[Adrian_Stiff]

A place like Cumberwell Park might be an excellent study in modern design.  On site there is a 9 holer which essentially espouses the GCA principles of design.  Sure, the soil is not going to support the fine fescues we like to see, but to offset this the site is hilly so the ball will run and maybe more importantly, the fairway lines are wide to encourage run.  Finally, the site is basically treeless.  The course stands in complete contrast to holes built much earlier at the bottom of the site.  I am not saying its a world beater, but Cumberwell Park Orange is just as good as Leckford Old...indeed, the two courses are quite similar.  Adrian tells me that many members pick and choose when to play the Orange because it gets windy.  This is quite odd to me given the love links enjoy in GB&I.  It seems strange to differentiate between the two styles where wind is concerned. 


Ciao

Sean - Whilst the Orange nine is my favourite like yours, I have never heard anyone else outside of this group saying it is their favourite. I have heard people like the Yellow, Blue and Red best. When I talk to people about the Orange, they say things like "I don't know why they never planted any trees, it would have been okay now" or "you have never really got a flat putt, have you" or even worse "not got any water on". Only in a blue moon will someone understand the philosophy behind it and understand the ten or twelve subtle aspects behind it. It is the same with the Codrington versus Stranahan. If you talk about strategic golf it only really relates to the over 50s. Younger people even 20 handicappers still look upon flying traps and pitching it on the green rather than the ground game and placing your tee shot to get a wider opening. (As I am typing this Matt the head greenkeeper rang me, he said popularity in the nines is Orange course 4th, same sort of reasons exposed, contour of greens)


Whilst I still like the 'minor opinion style' I think that you have to step back and understand why the custodians of the game 50 years ago to present have applied the design thoughts they have and used narrowness, water and trees. Width was no longer part of the defence.

[David_Tepper]

Out of curiosity, among you GCA-ers resident in GB&I, what are your 2 or 3 favorite modern inland courses (assuming you even have that many ).

Anybody like The Grove, Wisley, Chart Hills?

Are the Woburn courses considered modern?

[Sean_A]

David

I haven't played many quite honestly because not many entice me.  For me, its Stiff's Cumberwell Park Orange and Players Club Stranahan.  Not saying they are the best though. 

Strictly inland...I think Bearwood Lakes is the best I have seen...The Grove isn't far behind.  I would like to see Loch Lomond, Queenwood and a few others if it isn't much bother.

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Adrian, Sean - far be it for the likes of me to give advice, but here's what you do:

1 - with Ran's blessings, get "Golf Club Atlas - GB&I Edition" up and running.
2 - populate it with Sean's course profiles/tours (and Jon's and Benjamin's etc)
3 - make membership-posting privileges on the discussion board "by invitation only"  (it won't be really, or at least not for very long, but make sure to put up a few roadblocks to new members at first)
4 - provide as many of us here as you like, especially the articulate anti-tree brigade and the fervent fans of Tom D's work -- with fake names/personas, and a crash course on 'sounding' British on the page, e.g. things like "at the weekend" or "on level par"
5 - find several "media types", preferably those who have some minor measure of profile via sporting publications (print or digital) of some note, and then "facilitate their access" at one of the most prestigious/private/top ranked course around
6 - In a sort of friendly-yet-standoffish way, imply that there are more such "perks" in store for those who are true "friends" of Sean and Adrian, for those -- only a few now, yes, just a very special few -- who truly understand golf as it's meant to be played 
6-B - subtly steer said media to "Golf Club Atlas - GB&I Edition" and have them note how so many apparently well travelled golfers all agree on the essence of golf at its finest (and suggest to them that you'll try -- but it is hard, it is a very exclusive place -- to get them membership and posting rights on the discussion board
7 - create the impression/feeling/rumour that Adrian is in talks with (...wait for it...between you and me...a wink is as good as a nudge to a blind man, eh)... Mr. Mike Kaiser about a possible (...top secret now...you're getting this exclusively...not yet for print...let me tell you, I've seen Adrian's early routing, and...) walking only, out of the way, and -- judging from the quality of the site and what people are saying about Adrian's routing -- out of the gate a Top 10 in the world 18 hole championship test
8 - have the media types you have cultivated believe that a one-on-one interview with (...wait for it...) Mr Keiser is possible, not likely but possible (after all, he is very good friends with a very good friend, a former Walker Cupper who is a member at, well, you tell me where he is not a member more like it), but that if they want to get a leg up and into Mr K's good books it might be possible, just possible, to arrange an interview with Adrian
9 - have some of us posters on "Golf Club Atlas - GB&I Edition" -- the ones with the most posts, who others seem to respect -- start at first one thread, and then another, and then a few more -- mysteriously titled, dropping hints here and another hint there, never mentioning Mr. K or Adrian by name, or the Course That Will Surely Be Top 10 In the World (...some have seen an early routing....) but alluding to the rumour that a certain 9 holes by a certain...well, enough said for now
10 - after some weeks, do have Adrian grant an interview -- one at a time, a personal interview  -- to each of the media types you now have in your pockets (note: Adrian can and should say exactly the same thing to each of them, but separately, at different times)
11 - Adrian, in person, should prove a surprisingly humble and generous fellow, and after buying the media a pint he might suggest (...just on the side, only if you're interested) a visit and tour of Cumberland Park Orange (...it's a little, well, hidden gem, and underappreciated by the masses....but ah, between you and me...for your ears only...the place that a Certain America Developer fell in love with ...and...well, can't say any more at this point)
12 - Sit back and watch the buzz start happening, and soon the Orange's tee sheet will be full -- and soon after that the Players Club will be the talk of the town -- and everyone will be singing from the same hymnal the praises of golf as it is meant to be played!!

Peter
Mostly, almost entirely, but not wholly in jest
 

[paul cowley]

 

[Mark Chaplin]

Chart Hills is a half decent course as is Remedy Oak. Wisley and Queenwood aren't great designs but are kept immaculately.

[Mark Pearce]

Close House Colt is very good.

[Martin Toal]

I think Remedy, at first glance looks a bit Woburn-ish, which is not a bad start. Then you start playing and soon encounter a few holes that reveal the rather contrived nature of the course and the desire to have 'memorable' feature holes, which don't really work but also have knock on effects in the flow of the course elsewhere. In the end, the holes which annoy are more memorable than those which please.


Bearwood Lakes, where I play, looks less contrived, in my opinion, and there are fewer holes which annoy the player. It also uses the land better, and the course maintenance plans include shifting patterns and densities of rough, and evolution of holes to make them more enjoyable for the player.


In terms of other modern inland courses, the Edinburgh at Wentworth has got to be in the conversation.

[Tim Gallant]

Out of curiosity, among you GCA-ers resident in GB&I, what are your 2 or 3 favorite modern inland courses (assuming you even have that many ).

Anybody like The Grove, Wisley, Chart Hills?

Are the Woburn courses considered modern?

David - Loch Lomond is right up there for me, and possibly one of the only modern inland courses I have played since I have been across. For a wild card, I really enjoyed the Roxburghe, which is in the boarders. It was in perfect condition for a European Q-school event taking place the next week, so we possibly saw it in the best light, but I had a great time playing the course and saw many options on lots of the holes.

[Adam Lawrence]

Chart Hills is a half decent course as is Remedy Oak. Wisley and Queenwood aren't great designs but are kept immaculately.

I like Chart Hills very much. It is of its time, but that's ok; it has a bunch of good, thought provoking holes. Steve did a very strong job IMO. Unfortunately the greens crew, which was 20-odd strong when it opened, had been cut to five when I was last there, which doesn't help. Tough for five people to maintain all those bunkers.


I suspect Beaverbrook, when it opens next year, will be a player in this discussion. Centurion Club has got a lot of ink, but I haven't seen it. It doesn't look my sort of thing from photos, but we all know how deceiving that can be.

[Sean_A]

See what I mean?  A lot of wishy washy stuff with nobody coming out and declaring stars of the show.  LOch Lomond seems to remain the king of the heap by some distance and yet it still (after countless amounts of work) has drainage problems.  I find it incredible that a much better job hasn't been done in GB&I with inland courses. 


Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean


The interesting thing was that Loch Lomond was designed by a couple of Americans. Is it the case that US architects (GCA's practicing in the US) are less inhibited in some way ?


Niall

[Martin Toal]

See what I mean?  A lot of wishy washy stuff with nobody coming out and declaring stars of the show.  LOch Lomond seems to remain the king of the heap by some distance and yet it still (after countless amounts of work) has drainage problems.  I find it incredible that a much better job hasn't been done in GB&I with inland courses. 


Ciao

Sean


I think that reflects the dearth of great courses in recent years, at least those which the average player could play. I hear Queenwood is great, but will probably never get the chance to verify that for myself. Likewise The Wisely.


I quite like The Grove, although its shortcomings are obvious.


I haven't played Centurion, although I hear it is good (although perhaps not great).


If there had been any recent sandbelt courses in Surrey/Berks, we might have had a winner. 


In the meantime, of those I have played I will stick with Wentworth Edinburgh, with Woburn Marquess in second place, and my own usual place, Bearwood Lakes in third.

[Tim Gallant]

See what I mean?  A lot of wishy washy stuff with nobody coming out and declaring stars of the show.  LOch Lomond seems to remain the king of the heap by some distance and yet it still (after countless amounts of work) has drainage problems.  I find it incredible that a much better job hasn't been done in GB&I with inland courses. 


Ciao

I played a day after they received 5cm of rain, and while the place was wet, it certainly wasn't unplayable, in fact, I thought it had drained very well. No standing water, and very few places that required a casual water drop. The other times, the course played great. Granted I wouldn't go there in the winter months, but then again, there are a number of courses that close for the winter, so I wouldn't penalise them for this.

[Thomas Dai]

There are surely different levels of newish inland GB courses to consider and most of those mentioned above are the bigger budget, higher profile ones whereas I would imagine that the bulk of those built over the last few decades are likely to be in the Doak Scale range 1 to 6 rather than 7 and above.


Now being more a fan of links and heathlands and uplands and yee olde kind of courses I'm not particularly attracted to more recently built inlanders. However, I do respect their position in the golfing market place, both private, proprietary or resort or combination, and as such am happy to play them on an occasional basis. Playing such courses also provides a nice contrast to my usual favourite type of course, which is no bad thing as it's pretty  easy to get complacent if you are not careful and the grass is rarely greener over the hill.


Although I might not want to play newish inlanders on a regular weekly or even more frequent basis I have enjoyed playing courses such as the two at Minchinhampton New, especially the Cherrington, and Bewdley Pines near Kidderminster has a terrifically intricate and in places eccentrically tight front-9 with a more open back-9. Both of these are on free-draining terrain however, and that's a key factor for me.


As to bigger budget, higher profile courses I thoroughly enjoyed playing the much criticised by some 2010 at Celtic Manor, as on a hole by hole basis, and ignoring all the Ryder Cup hype etc, it's mostly damn good golf, but  that has a lot to do IMO with the amount of money spent on on-course drainage etc as it does play pretty dry.


As to the future, I see myself continuing to visit mainly my favourite types of course but there will be an occasional venture onto newer creations, all of which I wish the best too.


Horses for courses I guess.


Atb



 

[Sam Andrews]

Chart Hills is a half decent course as is Remedy Oak. Wisley and Queenwood aren't great designs but are kept immaculately.

Half decent is about right on Chart Hills. Its main issue is that it is built on Kent clay, so is an absolute bog in the winter, suffers badly from frost and, because the green staff has been cut, is creaking in terms of conditioning. Many of the signature bunkers are a shambles, lots of others are GUR and the rest have been filled with unplayable builder's sand. It is a crying shame because with a sympathetic eye to refresh it, Chart Hills could offer a grand day out. It needs somebody with some cash to buy it and invest thereafter.

[Marty Bonnar]

The Duke's at St Andrews is a decent enough track. Who knows, maybe even the new St Andrews International might even be passable.
What on earth is going on at the Donald Ross Memorials at Heartlands though?

F.

[JJShanley]

The Duke's at St Andrews is a decent enough track. Who knows, maybe even the new St Andrews International might even be passable.
What on earth is going on at the Donald Ross Memorials at Heartlands though?

F.

I played the Duke's at St. Andrews in June 2014.  I'd recommend it to anyone visiting.

[Sean_A]

See what I mean?  A lot of wishy washy stuff with nobody coming out and declaring stars of the show.  LOch Lomond seems to remain the king of the heap by some distance and yet it still (after countless amounts of work) has drainage problems.  I find it incredible that a much better job hasn't been done in GB&I with inland courses. 


Ciao

I played a day after they received 5cm of rain, and while the place was wet, it certainly wasn't unplayable, in fact, I thought it had drained very well. No standing water, and very few places that required a casual water drop. The other times, the course played great. Granted I wouldn't go there in the winter months, but then again, there are a number of courses that close for the winter, so I wouldn't penalise them for this.

Tim

IMO if a course is open in winter then it should be playable in winter.  Given GB&I has a 12 month golfing season, not being in decent nick in the winter is a major drawback directly effecting the fun factor...so of course that would effect my views on the quality of the course.

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

I do like Loch Lomond but it's hard to argue that it isn't more about the setting than the golf itself. There are some strong holes but there's some less exciting stuff out there too. And, of course, the exclusivity gives it a boost.

[Tom Kelly]

Sean, I think you need to give Loch Lomond abit of slack on the drainage given it's located in one of the wettest areas of the UK and on low lying land, next to a lake. They must have spent tens of thousands of pounds on drainage till now to get it to where it is and will keep having to renew/repair and improve the system....but then we get into the issue of whether it was suitable land to build on in the first place.


---


Personally I really enjoyed The Oxfordshire, it's not my usual cup of tea or GCA's preferred style but the heroic shots are great fun and the open exposed nature of the site ensures the wind makes for abit variety, but granted it is a tough course.




I think the lack of available or cheaply available land is the main problem we have had. The land price generally seem to lead to either very cheaply built courses usually on very unsuitable land and usually attracting new golfers or inexperienced golfers that want what they see on tv....water usually forms part of the equation. Or we get really high end courses that are often after a tournament to give them the prestige they need/require to attract business, meaning long and tough 'US style' courses. If they tried to go down the route of competing with the Sunningdales/Wokings etc they would have their work cut out to offer financial parity being a proprietary business and with the lack of history and tradition it would be a hard sell. The finances seem to be the key. In order to survive they need to differentiate themselves from the competition and that usually means superflous bling which isn't the flavour of the month on this website.


All that said I do see so many courses that could/should be better with a bit of extra care and thought being introduced into the original design. I think it struck me most on my visit to New Zealand GC, seeing first hand all of the fantastic swales and bumps, simple deceptions and hidden features which make it so compelling. Being on such flat land, I would guess that most of them are man-made and so many of these could be used at courses all over the country on all types of ground to improve them with minimal costs to the course and the maintenance budget.

[Sean_A]

Sean, I think you need to give Loch Lomond abit of slack on the drainage given it's located in one of the wettest areas of the UK and on low lying land, next to a lake. They must have spent tens of thousands of pounds on drainage till now to get it to where it is and will keep having to renew/repair and improve the system....but then we get into the issue of whether it was suitable land to build on in the first place.


---


Personally I really enjoyed The Oxfordshire, it's not my usual cup of tea or GCA's preferred style but the heroic shots are great fun and the open exposed nature of the site ensures the wind makes for abit variety, but granted it is a tough course.




I think the lack of available or cheaply available land is the main problem we have had. The land price generally seem to lead to either very cheaply built courses usually on very unsuitable land and usually attracting new golfers or inexperienced golfers that want what they see on tv....water usually forms part of the equation. Or we get really high end courses that are often after a tournament to give them the prestige they need/require to attract business, meaning long and tough 'US style' courses. If they tried to go down the route of competing with the Sunningdales/Wokings etc they would have their work cut out to offer financial parity being a proprietary business and with the lack of history and tradition it would be a hard sell. The finances seem to be the key. In order to survive they need to differentiate themselves from the competition and that usually means superflous bling which isn't the flavour of the month on this website.


All that said I do see so many courses that could/should be better with a bit of extra care and thought being introduced into the original design. I think it struck me most on my visit to New Zealand GC, seeing first hand all of the fantastic swales and bumps, simple deceptions and hidden features which make it so compelling. Being on such flat land, I would guess that most of them are man-made and so many of these could be used at courses all over the country on all types of ground to improve them with minimal costs to the course and the maintenance budget.

Tom

Sure, if I am paying 25 quid to play joe blow nowhere than fine...I give it a pass.  But I don't see why I shouldn't have very high expectations for a very highly ranked course in a 12 month golf cycle.  Its one thing if extraordinary weather conditions are to blame and quite another if a poor piece of land was chosen and/or sufficient care was not taken for proper drainage.  To me, drainage is one of the most important aspects of design.  The more I play golf, the more I am convinced presentation is just as important as design...they are hand in glove for the type of golf I value.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

the UK being a 12 month golfing country is a myth other than for links courses and those few inland lucky enough to be on free draining soil in a drier area. For the rest and this is the vast majority in the odd dry winter then yes you can get some good golf but in a normal winter golf is a muddy, bumpy experience filled with mats and winter greens.

Jon

[Matt Dawson]

Jon makes a very valid point that is sometimes overlooked in general discussion. Geographically the UK has quite a diversity in weather conditions..,admittedly not as wide as the U.S, but certainly notable.

Growing up playing parkland courses in the damp North-West, there was a noticeable difference when I moved to the South East, to heathland courses on drier sandy soil in Surrey and parts of East Anglia. No mats or bumpy temporary greens makes a big difference to the golfing experience

[Sean_A]

Sean,

the UK being a 12 month golfing country is a myth other than for links courses and those few inland lucky enough to be on free draining soil in a drier area. For the rest and this is the vast majority in the odd dry winter then yes you can get some good golf but in a normal winter golf is a muddy, bumpy experience filled with mats and winter greens. 
Jon

Jon

I fully accept that some courses are blessed with better soil than others...this is a big reason why those clubs are seen to have the best courses regardless of the design...conditions matter much more than the Tree House generally acknowledge.  And if a course is in poor nick during winter...which is essentially November through April (half the year!)...that sort of disadvantage is hard to overlook when clubs charge green fees during this period.  This situation is going to become more obvious in the coming years so clubs better start looking for ways to improve drainage.  All of which is one reason why so few modern inland courses have made any sort of splash in the rankings....the designs have not found good ways to overcome the less than ideal soil. 

Ciao

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