics are so tough - it's down the end of a not that great road and there's no other easy way in unless you've a chopper. Hence the crowds there are lower than elsewhere. But it's hosted several iconic Championships, hence the desire to return.


IMO the R&A is playing a long game here. Trump is what, late 60s? If Turnberry is a once every 15 year venue approx then they are figuring to miss one rotation and then see. He won't be around forever and the R&A can wait.


I wouldn't be so sure on Muirfield Mr C.

[Ed Tilley]

I think if they dropped Turnberry it would not create a space for another directly.


The 'kings' have wanted to take the championship to the South West and to Wales and also back to Ireland. Portrush may be sorted but the logistics of Saunton and Porthcawl have never been ironed out. If they could be these courses would go on the rota regardless of another dropping off it.


Logically the only addition could come from somewhere that ticked the logistical boxes and then they made the course. Everything on the Amateur championship rota seems to have been explored already.


This sounds like a bleat (provided its real) to take the 2020 championship to RSG. I suspect its not real.

Post Portrush, would the R&A ever take the Open to southern Ireland? It is "The Open Championship" and not the British Open after all. Is there a links course in Ireland that is good enough and could logistically host it - obviously the likes of Ballybunion and Waterville are too remote. I suppose Portmarnock is the obvious choice but would that be able to do it?

I know there is centuries of politics / animosity / conflict that runs very deep that may make this an impossible idea. There is, however, a long tradition of GB & I golf. Is this something that the R&A have even discussed?

[Adam Lawrence]

Well, Portmarnock hosted the Amateur back in 1949. Pretty certain that would be the only Rep of Ireland course to even enter such a discussion.

[Richard Fisher]

The Amateur Championship (1949) and Walker Cup (1991) have both been played at Portmarnock, and even in 1949 the playing of the Amateur at Portmarnock caused some high-profile dissent (see e.g. Henry Longhurst on the subject in Golf Mixture), with an Ulster winner just to cement the many ironies involved. Ireland is of course (as with rugby) only one nation in golfing terms, governed by the Golfing Union of Ireland, but I would think it very unlikely indeed that the Open or Amateur Championships would ever now venture south of the border.

The major logistic problem that Turnberry has always posed for the R&A, regardless of access and the course itself, has been the lack of a substantial local club to work with on the ground. This was arguably the biggest single  reason for the absence of the course from the Open rota for sixteen years. Host clubs invariably provide a massive proportion of the volunteer labour required to run championships effectively (and not just for stewarding), and the presence at Turnberry of only a small local members' section, with limited rights of access, does present very real organisational challenges.

[Thomas Dai]

This might be worth reading - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/12047415/European-Tour-rips-up-Scottish-Open-plans-after-Donald-Trump-furore.html


atb

[Michael Graham]

Aside from the publicity surely Turnberry being removed from the rota won't make too much difference. With The Open going to Portrush in 2019 and then theoretically staying on the rota beyond that, there will continue to be nine clubs the R&A rotates between, with the Old Course still getting The Open every five years.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Well, Portmarnock hosted the Amateur back in 1949. Pretty certain that would be the only Rep of Ireland course to even enter such a discussion.

I agree... and considering it is also the home course of Gavin Caldwell, this year's R&A Captain, I'm sure there's the odd murmuring.


However, I'm with Adam on Turnberry. It's only held The Open four times, it's a logistical nightmare and Portrush has already been taken back in to "replace" it. They'll leave it as a part-time venue and possibly bring it back in to the rota sometime in the future.

[Niall C]

Kalen,
I'm not arguing whether he is spewing garbage.  I'm saying the R&A needs to really weigh where they are with this.  Most big time business type dudes will have an equal and opposite reaction somewhere in there.  Just like the PGA and Doral...the PGA already has some pretty significant problems and if the PGA steps into the fray it could cost a lot of pros jobs...and you never know what else goes on behind the scene.  I think DT probably has a pretty clear perspective of the affect the R&A or the PGA or the USGA has on is day to day resort /club business and knows it's not much.

Mike


There is substantial evidence that the effect of hosting an Open has, before and after, and you can bet that Trump will lose out if Turnberry is perceived to have been taken off the rota. My guess is that the R&A will make some non-commital public statement about Turnberry next hosting the Open while privately saying not in Trumps lifetime. This will effect business at Turnberry, no question. Whether the buzz about the work to the course helps compensate for that remains to be seen. As an aside, and I don't have any figures to stand by, but I'd suggest you underestimate the amount of domestic play it gets.


What I think will be more interesting will be Trumps attitude should he be banned from entering the UK which in my view is unlikely despite the petition now reaching 550,000 signatures. Will he still want to continue investing and indeed will he still want to own the resort ?


Niall

[Niall C]

The major logistic problem that Turnberry has always posed for the R&A, regardless of access and the course itself, has been the lack of a substantial local club to work with on the ground. This was arguably the biggest single  reason for the absence of the course from the Open rota for sixteen years. Host clubs invariably provide a massive proportion of the volunteer labour required to run championships effectively (and not just for stewarding), and the presence at Turnberry of only a small local members' section, with limited rights of access, does present very real organisational challenges.

Richard


There is a members club at Turnberry and while I'm not sure of the numbers I suspect it's similar in size to other clubs. For what it is worth, I marshalled at Turnberry in 2009 as part of a contingent from my club who were in charge of marshalling one hole. The other holes were marshalled by other local clubs. I imagine this is the model that the R&A normally uses and indeed it is the model they are using for this years Open at Troon.


Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Kalen,
I'm not arguing whether he is spewing garbage.  I'm saying the R&A needs to really weigh where they are with this.  Most big time business type dudes will have an equal and opposite reaction somewhere in there.  Just like the PGA and Doral...the PGA already has some pretty significant problems and if the PGA steps into the fray it could cost a lot of pros jobs...and you never know what else goes on behind the scene.  I think DT probably has a pretty clear perspective of the affect the R&A or the PGA or the USGA has on is day to day resort /club business and knows it's not much.

I think the same Niall. They have a few years to decide. RSG will get the 2020 on the basis on the 2 in five year rotation for English courses, 2021 will go to the Old Lady for the 150th championship. Maybe 2022 for Turnberry maybe not. I see a statement from the R & A going something like "we did consider the 2020 championship going to Turnberry but wanted to see how the major changes to the course worked".


Mike


There is substantial evidence that the effect of hosting an Open has, before and after, and you can bet that Trump will lose out if Turnberry is perceived to have been taken off the rota. My guess is that the R&A will make some non-commital public statement about Turnberry next hosting the Open while privately saying not in Trumps lifetime. This will effect business at Turnberry, no question. Whether the buzz about the work to the course helps compensate for that remains to be seen. As an aside, and I don't have any figures to stand by, but I'd suggest you underestimate the amount of domestic play it gets.


What I think will be more interesting will be Trumps attitude should he be banned from entering the UK which in my view is unlikely despite the petition now reaching 550,000 signatures. Will he still want to continue investing and indeed will he still want to own the resort ?


Niall

[Mike_Young]

Niall,
What did he do to have them petition for non-entry? 

[Richard Fisher]

Niall

Many thanks and absolutely right, there is a club at Turnberry but it is a (relatively) small one without the organisational control of most other Open hosts, and differentiated in kind not just from HCEG Muirfield, Hoylake, RStG, Troon etc, but from both St Andrews and Carnoustie (where of course there are several host clubs each playing on the Open links, able to provide resources of many different kinds).

[Niall C]

Mike


It was his recent comments regarding barring Muslims from entering the US, plus his comment about there being no go areas in London, was the tipping point. The Scottish Government stripped him of his Global Scottish Ambassador "role" whatever that was, and Robert Gordon University have I understand taken back the honorary degree he was given on the back of his Balmedie development.


The petition I was referring to was an online petition to Downing Street. This is a recent thing they now do and not sure if it is law or convention but if a petition gets over 100,000 signatures then they have to debate it in Parliament. The petition on banning Trump is at 550,000 and counting which is the largest response they have ever had. I suspect Donald might be quite pleased with that. Personally I don't think he will get banned given he's a potential US President and all the diplomatic headaches that might cause down the line but we will wait and see.


Richard


Again from personal experience, ordinary members of host clubs tend to want to swank it up by purely spectating and taking advantage of all the privileges that they get eg. free pass for the tournament plus restricted access to their clubhouse. If you can do that why be a marshal ? I dare say some do marshal but most if not all marshals come from neighbouring clubs.


Niall

[Richard Fisher]

Niall,

Thanks and again, agreed, although NB that there is a lot more to 'hosting' (as a club) in a volunteer sense than providing stewarding alone. If you look at the arrangements for both British and US Opens, you will see a plethora of other functions,  in which host club members will be taking a major role. My copy of the 2012 programme for the Open at Lytham suggests that RLSA members were involved (in addition to stewarding) in competitor registration, scoring, local PR, litter collection, youth employment (e.g. for catering), clubhouse arrangements, the tented village, hospitality, plus (of course) preparation of the course itself. Which in part accounts (so I have been informed) for  the Turnberry club 'problem'.

[Phil Lipper]

They needed to be proactive on this and make a statement before it became an issue and sponsors started to get pressure.

[Philip Hensley]

They should use all this free publicity to their advantage. Market it as the bad boy Open championship venue.

I have to assume this decreases the value of the Turnberry property, at least while it still owned by trump.  Is the R&A trying to pressure Trump into selling the course?  If he does sell will the open return to Turnberry?  Either way i think its likely that trump takes this court before he decides to sell.

[jeffwarne]

But he's so good for the game! Wonder how that C&C project is coming along.

Toxic is a good word.
I expressed many similar insights on Trump when he purchased Doral.
Excess and buffoonery are never "good for game"
Of course I never thought he would take it to this level
Out of respect for my radio show partner whose checks are signed by the buffoon, I softened my remarks on this site about Doral and Trump in general many months ago.


I was just in Morocco and spent a day at the American embassy, where I learned Morocco was the first country to recognize the US as a country in 1777, and later confirmed it in 1787.
My group and I visited multiple Moroccan cities and encountered literally hundreds of thousands of people (just in the market of Marakech alone )
None in our very visibly Western group encountered even one antiwestern remark or even less than a friendly look.
I felt incredibly safe everywhere I traveled-much more than many US neighboring countries or even US cities.
To paint the entire Muslim community with the same broad brush would be the same as barring all Christians from travelling because an extremists blew up an abortion clinic or a Catholic was responsible for a bomb in Northern Ireland.


The last thing this country needs is a potential leader spewing ignorant divisive hate (exactly what Isis wants)
I'm just amazed anyone of any intelligence can defend anything the buffoon says regarding golf or anything else.
I'm also amazed when people comment how intelligent he and his advisiors are. (Ignorant, abrasive, and rude aren't qualities I associate with intelligent)
I would never and will never patronize a Trump property-originally not so much to make a statement but more because I just don't enjoy any of the thing that his organization values in its presentation of golf.
So many great courses-no need to see the asshole traps.


Amazed it too such such extreme behavior by Trump to change many otherwise seemingly intelligent minds, but I'm thrilled I don't have to watch this buffoon spew more drivel at golf's oldest and most important championship.

[Jud_T]

Jeff,


I was being sarcastic.  The "he's good for the game" refrain was being spouted by many here when he was merely a blowhard businessman in golf acquisition mode.  I never would have stepped foot on any of his properties, golf or otherwise, before this run but I can't help but wonder how this is possibly good for any of his business interests long-term.  Romney had 27% of the Hispanic vote and got dusted.  Trump has zero chance in a general election.  Looks as if his desire for attention has finally gotten the best of him.  If I were one of his kids I'd be drinking heavily and counting the days till the will kicked in.  Those who think this is all political posturing for the primaries would do well to research the racist practices of his and his father's companies in the New York area in the 70's.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,


I was being sarcastic.  The "he's good for the game" refrain was being spouted by many here when he was merely a blowhard businessman in golf acquisition mode.  I never would have stepped foot on any of his properties, golf or otherwise, before this run but I can't help but wonder how this is possibly good for any of his business interests long-term.  Romney had 27% of the Hispanic vote and got dusted.  Trump has zero chance in a general election.  Looks as if his desire for attention has finally gotten the best of him.  If I were one of his kids I'd be drinking heavily and counting the days till the will kicked in.  Those who think this is all political posturing for the primaries would do well to research the racist practices of his and his father's companies in the New York area in the 70's.

Jud T
I knew that-your post was just the most succinct and to the point

[Mike_Young]

This entire Trump deal is a phenomenon.  He doesn't pay for any of this press and the more that hits the more press he gets.  The guy hasn't won anything yet and he's being barred and all sorts of things.  He makes Rodney Dangerfield look like an amateur...Watch..he will come out making money on all of this stuff.   He doesn't want to be president. 

[jeffwarne]

This entire Trump deal is a phenomenon.  He doesn't pay for any of this press and the more that hits the more press he gets.  The guy hasn't won anything yet and he's being barred and all sorts of things.  He makes Rodney Dangerfield look like an amateur...Watch..he will come out making money on all of this stuff.   He doesn't want to be president.

and has the added benefit of being an ignorance test of the American people and consumer-to say nothing of sounding the final death knell of the Republican party (which didn't need much help in that department)
"Making money" off real world events and tragedies doesn't make you smart

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