[Thomas Dai]

Depressions and wee hollows in front of greens have a variety of purposes including attempting to deceive the player with depth preception, removing surface water etc etc.


The Valley of Sin is possibly the most well known such feature, although it's a bit deeper than what I'm really getting at.


What would be some other good examples on other courses of such a feature? Photos would be helpful.


Atb


PS - for Jeff and Donal, in front of the green on the 16th at delightful Dunfanaghy (plus a couple of others there) would be an other example

[David_Tepper]

Thomas -

There a depression/swale in front of the 18th green at both Royal Dornoch and Golspie. At RD, it makes playing a run-up shot to the green a bit problematic. At Golspie, the depression is hidden from view while standing out in the fairway and it makes the green look a little closer than it actually is.

Sorry, no pics available (from me at least).

DT

[MCirba]

The 2nd hole at French Creek GC in PA has a wonderful scale in front of the green that really dictates play on the stunning par four.  I'm sure my buddy Joe Bausch has some good pics.

[Matt Frey, PGA]

No. 3 on PGA Golf Club's Wanamaker Course has a feature like this:



Also, No. 8 at Hyde Park in Cincinnati has a very interesting feature: a small mound directly in front of the green, but with depressions short of the green on either side of the mound. It didn't show up very well in these two photos due to the day's poor lighting, but it may have been may favorite feature on the golf course:

[Sean_A]

New Zealand has a few interesting hollows shy of greens.

#18



The 6th too has a great depression shy of the green...no pic.  13 too...


Castle Stuart has some doozies.

#6


#10
   

My favourite...#13..play is from the right.
 

Ciao

[RJ_Daley]

It seems that Gil Hanse is partial to them, as Craighead at Crail has similar to this posted pic of Castle Stuart.  There are really too many to recall of variations of pre-green humps, bumps, hollows, and noses, but I tend to like them as long as they aren't overdone if they are constructed.  Of course they are always more pleasing if you know they are basically lay-of-the-land original contours as nature formed them.  But, it seems to me that if it is a purposefully constructed and placed as a nose directly in front of a green that simply and basically deflects approach shots left or right generally to more trouble and hazards like water just one side of a green, and sand the other, with very penal recovery after the deflection, then I guess it gets over the top if the green isn't big enough to give the player a reasonable chance to fly the nose and get it stopped to a designed intentional area the architect envisions as 'one' option to reward a nice approach.  Anotherwords, it shouldn't get tediously penal and always too dicey.  The size and shape of the green behind the fore-green contours should make sense in relation to the quirk leading onto it.

[Niall C]

Some of those mentioned and pictures posted look more like swales and gullies rather than the minor depression and more subtle features that ATB is referring to, or at least I think he's referring to. I've mentioned before that the first at Machrihanish, there was/is a very shallow depression about 15/20 yards (?) short of the green as approached from the right side of the fairway. I was very conscious of it my first time there as I was hitting a 5 iron in and looking to land it about where the hollow was to allow for run. It put all sorts of uncertainty in my head because if I hit the down slope I would kick on further then anticipated and if I landed on the upslope the ball might pull up short. 15 years later when I next played I had to go looking for it as it wasn't in play at all.

Similar to shallow hollows is the small mound that Braid had a tendency to use to defend greens. The second at Killermont has one and so has the 16th at Gullane 3.

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for the examples and photos.


Interesting to observe how a gentle, subtle feature like a smooth, shallow, short grass hollow, sometimes combined with some other contouring, can influence play into a green.


There's a good example on the 1st at Saunton East. Invisible from more than 20-30 yds away but the effect in slowing down (or speeding up) the bounce of a low punchy shot aimed to land a bit short and trickle up to a front pin can be considerable.


With a few notable exceptions, as mentioned above, has the construction of features such as this generally gone from the game thesedays what with rangefinders, sat-watches, bigger machines and the dimise of the running/ground game and it's replacement by the soft and lush and fly shots all the way to the pin style of play?


More examples welcome.


Atb

[Matt Frey, PGA]

Thomas: I would say that the golf ball and wedge technology, more so that rangefinders, have helped diminish the ground game to an extent. It's easier to spin the ball on the green and avoid some of the quirky design features that we have been discussing. However, what most people do not realize is that, generally, those shots with lofted clubs are more difficult to pull off, resulting in frustration at times (myself included). When I was still giving lessons, I championed the bump and run from off the green and not only did it help my student's scores, but they had a lot of fun with it.

[John Cowden]

Agreed, Matt.   But won't the strategic merits of the swale/depression/hole in front of the green depend on the grass and maintenance?   Those I enjoy must be fast and firm.  Anything else is to be avoided or flown/escaped with a lofted club. 

[RJ_Daley]

I completely agree with that John.  If you are landing several yards short of a green that has either a depression or mound and it is chocolate pudding soil, and poor turf, all you get is a big splat, an embedded ball and no fun.  Then, hitting a lofted club or even trying to bump up or down on short cut grass and soft surface from there is more a drudgery than a fun shot.

[Sean_A]

Not so fast Dick.  In different seasons, the options may be different....nothing so bad about the character of course changing with weather and seasons so long as things don't get out of control.  In soft conditions treat like a bunker...in firm conditions there are options.  If I can't see the swale properly, I usually assume the shot through swale is more difficult than it seems.  If the ground isn't too firm and the wind not too strong at my back I will usually opt to fly the swale.  I need to be quite close to have any confidence of reading the swale for a runner.  Of course, many of the best swales must be taken on from the correct angle to run it or face the ball being shoved off line...hopefully into an awaiting bunker     



Ciao

[MCirba]

From the "Bausch Collection" hosted on Joe Logan's www.myphillygolf.com website here is a Gil Hanse drawing of the 2nd hole at French Creek as well as a photo of the hollow fronting the green.

[Thomas Dai]

Short grass hollows and depressions. Land short and roll through them? Land amongst them and hope? Putt? Bump-n-run? Land on an upslope and check the ball to a front pin? Fly the ball all the way? Options and variety. 


Same hole, different angle. Great location, wonderful beach. Bliss?


A natural feature probably but selected as a greensite by man and maybe enhanced a little along the way too. Asks questions of the player whilst being easy maintenance. Thoroughly nice.

atb

[Jay Mickle]

Here is the 9th at Pine Needles where the left side of the fairway is at green grade encouraging an approach from the left side of the fairway especially with front pin positions. As the swale drops away to the right a running ground shot that follows the mower lines to the center of the green is still a viable shot as the ball will run into the swale and be propelled out at about 30 degrees from the line of play and run to the middle of the green.

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