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Bill_McBride

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Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2015, 09:36:21 PM »
There are plenty of strategic courses with hazards in play from the tee.


This thread is pathetic. A guy criticizes a sacred cow and the most substantive response is "Being on short grass doesn't mean you'll make par!" You all get a gold star for your ability to recite GCA cliches. Now let's talk architecture:


Can anyone actually rebut Frank's criticism of the course with specific examples of how Rustic Canyon is more interesting from the tee than he thinks? Or does he have a point that Rustic Canyon, for all its strengths, isn't a particularly interesting driving course? I really can't think of a compelling driving hole out there myself - I mean, 14 is pretty good but it's nothing I haven't seen on an Art Hills course.


BS Jason, there were many specific rebuttals of Frank's one round opinion. 

Scott Weersing

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Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2015, 10:29:49 PM »



Ok I will try to defend Rustic Canyon and that there are preferred sides of the fairway to be on. For example, no. 2 fairway is very wide, but it is a better angle to come in from the left side. And no. 3 has lots of options for the drive in that you can go left, right or straight at the green.


I would conceded no. 5 fairway is open and boring but still, the right side of the fairway is a better angle for your second shot. I like the options on no. 7 where you can hit hybrid straight or driver left which then leaves a short shot into the green. I miss when you could drive it over the creek bed on no. 7.


The back nine does not have as many interesting options but no. 10 you want to be down the left to avoid the bunkers on the right with your second shot. No. 12 has lots of options for a drive but the green is the thing for that hole, see previous threads. Sure no. 14 would look like a hole in Florida if you had to drive over a lake and it was more interesting when the tree was still growing.


Rustic is still a course that people love while others could just leave it. And that's ok.

Greg Chambers

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Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2015, 11:19:54 PM »
I didn't get the hype the first time I played it either.  But after many plays, the course continues to unveil its subtleties, time and time again.  For me, this is the sign of very solid architecture. 


Is it great? Debatable.


Is it really good golf? Absolutely
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2015, 11:26:18 PM »
I don't get why both sides cant be right....

Some prefer wide open spaces with more subtle angles and options.

Others prefer the course to dictate what the best play is and be more demanding of every shot.

Different strokes for different folks...

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2015, 12:19:53 AM »
#1 is a compelling drive. You want to put yourself in position to properly attack the scar bunker that fronts the green or play properly to the right side, to have a chance to attack the hole with your third.


#18 is a compelling drive. If you go up the right at all, you are down in the briar patch with Brer Rabbit. If you stray too far left, however, you are impeded by some wee trees.


And every other drive is compelling, but I doubt that you want me to address them all. I don't think we picked on Frank at all. We didn't call him names, tell him that his opinions were rubbish, or anything else scurrilous.


There's a reason it's a sacred cow. In my case, it had me at "Hello."
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2015, 12:45:49 AM »
Here's a hole by hole for fairway width and strategy. I'd rather everyone go out and discover for themselves, but here's my thoughts on the place.


1- 70 yards wide but plays 50ish due to angle of the tee shot. For long hitters it is risk/reward as a drive down the right opens up long approaches into the left to right sloping green, but in order to get this preferred angle you must flirt with the hazard down the right off the tee.


2- As mentioned already, the left-side plateau (30 yds wide and bordered by OB left) is preferred for most hole locations as it opens up the view of the green as well as allowing the golfer to not approach with as much of a downhill landing area on the approach. Back right hole location I prefer approaching from the far right of the fairway personally due to the knob in the middle of that green, but that is open for debate.


3- More obvious, plenty of choice, even for those who are trying to drive the green. Bunkers "pinch" the fairway to 30 yds on the right and 25 on the left, although laying up to the right distance will allow for more room. This hole calls for more in strategic decision-making than execution.


5- 50 yards wide. Generous but I doubt more than 80% of golfers still manage to find the fairway. Any fewer and things may slow down here as there is a wash to carry for the layup. Remembering that wind can blow both ways at Rustic and that this is a 3-shot par 5 for 95%+ of golfers this tee shot is more of a break. Still slightly angled and disorienting so that the golfer does not stand on that tee with total confidence.


7- 50 yards wide but if a golfer is more precise they can set themselves up with an advantage to those who blindly aim for the fairway. Rumples in the fairway can leave some interesting lies and can be cleared if the golf hits their tee shot farther down the fairway or closer to the wash. Also as previously mentioned a nice option to drive across the wash also exists- a great recent improvement to the hole.


9- Another 50 yard wide fairway, although this is perhaps the least interesting one strategically on the course. I won't pretend there's something here when there's not, this hole is about the green. Still appropriate for a par 5 where you can let one fly.


10- 45 yards between the pot bunker and the large bunker left, but a wider fairway short of the pot bunker. It may seem insignificant, but just wait until you hit into that sucker, it will play into your mind on that tee from there on out! Challenging the pot bunker and OB right can allow the golfer to cut off some yardage and give the 50 yard long green a go, but it takes two precise shots to pull that off. Also I did not give the 10th green much shot in my first dozen plays at RC, but now think it's one of the best out there. Tremendous elevation change from front to back but subtle and maddening in nature.


11- 53 yards wide but plays narrower due to the angle (from the Black and Blue tees). Playing close to the hazard left allows for a much shorter approach and on a long uphill par 4 the advantage is important to have. They could cut the rough to fairway height between 11 and 12 and it would not be a detriment to the strategy imposed by the tee shot. A very clear risk/reward.


12- 70 yards wide. Perhaps more of a mind game... It's a personal favorite and perhaps the closest comp is 18 at TOC in some ways. Distance and direction control is important so the golfer can leave the desired angle/yardage depending on pin position. Long hitters can give it a go and downwind irons can run through the fairway- a place where you don't want to approach some pins from.


13- A 60 yard wide landing zone with the central bunker leaving 30 yards of fairway on the left and 20 yards on the right. Keep your ball between the bunker and OB right (30 yards wide including rough) and the green may be within reach. At the very least your reward is a shorter layup that won't have to deal with the flanking fairway bunkers as much, allowing the golfer to choose the correct side of the fairway for the day's hole location.


14- A true cape hole drive. The fairway can be 100+ yards wide depending on angle and distance of tee shot, but you must pick your line correctly. You can probably figure out a lot more in person than I could describe for this one.


16- Probably the second least strategic hole to #9. Fairway is under 50 yards wide and with trouble on both sides it's one you have to hit. For the most downhill tee shot on the course in the prevailing wind, I don't know of many golfers who don't think this is a demanding enough tee shot. The approach has Pinehurst-esque elements and can be played in multiple ways- definitely a second shot golf hole, assuming you've executed on the first.


18- No more than 40 yards wide unless you can clear the right fairway bunker, 18 has always seemed a demanding drive to me. Carrying the right fairway bunker is fool's gold anyway as there's only about 5 more yards of width beyond (I believe some width was lost in the flood). In any case, a ball that hugs the right side of the fairway will give the golfer a clearer view of the green on the approach.




Just one guy's thoughts after dozens of plays. Outside of 9 & 16 there is very definitely a position A on every fairway. Missing that spot and still being in the fairway makes for a tougher, but still do-able shot. Recovery is maybe the most enjoyable element of golf, so having that opportunity so frequently makes Rustic fun time and again on repeat plays.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2015, 02:44:57 AM »
Alex suns up the strategic nature beautifully.  I certainly fall into the group of Rustic fanatics because after 30+ rounds, I have experienced a different course every time.  It is not an overly difficult course, but not every great course needs to be Oakmont or Bethpage Black difficult.  One of the subtle features is the scoring price paid for being too aggressive on approaches that end up short side or above the pin--there are quite a few holes where careful attention to being below the hole matters.  I have seen quite a few serious players walk away slightly over par, but very close to going deep simply because they pin hunted and left far too many approaches above the hole.

Scott Little

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2015, 03:09:02 AM »
I will disagree with some as I think this is a fantastic thread.  I have lived in Moorpark for the past year as I completed graduate studies at Pepperdine and will honestly say that I moved here, rather than the SF/Conejo Valley, for the opportunity to play this course.  As others have stated, it is a different course every time I play due to the wind, pins, firmness of fairways, etc.  The first time I played RC (four years ago when I was stationed in the high desert), I thought that it was a bombers delight, but as I played more regularly, I learned that positioning is more important than distance.  Hitting to a left pin on #11 from the left side of the fairway is one of the most visually challenging shots I have found.  Trying to hold a front left pin from the right side of #2 is damn near impossible, especially when playing downwind.  I can clear the wash on #7, but is the risk worth the reward, especially with the craziness of that green and having to pick a wedge from a tight lie.  Tee shots become more challenging when trying to hit spots rather than just blasting away. Since I run/bike the valley north of the course, what many golfer miss and I think about constantly, is that there are nine more pristine holes waiting to be created past the green on #13.  But golf courses, like any art form, are judged by the individual and I can understand why some may not enjoy RC as much as I do.  As I am moving to Fort McCoy, Wisconsin in the next month, I will share the two things that I have truly appreciated about RC during my time in Moorpark.
1.  The staff has no problem allowing me to come out during twilight with my 6 year old daughter for nine holes.  To be able to introduce her to the game and hope that she will be as passionate as I am as she grows is invaluable.
2.  I earn a federal paycheck and being able to play a quality course at a reasonable price is rare.  Having lived in Hawaii, Virginia, Texas, Georgia, and Barstow :(  over the past decade, I have not found a course with the complexity that RC offers for double the price that RC charges. 
And for those, and others, I am truly thankful.[size=78%]  [/size]

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2015, 09:55:31 AM »
#1 is a compelling drive. You want to put yourself in position to properly attack the scar bunker that fronts the green or play properly to the right side, to have a chance to attack the hole with your third.


#18 is a compelling drive. If you go up the right at all, you are down in the briar patch with Brer Rabbit. If you stray too far left, however, you are impeded by some wee trees.


And every other drive is compelling, but I doubt that you want me to address them all. I don't think we picked on Frank at all. We didn't call him names, tell him that his opinions were rubbish, or anything else scurrilous.


There's a reason it's a sacred cow. In my case, it had me at "Hello."


Nobody called him a moron.  That was nice.   And I understand a lot more about the course now. 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 10:04:22 AM by Bill_McBride »

Frank Sekulic

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2015, 06:59:15 PM »
I am going to head up the Rustic after the 1st of the year and take another look and see if I feel any differently about the course.








John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2015, 09:26:18 PM »
In order to answer your question we need to know how well you played, did you shoot to your handicap, very few do this at Rustic the first time out.

Pete, very few do anywhere the first time out.  After all, one "plays to their handicap" a mere 1/4th or 1/5th of the time and it is far more likely to shoot a good score in familiar surroundings.

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2015, 11:56:03 PM »
I am going to head up the Rustic after the 1st of the year and take another look and see if I feel any differently about the course.
Play Lost Canyon down the road so you have something to compare with Rustic. You will definitely see the difference.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

J Cabarcos

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2015, 06:10:55 PM »
I heard from multiple sources that Lost Canyon currently has abysmal conditioning. Can anybody verify that?  I read that one of their courses was shuttered (Shadow) and the ownership underwent bankruptcy reorganization.   I will be heading out to LA at month's end and plan playing 36 holes at Rustic Canyon, unless I can find a solid course to play a second round.  Last time I played Rustic & Lost Canyon was eight years ago.  Back then I enjoyed both very much.  Any suggestions where else to tee it up in LA?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2015, 06:13:41 PM »
I heard from multiple sources that Lost Canyon currently has abysmal conditioning. Can anybody verify that?  I read that one of their courses was shuttered (Shadow) and the ownership underwent bankruptcy reorganization.   I will be heading out to LA at month's end and plan playing 36 holes at Rustic Canyon, unless I can find a solid course to play a second round.  Last time I played Rustic & Lost Canyon was eight years ago.  Back then I enjoyed both very much.  Any suggestions where else to tee it up in LA?

I heard Trump has the best course in the country right there in the LA area,  on the ocean, not too far from Long Beach.  ;D

Must be, they shoot golf commercials there all the time.

J Cabarcos

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2015, 06:26:56 PM »
Trump's course in LA is narrow shooting gallery where you got to wear a hard hat.  Who ever built the property before Trump purchased it squeezed 18 staggered holes on land fit for 9.  If I am not mistaken, I believe Pete Dye was the original architect.


Isn't there a nice Crenshaw Coores course in greater LA I can tee it up, or is Rustic the only public access game in town?

Jordan Standefer

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Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2015, 06:28:07 PM »
I heard from multiple sources that Lost Canyon currently has abysmal conditioning. Can anybody verify that?

I can verify.  Abysmal would be putting in lightly.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2015, 07:21:43 PM »
Trump's course in LA is narrow shooting gallery where you got to wear a hard hat.  Who ever built the property before Trump purchased it squeezed 18 staggered holes on land fit for 9.  If I am not mistaken, I believe Pete Dye was the original architect.


Isn't there a nice Crenshaw Coores course in greater LA I can tee it up, or is Rustic the only public access game in town?


Trump is narrow, but more maddening is how soft/green it is for a seaside course. I believe the course was Pete Dye in name, but not sure how much input he actually had (may have been another Dye running the show). I have no doubt that that course would test Mr. Sekulic's driving abilities.




One of the most important discoveries that I have had as a golfer over the years is the realization that penalties don't only come in 1 or 2 strokes or even half strokes. 

The most interesting penalties are the 1/4 and 1/8 stroke penalties that by the end of the round add up to a big number.  Subtle penalties that add up.  Courses of this nature have increasingly become my favorites. Rustic is one of them.


Very true. There are a couple of near-stroke penalties on the course (that fairway bunker on 10 for instance), but the opportunity to get back into position is almost always there for the more subtle penalties. It just often requires a great shot- the kind that you are more likely to remember from a round of golf should you manage to pull it off!




DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2015, 09:27:32 PM »
One of the most important discoveries that I have had as a golfer over the years is the realization that penalties don't only come in 1 or 2 strokes or even half strokes. 

The most interesting penalties are the 1/4 and 1/8 stroke penalties that by the end of the round add up to a big number.  Subtle penalties that add up.  Courses of this nature have increasingly become my favorites. Rustic is one of them.
Alright, who hijacked my friend Shivas's account?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

George Pazin

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Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2015, 01:57:22 PM »
One of the most important discoveries that I have had as a golfer over the years is the realization that penalties don't only come in 1 or 2 strokes or even half strokes. 

The most interesting penalties are the 1/4 and 1/8 stroke penalties that by the end of the round add up to a big number.  Subtle penalties that add up.  Courses of this nature have increasingly become my favorites. Rustic is one of them.
Alright, who hijacked my friend Shivas's account?


 :) I had the same reaction.


Frank, there are certainly hundreds of posts about RC in the archives. There was one thread in particular where, IIRC, David Wigler posited much the same as you, and the discussion was voluminous. I will try to see if I can find it and bump it for you.


Here are some links to earlier threads (most are really old):


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,2039.msg39700.html#msg39700


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,12817.msg218088.html#msg218088


I haven't found the specific thread I'm thinking of. Perhaps David Moriarty remembers it. David W said something to the effect of "RC is the best course from 50 yards in I've played in years, but not demanding enough off the tee to warrant it's lofty rating..." Of course, I paraphrased that...
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 02:04:24 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2015, 02:45:35 PM »
A quick question:  Relative affordability aside, which if any of the following courses would you rate as being "greater" than Rustic Canyon:  Kingsley Club, Glens Falls, Country Club of Troy, Talking Stick North, Wild Horse, Cuscowilla, Lulu and Desert Forest?
 
Not a trick question at all, just a random sampling of diverse courses that are perhaps in the same "league?"  I'm okay with a "none" answer. 
 
Bogey
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 03:01:12 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2015, 04:00:29 PM »
A quick question:  Relative affordability aside, which if any of the following courses would you rate as being "greater" than Rustic Canyon:  Kingsley Club, Glens Falls, Country Club of Troy, Talking Stick North, Wild Horse, Cuscowilla, Lulu and Desert Forest?
 
Not a trick question at all, just a random sampling of diverse courses that are perhaps in the same "league?"  I'm okay with a "none" answer. 
 
Bogey

Bogey great question.

I've always wondered if Rustic doesn't hugely benefit from being near the public-golf wasteland that is the extended LA area. I suspect if it was in the same position as a Wild Horse, it would hardly gather half the attention it currently does.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2015, 05:07:01 PM »
These threads about how Rustic Canyon is so overrated are always somewhat puzzling to me.  Unless I missed something, at this point Rustic isn't really rated at all in the major National lists, is it? And when Doak and Ran gave it a 7, no one included it on their "off by two" list, did they?  So what exactly is the issue here?  Where is it overrated, and by whom? And why do you guys care so much?

From the very beginning it was clear the course would be polarizing, and it has been.  Many of us who enjoy the course seem to have made peace with this, but not so with some of you who just don't get it.  Have you considered that maybe it's you, and that the course just isn't you cup of tea?

I've always wondered if Rustic doesn't hugely benefit from being near the public-golf wasteland that is the extended LA area. I suspect if it was in the same position as a Wild Horse, it would hardly gather half the attention it currently does.
Interesting theory, Kalen. But do you really think that those who appreciate Rustic do so because they lack exposure to excellent golf courses outside of the greater Los Angeles area? In my experience, that doesn't really match the profile of the usual Rustic advocate.  After all, in his review Ran compared Rustic to the Old Course, not Tierra Rejada.  An extreme example perhaps, but not an unusual one. Rustic gets a lot of local play, but many of its strongest advocates are as well traveled as any and more so than most.  (Except for me, of course. I never go anywhere.)
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Peter Pallotta

Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2015, 05:27:28 PM »
I'd like to get back to whether Shivas' account has been hacked. It's either that or Dave's golfing skills and go for broke approach have abandoned him in old age and he is now using game improvement irons and R-shafted Callyway 2 woods off the tee. (Of course, it may be just that his sense of humour is much subtler than I remember.)
P

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2015, 05:33:03 PM »
A quick question:  Relative affordability aside, which if any of the following courses would you rate as being "greater" than Rustic Canyon:  Kingsley Club, Glens Falls, Country Club of Troy, Talking Stick North, Wild Horse, Cuscowilla, Lulu and Desert Forest?
 
Not a trick question at all, just a random sampling of diverse courses that are perhaps in the same "league?"  I'm okay with a "none" answer. 
 
Bogey


This was a better question before the edit. Hendren was banned from Max's, who knew?


To answer the question, of the two I have played Rustic is far superior to Cuscowilla and Wild Horse.  One of the great mysteries of the Golfweek Rater experience is how a guy can go play Rustic and turn in a crap score.  The "members", the setting, the architecture, and the price can't be beat.  I love the place so much I took a bud all the way out there for the only poker/golf trip of my life.  He loved Rustic more than even the Commerce, where he hit a bad beat in the first hour.  This guy is no Indiana dummy, he even said it was more scenic than Shadow Creek.  I'll never forget that my response was that Brad Klein didn't like the view of the houses and his response was "Who the #&%@ is Brad Klein."

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon (What am I missing?)
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2015, 05:45:36 PM »
John, I thought it best to avoid any nastygrams, but I don't mind being outed as a blackballee.  Junior varsity is nothing to be ashamed of if it's the best one can do.
 
Gotta love this quote from David:  "... not so with some of you who just don't get it."
 
I have Rustic Canyon as a "6" whatever the heck that means.  I'd sure like for someone to tell me what the "get it" threshold is.  I don't like being a dummy, especially publicly.  This is damaging to my budding friendship with Tom Doak. 
 
Regardless, when all else fails and things get a little tired on GCA it sure is fun to take a poke at the Rustic Canyon apologists every year or so.  They're always quick to jump in the boat.
 
I so wish the course was nearby - this I know:  It would be plenty good enough for me to play regularly if I ever resume playing regularly.
 
Mike   
 
Definition:  Apologist:  a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial.
 
 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 05:58:39 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....