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Thomas Dai

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Re: What impact, on scoring, should a bunker have ?
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2015, 09:26:03 AM »
At the risk of jinxing myself, at Pine Tree, I often try to get my approach shot in a greenside bunker when I can't reach and hold the green. This is because I have much better success out of the bunker than I do on the 30-40 yard shot off a tight lie over a bunker to a small landing spot.


Would folk adopt this kind of strategy if bunkers were unraked?


Atb

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What impact, on scoring, should a bunker have ?
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2015, 05:06:04 PM »
At the risk of jinxing myself, at Pine Tree, I often try to get my approach shot in a greenside bunker when I can't reach and hold the green. This is because I have much better success out of the bunker than I do on the 30-40 yard shot off a tight lie over a bunker to a small landing spot.


Would folk adopt this kind of strategy if bunkers were unraked?
 
NO.
 
But, the problem with not raking the bunker lies within the realm of presenting the same test to every golfer in a medal play event and the possibility that those out early could make conditions very difficult for those out late.
 
While greens can speed up or slow down during the course of the day and the weather can change, none of those are within the competitors control.
 
How you leave a bunker is within the competitors control.
 
However, using large toothed rakes, ala Oakmont, might solve both problems.



Atb

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What impact, on scoring, should a bunker have ?
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2015, 05:08:56 PM »
Pat,


At the risk of jinxing myself, at Pine Tree, I often try to get my approach shot in a greenside bunker when I can't reach and hold the green. This is because I have much better success out of the bunker than I do on the 30-40 yard shot off a tight lie over a bunker to a small landing spot.
 
Mike,
 
That delicate little shot off of a very tight lie over an obstacle, bunker or water, seems to have gotten far more difficult as my hand/eye coordination has diminished.
 
I too prefer the bunker where the margin of error is much greater.



Cheers

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What impact, on scoring, should a bunker have ?
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2015, 10:58:17 AM »
Whilst appreciating that variety is nice, what do folks reckon should be the longest club that a decent player should be able to extract a ball with from a fairway sand bunker? Fairway metal? Long iron/hybrid? Mid-iron? Short iron? Wedge?

Atb

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What impact, on scoring, should a bunker have ?
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2015, 11:13:08 AM »
Whilst appreciating that variety is nice, what do folks reckon should be the longest club that a decent player should be able to extract a ball with from a fairway sand bunker? Fairway metal? Long iron/hybrid? Mid-iron? Short iron? Wedge?

Atb


all of the above.
you said it-variety
a bunker could be really penal  -demanding course management and patience-too many?-boring and not thught provoking once in
or tempting- especially to a better player, this extracting a possible bigger penalty-too many? not very thought provoking from the tee
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What impact, on scoring, should a bunker have ?
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2015, 01:15:55 PM »
Whilst appreciating that variety is nice, what do folks reckon should be the longest club that a decent player should be able to extract a ball with from a fairway sand bunker? Fairway metal? Long iron/hybrid? Mid-iron? Short iron? Wedge?

Atb


all of the above.
you said it-variety
a bunker could be really penal  -demanding course management and patience-too many?-boring and not thught provoking once in
or tempting- especially to a better player, this extracting a possible bigger penalty-too many? not very thought provoking from the tee


Sure, we don't want too many bunkers where even the most skilled golfers have no chance to pull off something special.  It just means that the bunker must be avoided at all costs and pros can do that with ease. Temptation must still be the goal.  That said, something special is not always about saving a par or bogey...sometimes its just a great shot to get a ball back in play. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What impact, on scoring, should a bunker have ?
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2015, 02:12:44 PM »
So variety in fine. No problem with that in principle.


To take things a little further, as a generalisation, and for discussion rather than construction purposes, what percentage of fairway bunkers should be get-outable for say a single figure hcp player or better with -


A fairway metal?
A long-iron/hybrid?
A mid-iron?
A short iron?
A wedge?
A splash out that can only go a few yards?


The total should add up to 100%!!!


Atb

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What impact, on scoring, should a bunker have ?
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2015, 03:43:43 PM »
So variety in fine. No problem with that in principle.


To take things a little further, as a generalisation, and for discussion rather than construction purposes, what percentage of fairway bunkers should be get-outable for say a single figure hcp player or better with -


A fairway metal?
A long-iron/hybrid?
A mid-iron?
A short iron?
A wedge?
A splash out that can only go a few yards?


The total should add up to 100%!!!


Atb

Can't one bunker does this? Depending on the lie?
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What impact, on scoring, should a bunker have ?
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2015, 04:53:46 PM »
Possibly if the lie is bad or your stance provides limitations but I'm looking more along the lines of the range of shots possible in large area, shallow, low lipped fairway bunkers vrs those that can be played from small size, steep sided ones with high lips and how many of each kind and those somewhere in the middle should be included within 18-holes.


If every fairway bunker on an 18-hole course comprised a large flat, shallow area with miniscule lips then that wouldn't provide much variety. Similarly if all the fairway bunkers were small size, steep sided with high lips.....and yes I realise that some courses are just like these extreme opposites, but what I'm trying to get at is what the range or spread or split of fairway bunker types might that would allow for a variety of possiblitlies and options and club choices for recovery play, whether that recovery play be aggressive or defensive or somewhere in between.


18-holes, 4 par-3's so over the remaining 14-holes what would be a good range or spread or split of fairway bunker types and type of club a player could use would seem a method of differentiating this.


Atb

Doug Siebert

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Re: What impact, on scoring, should a bunker have ?
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2015, 09:36:31 PM »
As I've suggested before here multiple times, I like the idea of using fluffy sand that encourages buried lies.  Good players generally fly the ball into bunkers, and will get some buried lies.  Poor players often roll the ball into bunkers, and will generally have a fairly clean lie.  That equalizes the bunker penalty somewhat, versus the current situation where a clean lie in a bunker is almost no penalty for a good player, but a huge (mostly psychological) penalty for the poor player.

From a buried lie in a fairway bunker, you will not be able to reach the green, but recovery and par is still quite possible.  It is enough of a penalty to make the player fear a fairway bunker in a way that good players no longer do, but isn't a guaranteed loss of stroke so prudent aggressiveness is still rewarded.  Around the green the buried lie is a test of game planning, to attempt to insure that your misses are in an appropriate location.  You aren't going to get up and down from a buried lie when you are short sided, but if you miss elsewhere and have a little green to work with, a well played shot will give you a good chance at making the following putt.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What impact, on scoring, should a bunker have ?
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2015, 10:11:42 PM »
As I've suggested before here multiple times, I like the idea of using fluffy sand that encourages buried lies.  Good players generally fly the ball into bunkers, and will get some buried lies.  Poor players often roll the ball into bunkers, and will generally have a fairly clean lie.  That equalizes the bunker penalty somewhat, versus the current situation where a clean lie in a bunker is almost no penalty for a good player, but a huge (mostly psychological) penalty for the poor player.

From a buried lie in a fairway bunker, you will not be able to reach the green, but recovery and par is still quite possible.  It is enough of a penalty to make the player fear a fairway bunker in a way that good players no longer do, but isn't a guaranteed loss of stroke so prudent aggressiveness is still rewarded.  Around the green the buried lie is a test of game planning, to attempt to insure that your misses are in an appropriate location.  You aren't going to get up and down from a buried lie when you are short sided, but if you miss elsewhere and have a little green to work with, a well played shot will give you a good chance at making the following putt.


I would disagree that a clean lie in a bunker is almost no penalty for a good player. The sand save leaders on tour are around 62%.  That's one of the best players in the world. A "good" player is going to average what? 25%?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What impact, on scoring, should a bunker have ?
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2015, 05:30:48 PM »
As I've suggested before here multiple times, I like the idea of using fluffy sand that encourages buried lies.  Good players generally fly the ball into bunkers, and will get some buried lies.  Poor players often roll the ball into bunkers, and will generally have a fairly clean lie.  That equalizes the bunker penalty somewhat, versus the current situation where a clean lie in a bunker is almost no penalty for a good player, but a huge (mostly psychological) penalty for the poor player.

From a buried lie in a fairway bunker, you will not be able to reach the green, but recovery and par is still quite possible.  It is enough of a penalty to make the player fear a fairway bunker in a way that good players no longer do, but isn't a guaranteed loss of stroke so prudent aggressiveness is still rewarded.  Around the green the buried lie is a test of game planning, to attempt to insure that your misses are in an appropriate location.  You aren't going to get up and down from a buried lie when you are short sided, but if you miss elsewhere and have a little green to work with, a well played shot will give you a good chance at making the following putt.


I would disagree that a clean lie in a bunker is almost no penalty for a good player. The sand save leaders on tour are around 62%.  That's one of the best players in the world. A "good" player is going to average what? 25%?


Compare with the their up and down percentage from the greenside rough they'd otherwise be in. Top pros are better than 62% but not all that much better. Good players who are 25% in sand saves are probably only 35-40% in up and down from greenside rough.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What impact, on scoring, should a bunker have ?
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2015, 09:18:09 PM »
Rob & Doug,


The statistics are almost irrelevant.


What is relevant is that a number of golfers prefer bunkers to the areas surrounding bunkers.


I'd rather be in a green side bunker than in the rough short of the bunker where I have to play over the bunker to the green, unless I have a 30 or 40 yard bunker shot

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What impact, on scoring, should a bunker have ?
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2015, 09:35:19 PM »
Rob & Doug,


The statistics are almost irrelevant.


What is relevant is that a number of golfers prefer bunkers to the areas surrounding bunkers.


I'd rather be in a green side bunker than in the rough short of the bunker where I have to play over the bunker to the green, unless I have a 30 or 40 yard bunker shot


I'll take a pitch out of the rough over a bunker shot any day. I grew up playing on a cousre that had deep grass bunkers. My father called them elephant ears. I learned a lot playing out of those bunkers with a 56.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What impact, on scoring, should a bunker have ? New
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2015, 09:47:31 AM »
 ???


Don't like the fluffy sand at all. Can't remember ever thinking bunkers that plug are preferable . If anything , plugs and buried lies nullifies any skill that the player brings into the condition.

As to best types relative to severity  viva la difference. 

« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 09:51:10 AM by archie_struthers »

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